Aim zoom.
- Thread starter Hipocracy
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These forums used to be a place where intelligent debate was above personal attacks. As we are a global community, this was especially true with regard to language and interpretation. Its sad to see us sink so low. 
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These forums used to be a place where intelligent debate was above personal attacks. As we are a global community, this was especially true with regard to language and interpretation as this is a global community. Its sad to see us sink so low.
What you said.
@ Hipoc - I can see yourself and Hoak enjoy debating the finer points of ingame science, but you are not always correct, until you understand that alot of your points are opinions or more to the point, not suitable for a computergame, you will not be a truly happy boy.
I dont agree with aim zoom on principle. the science is shoddy and the debate for using it seems to be your preferance to make things easier "i am suggesting allot more zoom than that so we can actually play the game" . . . to give auto zooming rifles to me is silly.
/me awaits hoak multi quoting my post
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Your OPINION that the science is shoddy is completely invalid, and you are once again seeming to think that i want aim zoom not for the realism, which is what i actually want it for, but because i am a nub and i need to L2P. I find it interesting when people feel the need to say " you need to make the game easier because your bad" when their illogical argument cant hold up without resorting to mud-slinging. Notice how i didn't insult you personally or call you "boy" to imply that you are a child and are not to be taken as seriously.
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This is exactly that but in a condescending manner.
So please, enlighten me as to how zooming when I look down a rifle barrel is true to real life. If it can be proven to me I will happily agree its needed, but until I can see hard evidence I uphold my no zoom opinion.
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It would be awesome if Ramm could chime in and explain to us
1. how the tripwire team knows its realistic, they did a test
2. whether or not they would be willing to implement any something this game play changing this late in the life of the game.
any way to get a Ramm or any dev over here?
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"When doing research for ROHOS, we decided to do a scientific investigation into how the human eye works, and how large objects would need to appear on screen to be the same size as they would be in real life. We used as a baseline a 19" monitor (standard aspect ratio) and a 21" monitor (widescreen aspect ratio). We went out to a football field and measured with a pair of calipers placed a standard distance from a persons eye how large a person appeared to be at different distances (out to 100 meters). To sum up our findings, to appear to be "real life size" on the player's screen, you have to decrease the FOV (zoom in) a little over 2x. In other words, in RO:Ost, somone 100 meters away in game appears 2x smaller than they would in real life, thus making it much HARDER than real life to shoot them. This lead to what many refer to as "pixel hunting". Now in ROHOS, with the FOV zoom when using controlled breathing objects in the world appear their real life size. This not only has made the game more realistic, it has also both made the game easier, and made long range firefights a lot more fun and practical."
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The key here is to see a target of reallife 1:1 size comparishment, in order to see targets at the same distance as in reallife. The ability to see as far as you can in the real world is only of real benefit if maps are made to allow you to see as far as in the real world.
In roost on most open streets there are multiple sandbags, and flipped over trucks, the fog kicks in around 200 meters. The general combat engagements in the official maps are made around engagements.
If you get zoom when zoomed you see things bigger but you loose your ability to see moving targets. Especially at distances as the wider fov mode doesn't show things as big as the zoom one. Which is the biggest disadvantage of a staged system.
So generally its a tradeoff of what you want the zoom to be and what do you want the minimal fov to be to still have some perhiperal view. RO stock maps were all built from the beginning with how the map was at its default settings.
As both roost and the mod from mod release 1.0 till now never had any official form of zoom, and the stock maps were generally made for the stock game not some mod.
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A serverside option wouldnt hurt as they never do, but if ro will get another patch it will be the last most likely, so all issues that could come with it could never be resolved.
So if anything i hope they fix the bugs first.
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There's your problem right there, you are thinking of it as "you are going from a natural view to a superhuman zoom, the eye can't do that!", but the opposite is infact true, the normal view (FOV-90) is actually the unnatural one, it's a superhuman "fish-eye" view, so aim-zoom does not give you supernatural zoom view, no, it takes you from an unrealistic zoomed out view to a normal human view.
Thing is, we are viewing the game-world on a screen, a very limiting thing that denies us all the perihial vision that we would normally have in the real world, to combat this, it's normal practice in FPS games to play in an unnatural and unrealistic FOV of 90 degrees (or there about), this view is not very realistic at all, and it makes everything appear much smaller than it is, and also makes it very hard to judge distances, but it's a needed tradeoff to give the player just a bit of the periphial vision he needs to navigate the game-world and see threats coming.
But it also creates a real problem with aiming, due to pixilation and everything appearing too small to begin with, we cannot match what a real person could see and shoot at in a game with a FOV of 90 degrees, it's putting us at an unrealistic disadvantage, and thats what Aim-Zoom tries to fix, it lets us have periphial vision when not aimed, and natural human sight when we need it the most, when we want to shoot something.
It's a tradeoff either way, we could just play all the time in a lower FOV and allways have a realistic vision, but then we would be denied periphial vision and thats neither realistic or good for gameplay.
We can also play allways useing a FOV of 90 and have our Periphial vision, but it will cost us the abillity to accurately judge distance and engage targets at ranges where we should be able to do so.
Or we can get both with aim-zoom, which technically is the most realistic option right now, but at the cost of needing the "zoom-in" effect that breaks immersion a bit.
Choose your poison, but if you want the most realism possible, Aim-Zoom is what you want, even if it does look a little silly, it is the best tradeoff in respects to mimicking human sight, allowing us both periphial vision, and propper human sight and the best concept of scale, current tech sadly wont let us have both at once, so we have to zoom in and out to get both.
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There was that Swedish designer that made a parabolic screen for projection, and then there's 3D glasses and that sort of thing, that's probably the sort of tech that would be required to give us a true field of view in games.. but it's a bit cumbersome, and makes you look like a tool when playing, hence it hasen't really caught on thus far, and game dev's generally don't want to design their games around tech only a few nerds have anyway (man i wish more games would take advantage of TrackIR for instance!).
But i take it you can see the argument for Aim-view now?
Usually Aim-View just gets misunderstood because people thought the normal Fov-90 view was a realistic one (perfectly understandable, it has been the standard for so long now that we have gotten used to seeing things that way), and usually people just need to wrap their heads around the concept that its not "going from natural view to a zoom" but infact "going from an unnatural fish-eye view to normal", then it all starts to make some sense (they may still have a personal prefrence for the normal Fov-90 view, but atleast they can see the argument for Zoom-View, and stop looking at it as some kind of cheat)
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But i take it you can see the argument for Aim-view now?
I can see that it has evidence behind its use. I still dont condone its use.
No matter how you suger coat it, it is still going from 1 field of view (to maximise perif vision) to a zoom mode to make object appear as to real life on a 21" widescreen monitor. Who has a screen that small in this day and age. So its automatically invalid for alot of people.
I likes the stock RO way of IS, where your gun raised as it would irl any you fire, therefore no magical zooming (realistic or not).
Afterall, who playes a computer game to get realism.
In my opinion they are adding this to help people shoot further.
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You have just enraged the automzooming fanboys
I'm not that enraged considering the fact that i am good at fps. I mean if i was bad, then maybe, but now not so much. It just demonstrates how ignorant some people are.
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also you ask who has a screen that small these days? the majority of people, thats who.
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It's not even a matter that has to be argued in terms of the science that the more limited members of the RO Audience clearly have trouble understanding; but one simple, empirical, FACT -- that anyone should be able to understand:
At a fraction of the distance you can easily ascertain the identity of a person you know in the real world; you will not even be able to see his likeness in games because he'll be a six pixel blob you can't tell from anything else on the map.
The long recitation I've posted details some of the consequences for realism in game-play which are well understood and documented from combat simulator development, and now even in Game Developer magazine. You may choose not like the facts of the matter, you are entitled to your preferences -- but that does not change any of the facts germane to the discussion.
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