MG protection & resupply

[slyder73]

As for the conefire effect, you'll have to elaborate on that. I've always understood RO's system to be that the bullet goes where the barrel points, although I suppose they might add in some "cone fire" effect to illustrate different accuracies at longer range due to things like windage and such, but I'd expect that to be basically negligible at the ranges where we engage on most maps. For the most part though, my understanding is that the bullet goes where your barrel points, while the barrel itself may move randomly due to sway.

RO models real ballistics, there is no cone of fire. Your bullet goes where your barrel is pointed, and over distance will drop, just as a real bullet does. The only thing that might look to some as a cone of fire, is when you keep firing in automatic, with the recoil moving your barrel all over. If you carefully aim with your rifle or any semi-auto and fire at the same place perfectly, your bullet will land in the same place every time. With autos, you have to take into account recoil, so if you want an accurate grouping, fire short small bursts, this works with the MG as well.

 

[6y6JIuK_IZM]

The person who covers should get UNLIMITED points

The person who covers should get UNLIMITED points

I agree fully. It is like a driver in a tank. He gets same number of points as the gunner and machine gunner. Otherwise veeery few people would agree to be drivers (in public play).
The person who covers the machine gunner should get UNLIMITED points until the machine -gunner is not dead.

EDIT: Unlimited, because otherwise machine-gunner's "friend" would count to 5 and say "Sorry dude, I got my 5 points, now u r on your own!"

To prevent resupply-spamming from other players, ammo should not be accepted if it is not say 50% spent.
This way people will start work as a team. Indeed now machine -gunners are on their own. Nobody gives a ****

 

[mat69]

RO models real ballistics, there is no cone of fire. Your bullet goes where your barrel is pointed, and over distance will drop, just as a real bullet does. The only thing that might look to some as a cone of fire, is when you keep firing in automatic, with the recoil moving your barrel all over. If you carefully aim with your rifle or any semi-auto and fire at the same place perfectly, your bullet will land in the same place every time. With autos, you have to take into account recoil, so if you want an accurate grouping, fire short small bursts, this works with the MG as well.

No offense, but read.
SS_Random ... basically is conefire, no matter what you try to tell us. Open the Source-code files, you'll finde it there.
Yet there is nothing bad about conefire, if done a non-exagerated way (bullets do not hit the same point over a certain distance, even if the barrell is allways aimed at the very same position). And as none *****es about the conefire in RO I guess they did an unnoticeable way.


I really think the MG should be revaluated and everything that does not change the basic game (with that I mean creating an uber-mg, stronger than a minigun) should be done. One of the strongest infantry weapon types in WW2 is pretty weak in RO.
Some reasons for that are lack of teamplay (the ideas by Murphy try to adress that), being spotted too easily, being hit too easily (I guess that is due to lack of real mental pressure ) ....

 

[[=KAS=]doomed]

The MG isn't weak if you have good teammates... Just like in real life!

 

[BuD_GrimReaper]

I don't really see the need to change anything.

MG is just a hard role to play and you are depending on your teammates to survive but then again, isnt any class?


I always supply an MG'er when I see one, not for the points because points don't win a map, but because he's the one thats going to be covering my ass so i'd like him to have the ammo to do just that, cover my ass while i run to the next cap zone.
The points you get from it are a nice extra but doesn't make or break any game mechanic in place and it is always nice to get 5 points for running across the battlefield to resupply a critical MG position on a flank, and risking your life in the process, because the guy is begging for ammo through VoIP or chat. Mostly people don't go out of their way to resupply an MG that isn't in their planned rout to the cap zone so those extra 5 points are always a nice facilitation but again, doesnt make or break the game mechanics.




As for a special class to help the MG. I really don't see the point. Often as a squad leader i'd like a squad to follow me around or cover me while throwing smoke in the face of the enemy but you don't expect that to happen unless you're playing with friends or on a server with a high teamplay concentration.
Teamplay should not enforced, encouraged yes, but not facilitating a specific class with other classes or game mechanics.



All you need is teamplay in place and those 2 problems are solved. Not a single class in RO is meant to go at it solo, you'll end up getting killed. A team of classes that use communication however has a much higher chance of winning.
Thats just the way it is imho =)

 

[Murphy]

Absolutely. There are people who don't think that much ahead to keep an MG-gunner alive so he can cover their ass. They simply play for their individual points. Call them oldfashioned or call the statwhores, that's the way it is.

Why do you think capzones award you with 10 points whenever you cap one? That's worth the same as killing 10 (!) people! It is there to make those who don't give a rats ass about the team, the winningconditions on the map or anything else but their individual kills and points want to cap a zone like they have to to make the game work.

If the only award for teamplay is what it simply is (a team is always stronger than a lone-wolf) that's not enough for the pointwhore crowd and on public servers those are the majority. By giving them points for doing things that are good for the team you make them work for the team although they wouldn't want to do it without the points.

Its like paying for a doctor who could help you without being paid but he doesn't want to. So why not pay him?

 

[LordKhaine]

RO models real ballistics, there is no cone of fire.

It's because it models real ballistics that there IS cone of fire. Just a very small one you wont notice on the rifles.

But anyway, back to the thread. This idea is great and all.. but it wont help the MG. The MG suffers because of many things right now, which I shall list.

1) Lack of bullet penetration. MG shooting at you? easy, take cover behind that thin wooden fence/wall/box/door. And then at your leisure....

2) Ability to pop up and pick off an MG with a rifle, consistantly and easily with little risk. The MG will have to fire a few bursts to typically hit a rifleman in good cover. A good rifleman will only need 1 shot to take out a well positioned mg'er. The MG is static and lacks per shot accuracy and doesn't know exactly where or when the rifleman may pop up. The rifleman on the other hand is mobile, knows where the mg is and only needs a second to pop up, aim, shoot and get back into cover.

3) Suppression plays a vital part in real life. It plays virtually no part in a game. And probably never will.

4) The deploy system is still rather clunky. A guy slightly past your arc of fire to the right? IRL you'd simply turn a bit more and nail him. Ingame you have to undeploy and shift to one side. Then move the mouse around a bit to get the deploy icon, and then deploy. By this time the target has virtually always disappeared from sight, or killed you with a grenade or well placed rifle shot.


As much as I like your idea for promoting realism and teamplay, your idea doesn't help any of the core issues

 

[mat69]

The MG isn't weak if you have good teammates... Just like in real life!

Even with good teammates it won't be so strong as the real counter part, as it is spotted too easily as I wrote above. Also LordKhaine mentions some points that weaken especially the MG in its supressing role.

Yet I still believe that Murphy's idea could improve the situation a little bit.

 

[jedinstven-o crni Wuk]

it would least help in any case to give the "iam not alone" feeling on the battlefield, and that is already very much. That the mg is not so effective like in real life, comes from the "pixel war" we have in RO:O

 

[Cuddles]

Its not hard to aim at the pixels with the MG, but hiting them is mutch harder i can see the tracers going...........somewhere in the direction im shooting but I cant seem to kill anything tracers seem to go further than the bullets, im not a 100% sure.

 

[Solo4114]

Part of the problems people have with the MG comes from their own expectations. Don't use the MG as the "HAHA!!!! PWNED NOOBIES!!!" weapon that will mow down wave after wave of enemy troops. Most of the time they won't line up quite so neatly for you.

The MG excels as a psychological weapon and as a means of slowing an enemy advance or providing covering fire for friendlies. Granted, the MGer needs to set up properly to minimize their exposure and have a little backup now and then, but if you use the enemy not to score kills but rather to either help your guys get into position or keep their guys from doing so, it's a damn effective weapon.

In terms of hitting targets, most people who use the MG only occasionally don't understand just how much kick the thing has. You literally just have to TAP the fire button. Not press it, but tap it. Even with the DP-28, people will often hold the fire button down a lot longer than they should, which will throw off their aim. Next time try just literally tapping the fire button and see how accurate you are. It'll probably help a lot. Long streams of fire don't help, though. They melt your barrel, throw off your aim, and let enemy rifleman know exactly where to shoot.

 

[Cuddles]

Well shooting at 1000 RPM I have to hit something, but the rifle man that im shooting at just pops out and looks at the pretty colors flying past his head, and then killing me with a single shot, even though I have shot more than 40 rounds of lead at him.

Still MGs are usefull at rushing targets, untill someone flanks you.

 

[Solo4114]

That's your problem: you're shooting 40 rounds at the guy. Try shooting maybe 5. That's what I mean by "tap the fire button".

By the way, if you're shooting 40 rounds at him, that means you're going through: (a) over a full magazine on the DP-28, (b) almost a full magazine on the MG-34, or (c) almost 1/3 of a belt on the MG-42.

You won't get the pop-up rifleman, but that's just the nature of the beast. The trick is to put yourself in a position where popup riflemen are less of a problem, and also to pick them off before they can get there. Also, to the extent you can put yourself in a position to provide enfilading fire, so much the better. People often know where to look when the fire is coming from straight ahead of them. If you fire on them from the side, you'll throw 'em off.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

I don't have a problem with the way the system now works. It encourages teamwork by having players to give the MGers ammo to get points, despite the fact that points are actually 'pointless'.

The ideas about protecting the MGer are ok and giving points related to this are nice in a flawless system. What if the guy manning the MG has no clue what he is doing, or likes to rush into buildings shooting from the hip only to get himself killed everytime? What if the MGer wants to run off on some self Rambo mission? Then its 'oh, great, I just wasted my time helping some guy who won't work with the team. What if you get the MGer and find 5 other guys have already just beat you to supplying him. Should they now all hover around him and protect him too? Should you not give them points because they weren't the first to get there? Then you would have people say, 'oh the MGer is too far away and someone else will beat me to him, why bother'. Then of course, the MGer doesn't get supplied because we all know you could stand infront of or next to a teammate and constantly request ammo, and some players are just oblivious to you and will never supply you, as if they are thinking 'why should they be bothered by your presence?' I am not knocking the idea in general, these are just things that have to be considered if you want to make things more complicated and actually change it.

As far as those people who think the current points are too much, so what? The points don't really matter in which team wins. Are you worried that some other player has a higher score than you because he may have supplied an MGer a few more times and you think the more kills you have made means you should be higher on the score list??? If the current system works by encouraging some teamwork, leave it. Lowering the ammount of points will probably just mean less people going out of their way to supply the MGer that really needs the ammo.

Anyway, the current system encourages players to supply the guy with ammo and I think that is what was intended when they made it. Just my opinion...

 

[Speirs]

I don't know if it is possible but my idea would be if you resupply an mg there is a radius that is set that you can't leave. The MGer is the center of the circle you are allowed to be in. If you leave the circle a message will appear similar to the you are leaving the combat zone. If you leave it you will lose the mg points. So basically it is enforcing you to stay and protect your mger for a certain time amount for 5 points or maybe an increased amount.

 

[Pycckuu]

Even if this idea won't do what it intended fully, its definately a step in the right direction.

 

[Ender]

Please reduce the resupply to one point and stop giving points after you have your full amount.

You have a good idea but think it would be to much to get into the game. Just some "simple" changes are need to make me happy.

 

[jedinstven-o crni Wuk]

Well shooting at 1000 RPM I have to hit something, but the rifle man that im shooting at just pops out and looks at the pretty colors flying past his head, and then killing me with a single shot, even though I have shot more than 40 rounds of lead at him.

Still MGs are usefull at rushing targets, untill someone flanks you.

I see your point, but you can forget discussing about it, cause there either

1. always hop someone in crying "but OMG I can hit a fly 1000m from it, even in move!"

2. The mg works just right. Regardless of any explanation


As alrady mentioned, as long there is no detailed penetration, the Mg will never work or be as realistic as it was in real live. You will always be possible to be killed by riflemens, in a unrealistic way, acuse of, cliping, extrem fast accuracy, leaning, pop up shoting etc.

Lot of the tactics riflemen doing here, would not even work one time in real. You can not even use a usual car as cover from a MG, the shots just go through and there is a high risk that one of the shots hits you.

When you deploy your Mg, you expose most of the time way more from your body then the riflemen in cover! Think about it. he needs to just lean around it or to stand a bit more up, for aiming. I noticed that when you deploy your MG you are always a slightly bit higher then with usual aiming. That all is realistic. But the key problem is, there is no penetration. Shots that would kill your target in real life easily, dont do any harm to the target in game. You see a inch of the player, shoot at it with 5 bullets. Now you have luck and one shot hits him from that 5 while in real life, the chance for a hit would be maybe even 2 or 3 hits, the edge of a material, sandbags, stones etc. are not magicaly resistand to bullets. The bullet just penetrates that part, produces richochets with splinters, that either kill or harm the target. In game, they all get catched up from the surface. The riflemen on the other hand, most of the time even rested in ridicolous positions, needs just one single well aimed shot, and i noticed that supression has not a that greet effect when the rifle is rested, you still can hit with great accuracy. I call it the pixel-war. You just see a pixel of the enemy and get always a hit. And something that should not be forget, a hit doesnt throw your aim off. I had situations with the mg where i have hit the riflemen, BUT in the hand, leg or arm, it doesnt throw his aim off. He shots. And scores a hit.

A team sticking to the guner, cause they get for example his scores as well, would make the game lot more realistic. It makes the mg not more accurate and doesnt fix the penetration problem. But as someone already mentioned

Even if this idea won't do what it intended fully, its definately a step in the right direction.

"That's one small step for the riflemen; one giant leap for the machineguner"

 

[Moleman]

I really like Murphy's idea. A major part of infantry doctrine in WW2 involved bringing the squad's LMG to bear on the enemy - despite what you see in war films, the LMG was the heart of the squad, provided most of the long-range firepower and caused most of the enemy casualties. IRL (in Commonwealth squads using the Bren gun, at least) the squad would split into two with the 'fire' section (Bren + several riflemen) forming a base of fire and giving cover/supression whilst the 'manouver' section (automatics + the rest of the riflemen) advanced.

Getting points for keeping the MGer alive in the game (a few guys hanging back with him rather than charging forward) would kind of simulate the 'fire' section.

While on the subject of resupplying MGs:

good thing =
giving the MG man ammo by approaching under cover, crawling up behind him, resupplying and crawling away
bad thing =
running in front of the gunner, standing on top of him until you find the 'Press G' sweet-spot and then running off. You've just given his position away. You get your 5 points and leg it, but the MG man promptly gets shot. I hate it when that happens (and I hate it even more when I didn't need the ammo in the first place).

 

[slyder73]

I don't know if it is possible but my idea would be if you resupply an mg there is a radius that is set that you can't leave. The MGer is the center of the circle you are allowed to be in. If you leave the circle a message will appear similar to the you are leaving the combat zone. If you leave it you will lose the mg points. So basically it is enforcing you to stay and protect your mger for a certain time amount for 5 points or maybe an increased amount.

The whole point is to be able to supply him fast and move on, to help your team cap those objectives/repel from objectives or retake an objective. The MG, if in a good place and the team is communicating does not need anyone around him longer than it takes to press your resupply button.

Teamwork and keeping the team mobile towards objectives is what wins, not protecting the MG in a static place. The changes suggested would break up teamwork trying to get objectives and encourage people to lay down and say down which is already a problem.