Map Bias

[cpl_hans_buckeye]

*** EDIT *** The following statistics are only for TWB public servers *** EDIT ***

On a prior thread an allegation was made that some maps are biased to a specific side. As a recorder of map statistics, capturing the winning side and if reinforcements ran out was a simple addition.

Well it's true! Some maps are biased. See article below and more stats are on TWB forum.
http://www.twbclan.com/megabbs/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4750&posts=2&start=1

3LW
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The allegation that some maps are skewed towards a particular side is true. Two maps show many German victories in the sample collected, Kurland Kessel and Smolenks Stalemate. Kurland has the Germans on defense with Russians trying to overcome the Front Line, infantry only, winter setting. Defense wins 81% of the time. Smolensk has Germans on attack. The last objective is fairly simple if a commander puts arty just right (German perspective) of the main building and Germans can coax enough troops to camp in the cap zone in the destroyed buildings.

Russians dominate Lyeskrovy and Tcherkassy. Lyeskrovy has the Germans on defense in a trench with Russian infantry attack in fall. This is surprising with assumption that Germans on defense would have advantage. This is not the case. Tcherkassy is the winter infantry map where the Russian commander can put arty close to spawn preventing German reinforcement into cap and can also smoke the main HQ building preventing the sniper and MG from being effective. Russian's win Lyeskrovy 85% of the time and Tcherkassy 91%.

So, if you want a challenge when you play these maps, choose the losing side and see if you make a difference!
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[{Core}Craig]

I do wish to know how you conclude these results and the uniform factors used to determine such. Could it perhaps be public play tends to be biast as the more skilled players will be using comms and be on the same team (clan stacking).

The only true way to calculate would be for the same two evenly matched teams to play each map a certain number of times to calculate its average win/loss percentage.

Golden rule is . . pubs are very very random and should not be used to try over inflate your under researched theory based on random events and statistics.

Experiments need control factors before they can be used in definitive arguments such as "map biast".

Good day kind sir.

 

[Zetsumei]

All maps that are not exact 100% mirrored are always going to go to be easier for one side.

Thats why all real competition on maps happends on both the defending/attacking side of a map. From this game stopwatch game modes as well to really compare a teams skill difference.

A stopwatch game mode means that you fight against the clock. Team A Defends first and Team B attacks first, and basically after that teams switch and the attacking team must beat the time.

But on public games its hard to say, because some impossible maps actually can be really easy with minor cooperation. But collecting stats is always good, although for realistic stat taking you would need the same teams to play both sides evenly. Although everything said here is something that probably the entire community knows already ;P.

 

[DietOrange]

I find every night after 9pm eastern when regulars are online with mics teamwork can accomplish just about any of the maps. In the last few weeks I have been back playing it has been some great matches where the attackers win almost every time no matter the map with a good SL and some cooperation.

 

[cpl_hans_buckeye]

Data is from TWB public servers Old*Glory, Server 1, and Server 2. In creating the favorite map predictor, the map played, time map completed, and whether the third map was played is recorded to provide a statistic on when a map will rotate through a server.

By adding the victor and whether reinforcements are out, the allegation of whether a map is biased can be determined by using a statistic.

As you've pointed out, statistics can lie. For example, the current US President's approval rating is < 10% with a margin of error of +/- 3% when Gallup interviewed 1000 Republicans!

The other statement is correct, team play, clan play, teams that communicate, experienced teams always playing the attacker because it is more fun will provide different results. The results posted are for TWB public servers only and were collected to answer a simple question, are maps biased to a specific side? The answer is yes on TWB public servers.
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Here is another interesting result, the following maps are balanced on TWB public servers with either side winning between 40%-60% of the time. For each map, a sample size of at least 10 was completed.
Konigsplatz DanzigRemixV1B2 Ogledow Hedgehog-updated FestungKurland

 

[Tontoman]

Heh, I'd question the pros being bias for the attacking side. I've see lots of times where a map that has an assumed defensive bias getting stacked with 'pros' for total defense pwnage.

Also win/loss numbers on the map are going to be effected due to lack of auto team balancing. Any map bias will be magnified when the side that's considered harder or needing more teamwork is running 2-5 players short.

 

[smokeythebear]

Pubs on average will always favor the attacking side, because a good defense needs coordination + lots of practice which doesn't exist in pubs ever.

It would be interesting to compare theses stats to RoLadder stats. Russians winning 85% on Lyeskrovy and 91% on tcherkassy in pubs is kind of sad. In CW games I'm guessing it's 60% percent Lyes and 50% for tcherkassy.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

pub players will also choose the attacking side knowing the capability of getting more points from caps.....which i can guess more will start doing when the achievements start

 

[Zetsumei]

pub players will also choose the attacking side knowing the capability of getting more points from caps.....which i can guess more will start doing when the achievements start

Depends kill based archievements are easier to attain from the defending side.

 

[Fedorov]

pub players will also choose the attacking side knowing the capability of getting more points from caps.....which i can guess more will start doing when the achievements start

I don't think there will be achievements based on raw points

 

[ibediscore]

Oh why are the stats for Kaukasus, Kryukovo and Tula Outskirts missing...? ah and not to forget that one map with the germans trying to reach trenches while allied hold them down with unlimited artillery. Its not that some maps are skewed its more that some maps are even...I assume Kyukovo is the most biased map (99% german win probably) fallowed by Tula Outskirts and Kaukasus...

But dont get it wrong my favourite maps are Kryukovo and Kaukasus even if i play attacker and i love to have them in rotation...

Another thing is that one might have recognized is that some maps like Koenigsplatz or Tcherkassy could easy be made even if one gives germans more reinforcement. I dont know if this is difficult to change the maps reinforcments. The problem on both maps is the fast decreasing reinforcments cause of the allied artillery. If noon runs in Artillery or the SL uses it wrong the germans have a good chance to win.

 

[fiftyone]

If the Eastern Front was balanced or mirrored during the last WW, it would still be happening.

A little challenge never hurt.

Imagine DoDS with tanks.

Game2 ftw and Gawd save the King.

IMHO.

 

[cpl_hans_buckeye]

More stats added

More stats added

Odessa stats added to link provided above. Odessa has Germans winning 73% of the time (sample size > 10) and 64% of the time when Russians run out of reinforcements. This shows the attacker has to be coordinated on this map and not burn reinforcements or they lose 3 out of 4 times!

Some stat changes for Konigsplatz and Rakowize as population sample grows larger. Konigsplatz is more evenly matched, however, either side wins when the other is out of reinforcements for every single sample taken! In other words, for this map the winner is the one with reinforcements at the end, period. Technique for play on Konigsplatz then is obviously to burn the oppositions reinforcements for the victory.

Rakowice is more balanced and never runs out of reinforcements with Germans winning 59%, Germans are on defense for this map. Technique for Russians would be to not camp but attack attack attack since reinforcement levels are not in play for this one.

3LW

 

[DietOrange]

Rakowice never get's much play time either and it's one of the better stock maps.

 

[slyder73]

Pubs on average will always favor the attacking side, because a good defense needs coordination + lots of practice which doesn't exist in pubs ever.

It would be interesting to compare theses stats to RoLadder stats. Russians winning 85% on Lyeskrovy and 91% on tcherkassy in pubs is kind of sad. In CW games I'm guessing it's 60% percent Lyes and 50% for tcherkassy.

I disagree with that first statement. I only ever play public servers. I dont' do clans, and I've been playing FPS games online since the first DOOM online game and RO since the beginning.

I find players that berate "pubs" tend to be a bit elitist and tend not to be great teamplayers anyway. They are not adaptable to different nights, different groups of players and different ways people like to do things on different nights. I like this.

While I'd agree with the original posters stats about some maps being biased, I really don't think that is a bad thing.

I have been Russian on Smolensk Stalemate (yes on public) and found that a good bit of rallying on public voice chat can get the shy ones to start talking. Once a team starts talking a team starts winning.

Maps that are biased are not necessarily harder for one side or the other, they may just be suffering a lack of good team oriented players willing to take the side the often loses. I've won on all the maps this post says are "loser" maps quite decisively and know it takes a LOT of communication, and teamwork. Sometimes the regular old veteran players pick up their rifles (always the fave of us old vet players) and try to rally the team.

Advice then: Clans don't get you anything unless your clan likes to talk to the public and play WITH them. (Clans are some of the worst teamplayers I've come across in RO)

Get your voice working, buy a mic or don't be shy. The team that talks and plans is the team that wins.

Learn both sides of the maps. Don't always play the same side, even if you liek it a lot, you can learn something from it by playing well as a team on the side you dn't ususally play on.

 

[DietOrange]

Yes team that does start talking usually wins most of the time even if the chips are down already when they get in the server. I have seen plenty of 30 seconds are less wins when we have a competent SL and other good veterans on the mic.

 

[BlackLabel]

All it boils down to is a lack of communication and "battlefield awareness" and teamplay. For example, tula outskirts can be won easy if the russkis know what they do, protect flanks ect.

There is a HUGE diffrence between pub-play and 8v8 clanmatches, especialy against longtime playing teams, since they use communications to an extend you will never have on a pub-server.