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Aim zoom.

You call that "debating"? I have yet to hear one sound argument out of him. Things like "the science is shoddy" mean little unless the supposed shoddiness is explained.

If you actually read my post you would understand I can see the science after someone posted it after I said that statement.

Its not hard to understand. The explanations are rather poor.

I simply dont agree with it. My eyes dont zoom so I dont want my game to zoom. Regardless of FOV and Zooming tunnel vision arguments, I still do not want it in game. I like things in Roost, i think that adds to the game. Even the slight zoom that cod gives is rather feeble.

Science is correct in the scientific part, it is not correct in the gameplay, atmosphere part.
 
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If you actually read my post you would understand I can see the science after someone posted it after I said that statement.

I'm sure I've read them a couple of days ago, but I only skimmed over the thread before posting today so I might have missed/forgot something.

But of course if you do understand why zooming makes sense - namely, not because you'd zoom in real life, which you obviously don't, but because of the default view being unrealistic in the first place - and you still don't want it based on aesthetic reasons, then that's fair enough. I don't agree, but I somewhat see where you're coming from.
 
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and you still don't want it based on aesthetic reasons, then that's fair enough. I don't agree, but I somewhat see where you're coming from.

I see the main points of these 4 pages being -

1 - When Iron sighted, objects would appear in size as they would in real life

2 - When i free look mode, your field of vision is corrected on your screen so you do not have tunnel vission and can use your perhiperal vision.


What I don't agree with is the combining of the two. To have masses of side vision then a zoomed in mode (although it is what you would see in real life) would make the GAME too easy. Its going to be a bolt nightmare with all the easy shooting.


Hope that clarifies. :)
 
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I see the main points of these 4 pages being -

1 - When Iron sighted, objects would appear in size as they would in real life

2 - When i free look mode, your field of vision is corrected on your screen so you do not have tunnel vission and can use your perhiperal vision.


What I don't agree with is the combining of the two. To have masses of side vision then a zoomed in mode (although it is what you would see in real life) would make the GAME too easy. Its going to be a bolt nightmare with all the easy shooting.


Hope that clarifies. :)

actually it boils down to 3 points that come up in the discussion:
* Correct size of objects at all distances
* Peripheral view
* No size change of objects.

If you prefer the first 2 over the last one you will get aimzoom, if you prefer the last 2 you will get what RO is.
 
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actually it boils down to 3 points that come up in the discussion:
* Correct size of objects at all distances
* Peripheral view
* No size change of objects.

If you prefer the first 2 over the last one you will get aimzoom, if you prefer the last 2 you will get what RO is.
That's an absurd overspimlification, and is simply not correct; rather like saying one have a choice that boils down to eating cat sh*t, or dog sh*t, and your choice will determine the nationality of the cusine you prefer...

It's not just an issue of correct apparent object size, and field of view. The larger issue is that object pixel resolution -- that we can't see and resolve a player to a fraction of the distance we can in the real world, because he becomes a pixelated blob in game at very close range (though it may appear far in-game it's not).

The largest issue is is the outcome of these limitations which confines the mean range of engagements without aim-zoom to pistol ammunition and melee ranges; the outcome is arcady absurdly 'close up' combat that obviates realistic, ranged fire-maneuver tactics.

You can certainly use long rifles in RO, but in the real world they'd be less effective (more unwieldly, slower reload) then a handgun at the ranges of most decisive contacts in Red Orchestra. Red Orchestra in it's current form plays more like Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat, or even Quake III Areana then Ghost Recon...

:(
 
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It's not just an issue of correct apparent object size, and field of view. The larger issue is that object pixel resolution -- that we can't see and resolve a player to a fraction of the distance we can in the real world, because he becomes a pixelated blob in game at very close range (though it may appear far in-game it's not).

In what way is the pixel resolution problem different for aim zoom and non-aim zoom?
To me the difference is the distance as you mentioned at which it occurs. That distance is a result from a different FOV (beside the obvious screen resolution factor) which directly results in different apparent object size at same distance from cam to object.
Wether the object pixelates at a certain distance is then a matter of resolution. On a raster display pixelation will never be completely gone.

I would assume that FOV changes try to achieve correct size relations concerning distances and object size when aiming, resolution can hardly be a variable there as the realism gain should probably not be restricted to those with high res displays.


The largest issue is is the outcome of these limitations which confines the mean range of engagements without aim-zoom to pistol ammunition and melee ranges; the outcome is arcady absurdly 'close up' combat that obviates realistic, ranged fire-maneuver tactics.

Are you arguing for realism or for realistic combat ranges? If a realistic depiction of the human visual perception is the case then imo my 3 points as requirements stand, if only realistic combat ranges are the requirement then i agree, the latter two dont matter.
 
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In what way is the pixel resolution problem different for aim zoom and non-aim zoom?
They are different facets of the same issue; you're simplification only addresses one aspect; 'size' as a function of FOV.

To me the difference is the distance as you mentioned at which it occurs. That distance is a result from a different FOV (beside the obvious screen resolution factor) which directly results in different apparent object size at same distance from cam to object.

Wether the object pixelates at a certain distance is then a matter of resolution. On a raster display pixelation will never be completely gone.
The limit of identifiable man-target detail due to pixelation is a function of pixel resolution of the display and FOV (to everyone, not just you). For the purposes of realism game design; building for realistic identifiable man-target distance as a function of the mean resolution the game is played at will reduced effective difference between resolutions if aim-zoom is incorporated as all Players are able to see at a range much closer to the effective limits of the long rifles, which is finite constant irrespective of resolution.

I would assume that FOV changes try to achieve correct size relations concerning distances and object size when aiming, resolution can hardly be a variable there as the realism gain should probably not be restricted to those with high res displays.
Obviously the higher resolution display always maintains some advantage regardless of aiming FOV metrics, but with careful attention to scale, FOV, and how much FOV change/zoom is added in aim the advantage is substantially curtailed with aim-zoom as all Players effetive visual range of engagement is more closely matched irrespective of resolution, and the ballistic limitations of the long rifles will be much closer to all Players limits of vision curtailing the 'WTF!' unseen shots. The advantage of higher resolution remains, but is greatly curtailed.

Are you arguing for realism or for realistic combat ranges?
Both.

If a realistic depiction of the human visual perception is the case then imo my 3 points as requirements stand, if only realistic combat ranges are the requirement then i agree, the latter two dont matter.
There's virtually nothing in games that scales correctly realistically to the actual mechanics of how we see with binocular vision in the real world, so saying that no aim-zoom is substantiall more realistic aesthetically or as far as visual mechanics is as ridiculous as saying one gallon less or more water on a particular map is more realistic.

:rolleyes:
 
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If people in this thread wish to gain support or change peoples opinions regarding game factors, a simple non insulting answer is always best.

You'd think so, but i tried that on page two, and it took all of 10 minutes for someone to insinuate that i am a n00b and don't know how to play FPS games.. yeah, it works both ways.
 
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Well, well, I don't have much more to say.
Seemingly the subject is out of print, and the subject is already being faced as a "dogma" of the which who still to dare to oppose, he will have to face the "withchammer" of the inquisition of the dominant "status quo" in this question.

This topic is open, then still it is allowed to post.
Exercising this right, I will post:

After analyzing well, and to weigh the subject technically, and until "philosophizing" to respect.
I approximated to a drier and correct text, that I would like to expose here.
I will leave of side mordants criticiz to the other details : marketing , it politicizes, business, fame and money, and even tradition, that involve this subject of the correction of zoom-ironsight.
is going in the text that proceeds, only and exclusively, a small piece of my conclusions, pay attention and contemplate to respect:


> when the zoom-in-out it happens in the game, the "reality" of the game that you are playing is transformed, he doesn't have as denying this.
- his enemy simply raisin to be closer of you
- as if this was not enough, the whole scenery starts to be closer of you
you have a transformation, an instantaneous distortion, that it totally alters the previous perception that you had from the ambience around.
Before this proclaimed it "compensation" that the zoom-ironsight intends to do between the reality and the pc-screen its pays a "too expensive" price!

Also consider the successive amount that this alteration happens, how many times we positioned the ironsight and we lowered it, this happens the whole time....
zoon in, zoom out, zoom in, zoom out...
the thing all is a confused and very unreal amount, and no matter how much we became used to this (thanks to god, or else we would not get more the shovel of good games that its use this resource),

RELEVANT>>the statement " functional realism" ends tends a "null earnings" against the "aesthetic realism" .
Because who promotes the "true" compensation, who promotes the true "distortion correction", in whole and any game, and in all and any instance is the:
" adaptation of the own human brain that is noticing the atmosphere and adjusting their sensor ones to calibrate the thing in a possible more realistic way "
Always the mind works and it makes adjustments with that that is presented us in the screen of a game.
Then the conclusion of that is that with or without zoom-ironsight, we will adapt, calibrate and to try to correct the things for a possible more realistic vision, for us to "understand" the atmosphere/ambience and the action around us.
If the zoom-ironsight it doesn't exist, and somebody argues that that is a " aesthetic realism" we noticed that it is exactly this aesthetic "realism " that provides our sensation of MORE REALISM in the game.
If the zoom-ironsight it happens, then our brain adapts to this , we liked if it is a good game, but its doesn't have any relevance to call "FUNCTIONAL realism."


Sworn gentlemen, Mr. judge.
I know that the subject is lost.
And the sentence was already promulgated.

As I said there in that unhappy and blocked topic :
To me it only remains to pray , so that the "realism functional of the zoom" comes as an OPTIONAL configuration.

The End.
 
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What about:

Close Quarter Battle:
-No Automatic zoom for IronSight.

Long Range Battle:
-Small IronSight Zoom when you go in "Breathing" mode. Say it zooms a bit when you keep the 2nd mouse button pressed for example.

Everybody Happy?

Now calm down. And call me next time you have a problem. I am so awesome i always have good solutions.
 
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aimzoom is for noobs obviously it's unrealistic things don't get magically bigger if you focus on it and for those noobs *****ing about "omg omg my resolution is so small that enemies from long distance are smaller than they would be IRL" should STFU and buy themselves a decent PC. This is 2010 not the 15th century.

next thing would probably be "smg's take 2 long 2 reload" or "bolt-action rifles should shoot like auto-rifles because bolt action ones are underpowered against auto rifles"...... this development comes gradually, and over the years.

what we end up with? COD 7: RED WARFARE 1.
 
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What about:

Close Quarter Battle:
-No Automatic zoom for IronSight.

Long Range Battle:
-Small IronSight Zoom when you go in "Breathing" mode. Say it zooms a bit when you keep the 2nd mouse button pressed for example.

Everybody Happy?

Now calm down. And call me next time you have a problem. I am so awesome i always have good solutions.

You should read the thread
 
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The thing is i hate automatic zoom when you aim your weapon.
I want it to be manual.

If im in a distant firefight, then i'll use the 'zoom button'. If not, then dont make me zoom at all when i aim my weapon.

I dont care how far i can see without zoom (say 50/100 or 200 meters). It deosnt bother me thats it odesn't exactly match reality. In the game, as long as other people/or AI have same limitations, then it is simply ok.

Please no automatic zoom. Thats all.
 
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The thing is i hate automatic zoom when you aim your weapon.
I want it to be manual.

Please no automatic zoom. Thats all.

The main zoom component is when you press the breathing key, which has been made clear already. Beside that there is most likely a mild zoom when going into iron sight. So as said before there most likely won't be any issue that you're forced to use the iron sight with a heavily restricted fov. When an enemy is close you need the peripheral view more than the 1:1 size, which the devs resolved by the most logical answer a zoom key.

For me the main thing is if there is a fov zoom, is that it would be nice if users within set bounds could change the fov for the 3 stances a bit to their liking. Especially as not all people have 21 inch monitors. Some people play on a 15" laptop and some on a multi screen set-up or a hdtv. Personally I think that offering options within reasonable bounds, would be a win win situation for all players. And could even allow the zoom haters to minimize or completely get rid of the effects of zoom.

Next to that I hope that people can use the fov zoom /breathing button even when not in iron sights, so you can take a quick peek at any location in a realistic size, without being forced to come to a full stop and raise your weapon to your eyes to see if that thing in the distance is a human or a chair.
 
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