MP7+Medic Perk

[-=AG=- Avery]

The MP7 does a fantastic job of killing crawlers, clots, bloats and gorefasts. I really don't see where you people are having trouble with it. If you're getting surrounded by 3 things and dying frequently, that's a situational awareness problem on your part, not a problem with the gun itself.

I have little to no problems with my rank 4 medic while using that gun. If your biggest complaints are about the recoil and the reload animation, pick your shots better. Just because it has a high rate of fire doesn't mean you should be unloading 5 to 10 rounds into a crawler when 1 to 2 bullets decaps anything less than a siren. That thing takes off heads just as easily as the Bullpup (been doing this in hard/suicidal). If you need to run away because you're getting surrounded, swap to the knife and run away. Reload at a safe distance instead of reloading while backpedaling from a crowd of mobs that are going to kill you.

Ok dude your beginning is ok minus on harder diffuculties you can't decap in less then 5-10 bullets. You realize that even if you just tap the mouse you can't shoot 1 bullet you have to fire 2 and thats if like you barely touch the mouse button.

Sadly, 9_6 and Shoe, your long, condescending posts still did not manage to answer the single question I posted earlier, upon which answer the entire foundation of your argument rests:

Why should the medic be so good at killing stuff?

As previously stated we don't want a "SUPER PLASMA BAZOOKA" we would like something that allows us to kill/damage low level zeds. 9_6 was busy answering more important questions.

 

[DocDave]

As previously stated we don't want a "SUPER PLASMA BAZOOKA" we would like something that allows us to kill/damage low level zeds. 9_6 was busy answering more important questions.

This is a straw man argument, I never claimed you wanted a "SUPER PLASMA BAZOOKA." The question is not wether the medic should get a "SUPER PLASMA BAZOOKA" as the answer to that is obvious.

The question is,

Why should the medic be so good at killing stuff?

But now I have a second question, about "something that allows us to kill/damage low level zeds."

Seriously? You can't kill/damage low level zeds with the mp7m?

I am trying hard to resist the classic "LEARN 2 PLAY NUB" in response to this.

On the other hand, if the MP7 is so horrible, sell it and get something better. Plenty of people find it an excellent tool, myself included.

 

[Mr. Shoe]

Sadly, 9_6 and Shoe, your long, condescending posts still did not manage to answer the single question I posted earlier, upon which answer the entire foundation of your argument rests:

Why should the medic be so good at killing stuff?

As previously stated about ten times, he should be able to run faster. And actually kill the low end zeds while running, without dying.

I mentioned the idea of the medic shouldn't be high health just because he gives health. In fact, most medics in games have lower health.

In fact, make him even less damage oriented by taking away his damage resistance, give more to the bezerker.

Don't increase damage of the gun, ever. Only accuracy. And then take away the recoil. Where in the hell does an MP7 ever generate that kind of recoil, in fact, WHERE DOES ANY ****ING SUB MACHINE GUN GENERATE RECOIL AT ALL.

More accuracy and less recoil isn't damage you ****ing fool. Where do you keep getting that? It's only going to serve to not waste ammo and thus money as a level 6 medic in suicidal, which can be avoided with ANY other class. It's going to serve not let make usually the last teammate alive, the medic, die as he flees.



Oh, and BTW, you act as if all of us who worked so ****ing hard don't deserve to also have a weapon that gets more verily affected. Why do we get ganked with a gun that required far more skill than the point and click weapons that all the other lvl 6 guys get?

 

[NekoChrissy]

As previously stated about ten times, he should be able to run faster. And actually kill the low end zeds while running, without dying.

I mentioned the idea of the medic shouldn't be high health just because he gives health. In fact, most medics in games have lower health.

In fact, make him even less damage oriented by taking away his damage resistance, give more to the bezerker.

Don't increase damage of the gun, ever. Only accuracy. And then take away the recoil. Where in the hell does an MP7 ever generate that kind of recoil, in fact, WHERE DOES ANY ****ING SUB MACHINE GUN GENERATE RECOIL AT ALL.

More accuracy and less recoil isn't damage you ****ing fool. Where do you keep getting that? It's only going to serve to not waste ammo and thus money as a level 6 medic in suicidal, which can be avoided with ANY other class. It's going to serve not let make usually the last teammate alive, the medic, die as he flees.



Oh, and BTW, you act as if all of us who worked so ****ing hard don't deserve to also have a weapon that gets more verily affected. Why do we get ganked with a gun that required far more skill than the point and click weapons that all the other lvl 6 guys get?

All the Field Medics want is to be able to shoot a Crawler or Clot without their rounds shooting into the ground or around it.

 

[DocDave]

As previously stated about ten times, he should be able to run faster. And actually kill the low end zeds while running, without dying.

He runs as fast as anyone, and if you really need to run, don't fire the mp7m. He doesn't actually need to run faster since the latest patch, but I'll let you figure out why that is. APPARENTLY THE MP7M IS NOT MADE FOR KILLING EFFECTIVELY. PERHAPS IT HAS SOME OTHER, HIDDEN PURPOSE YOU HAVE YET TO DISCOVER.

I mentioned the idea of the medic shouldn't be high health just because he gives health. In fact, most medics in games have lower health.

Everyone has 100 health. Where does this come from? They're not going to change that.

In fact, make him even less damage oriented by taking away his damage resistance, give more to the bezerker.

Damage resistance makes him survival oriented, not damage oriented. As a side note, his toughness allows him to save teammates big zeds are charging at.

Don't increase damage of the gun, ever. Only accuracy. And then take away the recoil.

An increase in accuracy and recoil IS an effective increase in damage.

More accuracy and less recoil isn't damage you ****ing fool. Where do you keep getting that?

Wow. Do you live on some planet where there are no guns? Yes, I can guarantee you that more accuracy and less recoil is going to result in more damage.

It's going to serve not let make usually the last teammate alive, the medic, die as he flees.

What exactly is the problem with the medic being well-armored and dying last? Seems a desirable and thus also realistic scenario.

Oh, and BTW, you act as if all of us who worked so ****ing hard

Worked so hard? I don't see "Mr. Shoe" on the TWI payroll.

don't deserve to also have a weapon that gets more verily affected. Why do we get ganked with a gun that required far more skill than the point and click weapons that all the other lvl 6 guys get?

The awesomeness of the new medic gun is equivalent to giving the berserker "throwing axes." What we had to previously do at melee range, heal, is now possible at a distance. What an amazing improvement. And now people complain the medics don't do enough damage with this wonderful new tool? If you do not see the "more verily affected" in this, you should be banned from ever playing medic again.

 

[Mr. Shoe]

He runs as fast as anyone, and if you really need to run, don't fire the mp7m. He doesn't actually need to run faster since the latest patch, but I'll let you figure out why that is. APPARENTLY THE MP7M IS NOT MADE FOR KILLING EFFECTIVELY. PERHAPS IT HAS SOME OTHER, HIDDEN PURPOSE YOU HAVE YET TO DISCOVER.



Everyone has 100 health. Where does this come from? They're not going to change that.



Damage resistance makes him survival oriented, not damage oriented. As a side note, his toughness allows him to save teammates big zeds are charging at.



An increase in accuracy and recoil IS an effective increase in damage.



Wow. Do you live on some planet where there are no guns? Yes, I can guarantee you that more accuracy and less recoil is going to result in more damage.



What exactly is the problem with the medic being well-armored and dying last? Seems a desirable and thus also realistic scenario.



Worked so hard? I don't see "Mr. Shoe" on the TWI payroll.



The awesomeness of the new medic gun is equivalent to giving the berserker "throwing axes." What we had to previously do at melee range, heal, is now possible at a distance. What an amazing improvement. And now people complain the medics don't do enough damage with this wonderful new tool? If you do not see the "more verily affected" in this, you should be banned from ever playing medic again.

You are foolish. End of story.

As a side note, read some literature to understand things better.

 

[DocDave]

You are foolish. End of story.

As a side note, read some literature to understand things better.

Yes, personal insults are a perfectly good sustitute for an argument. Feel free to come back when you have something worthwhile to say in response.

 

[Mr. Shoe]

Yes, personal insults are a perfectly good sustitute for an argument. Feel free to come back when you have something worthwhile to say in response.

No, that was my summarizing of your post, which seemed to take very long, yet had no point.

Just basically saying 'no your opinion is wrong' is being a dumb flamer, especially when its divided on agreement amongst a subject. Just because you're polite doesn't mean you're right.

Why don't you instead, try suggesting other things instead of ruining a thread?

 

[Lukkas]

Take this with a grain of salt, as I really haven't played very much with the MP7, but there's a reason for that.

I simply find it highly annoying to actually use. It has awful recoil compared to basically any other gun I've used in KF. I rarely play medic (I'm L.4 in it, from healing teammates when playing a different perk), and pretty much only when fighting Patty. In those rounds, I've been buying the MP7, but I pretty much don't use it unless I need to fire morphine into people. It's very light, so it's easy to carry a less annoying, more damaging gun.

If I had my way however, I'd have the gun with drastically reduced recoil, even if it meant a decrease in actual damage. Not being able to hit with that little peashooter is just infuriating. I'd rather use my knife. Anyone else feel the same? Less recoil but less damage too?

 

[Mr. Shoe]

Take this with a grain of salt, as I really haven't played very much with the MP7, but there's a reason for that.

I simply find it highly annoying to actually use. It has awful recoil compared to basically any other gun I've used in KF. I rarely play medic (I'm L.4 in it, from healing teammates when playing a different perk), and pretty much only when fighting Patty. In those rounds, I've been buying the MP7, but I pretty much don't use it unless I need to fire morphine into people. It's very light, so it's easy to carry a less annoying, more damaging gun.

If I had my way however, I'd have the gun with drastically reduced recoil, even if it meant a decrease in actual damage. Not being able to hit with that little peashooter is just infuriating. I'd rather use my knife. Anyone else feel the same? Less recoil but less damage too?

See, that's the way people can balance things out. I don't want damage increase, as I said. Taking away damage and making it merely as powerful as a slightly beefier berretta would definitely not make it overpowered like everyone thinks it will be. The damn thing takes three rounds to head shot a gorefast as it is.

 

[Nekomancer]

Damage increase AND Recoil reduction would make the MP7 to strong. If i would have the choice, i'd choose recoil reduction. The damage of the bullet isn't that bad, but the horrible spread wastes ammo and the actual overall damage of the weapon is pretty bad. Also the Rate of Fire should be reduced a bit, that would balance the less spread.

The damage is fine in close combat, but only because it's hard to miss if the Specimen is hugging you like "a big shaved bear that hates people" (quote from TF2 Scout).

 

[nath2009uk]

Know what you guys mean now, playing Suicidal as a level 3 Medic on 6man.
The thing could barely keep the clots from me, Having to reload alot.
Because of it's weight, I couldn't see it being improved in terms of Firepower, maybe a little less recoil, or instead a lower firerate.
Like I suggested elsewhere, A mounted flashlight would be great and make it useful for alot of maps

 

[robdude19]

See, that's the way people can balance things out. I don't want damage increase, as I said. Taking away damage and making it merely as powerful as a slightly beefier berretta would definitely not make it overpowered like everyone thinks it will be. The damn thing takes three rounds to head shot a gorefast as it is.

Do you aim for the screwed up hitbox to the right of the head? I haven't really played medic yet since the update but when I found out about the hitbox I got a LOT better at head-shotting gores. Even the 9mm kills in one hit if you do it right, I think you basically need to aim for the right edge of his face (I know a bit off topic).

 

[9_6]

Okay, one last time since you have questions for me I don't wanna leave those unanswered.
I have one for you too which I'd like to see answered as well if you don't mind.

The question is,

Why should the medic be so good at killing stuff?

What do you mean by 'so good'?
Sorry, can't answer it without you explaining what exactly you mean by that first.

But now I have a second question, about "something that allows us to kill/damage low level zeds."

Seriously? You can't kill/damage low level zeds with the mp7m?

Yes I can, I never said it's impossible, noone here ever said that.
It's just plain bothersome under some circumstances which I have already explained in detail.

 

[-=AG=- Avery]

An increase in accuracy and recoil IS an effective increase in damage.

????????? ok accuracy and recoil related damage is not. The only way you can get more damage is that you land more shots on target which is logical with less recoil which increases accuracy but the rounds don't have to deal more damage.

 

[DocDave]

Just basically saying 'no your opinion is wrong' is being a dumb flamer

You are foolish. End of story.

As a side note, read some literature to understand things better.

Heh.

No, that was my summarizing of your post, which seemed to take very long, yet had no point.

No, a summary is a condensed version of something. 'You are foolish' is not a summary.

As a side note, read a dictionary to understand english better.

Why don't you instead, try suggesting other things instead of ruining a thread?

I do suggest things. Right now, the medic is perfectly fine, and any work on it would be robbing the berserker and firebug of much needed attention.

Asking "what is the basis of your opinion that the medic needs to be better at killing, specifically with the mp7m which serves a different primary purpose anyway" is hardly ruining a thread.

????????? ok accuracy and recoil related damage is not. The only way you can get more damage is that you land more shots on target which is logical with less recoil which increases accuracy but the rounds don't have to deal more damage.

Bullets that are more likely to hit do more damage. It's like saying "I'm not asking you to make my car faster, I just want a bigger engine."

I really haven't played very much with the MP7, but there's a reason for that.

I simply find it highly annoying to actually use.

I think you will find if you play much with the mp7m you will find it less and less annoying to use. However, the purpose of the mp7m is to provide ranged healing.

Okay, one last time since you have questions for me I don't wanna leave those unanswered.
I have one for you too which I'd like to see answered as well if you don't mind.

What do you mean by 'so good'?
Sorry, can't answer it without you explaining what exactly you mean by that first.

Good question about 'so good.' A better phrasing might be,

Why does the medic need to be better at killing than he is now?

Another question, more basic, that adresses the same issue is,

Should the medic with his strong healing abilities be poor at killing compared to other perks? Or, How much is it worth in terms of power to keep a whole team of 5 damage dealers alive?

A quick way to look at things when balance is an issue is similar items. What else costs it's perk next to nothing, weighs as little as 3 blocks, and increases the effectiveness at which the perk can do it's job by a huge amount? (Ie melee healing > ranged healing.)

Or perhaps,

Would you want a "good" mp7m if it weighed 12 blocks? Would you want an mp7m that weighed 1 block but could not shoot bullets at all?

 

[defragen1]

level 6 medic should increase the mp7 magazine size

 

[DocDave]

level 6 medic should increase the mp7 magazine size

I could get behind, maybe, an increase in how many clips the medic can carry for the mp7m. When talking about damage, it's really the dps that matters most. Clip size increases dps, and you already get 100% more at perk 5. An increase in how many clips you could carry, though, would not affect dps, while letting the weapon remain viable for a longer part of the game even if you're a member of the "Spray n' Pray" church.

 

[9_6]

Good question about 'so good.' A better phrasing might be,

Why does the medic need to be better at killing than he is now?

Actually what bugs me most about the gun is the long reload time which doesn't have too much to do with killing but keeping you from healing anyone for 3 full seconds.
That that also making it a worse instrument for killing is only a side effect.
Now to compensate for that one might either raise the reload speed like I suggested from the very beginning, lower the insane firerate so you don't run out of ammo in half a seccond and don't need to reload as often, raise the clipsize for the same effect or do something about the insane spread so your shots are more efficient and you don't need to empty 1/3rd of your mag into a crawler because half of the shots miss (note that even tapping the mouse sprays at least 2 shots of which the second will most likely miss).

If any of that, or a combination of all 3 things would be done, the medic would not only be more efficient at killing but, and that is more important, more efficient at healing because his ability to heal doesn't get blocked as often as right now.

So to phrase that into a question like you like to do:
Why should the medic be kept from healing?

Should the medic with his strong healing abilities be poor at killing compared to other perks? Or, How much is it worth in terms of power to keep a whole team of 5 damage dealers alive?

A quick way to look at things when balance is an issue is similar items. What else costs it's perk next to nothing, weighs as little as 3 blocks, and increases the effectiveness at which the perk can do it's job by a huge amount? (Ie melee healing > ranged healing.)

Or perhaps,

Would you want a "good" mp7m if it weighed 12 blocks? Would you want an mp7m that weighed 1 block but could not shoot bullets at all?

Hell I'd sure as hell not want anything that can't harm enemies anywhere on the 1-4 keys.
As for how much damage you need to deal to keep your team healthy, while that totally depends on the team, generally speaking you should deal enough damage to be able to deal with ambushing trash zeds while your team is busy handling the big ones without keeping you from doing anything by having to reload long and often.
I'd not have anything against bumping its weight up to bullpup-level and raising the price accordingly (no 97% discount =P) if the thing in turn would act more like a bullpup (without all the commando specific bonuses) that can shoot healing darts.

As for your question 'Why should the medic be so good at killing stuff?', to make room and be able to do his job which is saving the butts of your teammates with only very little interruption.

 

[DocDave]

Why should the medic be kept from healing?

If used properly, the mp7m is an incredible boon to the medic's ability to heal. I can't at all agree that the mp7m is somehow detrimental to a medic healing, because in fact the opposite is true.

However, it does bring to light a related problem: Sounds like what you're talking about is not a problem about the medic gun in specific at all, but a design issue: You should be able to set, in preferences, "What do I do when I run out of ammo, but am still clicking?"

Something like,

On attack with an empty magazine:

○ Reload current weapon
○ Switch to next-best weapon
○ Do nothing (manual reload only)