Antilag

[cisco256]

before i got the game, i checked the unreal engine version, and it was a version that had antilag code integrated according to an official unreal source.

today i joined a server which had the map ro-coretraining running, which has nice moving targets on a shooting range. i played that for a while with 120 ping and then decided to compare it to 0 ping when hosting it localy.

to my suprise, it showed that there isnt any antilag at all shooting the moving targets. i always found the great distance i need to aim ahead quite suspicious. and realy with 0 ping i only needed to aim ahead a fraction of the distance needed at 120ms.

anyone got any idea why the antilag code doesnt seem to work? aiming should be like with 0 ping as long as the ping is stable. is it a server variable that ppl turn off because they want an advantage over ppl with higher ping? antilag is the greatest piece of code that found its way into shooters ever, and i'm pretty baffled why it doesnt seem to be used in RO.

 

[Capt.Marion]

lag is usually a user-end problem. That server may have also been on a different continent from you. I know that I rarely get any lag, in CS, RO, and other games

 

[cisco256]

i'm talking about a feature

antilag (or unlagged) is a piece of code that makes the server consider each players ping. that mean that you do not need to take your ping into account when aiming.

when you shoot, the packet travels to the server. without antilag, the server uses the data (your location, direction etc) just as if you would have shot in the moment the server received the packet. thus when you aim ahead in order to hit a moving target you got to consider 3 things, bullet speed, distance and ping.

with antilag the server takes your ping into account. it basicaly means he knows what you were looking at in the moment you were shooting. thus you only got to take 2 things into account, distance and bullet speed. this is the only way to ensure a non ping dominated gameplay, especialy in fast shooters.

there is different "levels" of implementing it, from purely aim related to also kill related. some ppl (low pingers) like to whine about it, because at full implementation (ie aim+kill related) for a low pinger it can look like he should have killed the high pinger, but the high pinger kills the low pinger anyway, because he was faster (ignoring his latency).

even at full implementation, the only thing to complain about is this purely cosmetic problem. when the implementation is only related to the aiming, there is no problems at all afaik.

so its not lag related the way you understood it

 

[Hyperion2010]

Search for threads on prediction, there was alot of discussion about this awhile back because source uses prediction and antilag code and the conclusion that was reached was that ROO does it better

 

[MILK]

some times you have to lead your aiming with incredible distance - while sniping I had to lead about 1 meter on 100m far enemy... this is ofcourse problem between server and my PC but it is very inconsistent for different servers and thus I always has to shoot 10-20 shots to be sure how much I have to lead on that servers. Imo it sux a little because it totaly ruin idea of real bullet trajectory and all with that connected... but I can live with that...

 

[DirtyRat]

Ro was the first game I could play with a ping of about 150 and not notice any real difference in gameplay, I've not experienced this problem really even when playing on US servers (i live in UK)

 

[SiC-Disaster]

Ro was the first game I could play with a ping of about 150 and not notice any real difference in gameplay, I've not experienced this problem really even when playing on US servers (i live in UK)

Quoted For Truth. I never get the feeling i have to aim farther ahead on higher pings, or at least not noticeable to me. Then again, my ping is usually 30-50 in most servers, 70 on some

 

[Murphy]

before i got the game, i checked the unreal engine version, and it was a version that had antilag code integrated according to an official unreal source.

That's extremely hard to tell, because the Unrealengine 2.5 isn't a fixed engine version but it is freely expandibly by the developers. Some UE2.5 games have dynamic lighting and bumpmaps (Deus Ex 2), some have bloom (RO) etc.

And even if there is no antilag in RO I don't think that that's a problem other than a missing point on a features-list, because I never had a problem with lag in this game.
My ping is between 50 (very rare) and 180 (also very rare) and most of the time I'm somewhere around 70-100, and I never feel lag.
With a ping of 150 some games are close to unplayable or at least you are at a heavy disadvantage. In RO a ping of 150 isn't even noticable.


I think you donfuse lag with real bullet physics, because as te bullets take time you need to aim ahead. That has nothing to do with the ping though. It also occurs in offline matches.

 

[smokeythebear]

I'm in Canada and I can still use a bolt effectively on the 44slot corbina server . I really don't notice any difference for higher pings while playing.

 

[Xendance]

Some piece of code doesn't make switches and routers transmit signals faster.

 

[Cnnbs]

Some piece of code doesn't make switches and routers transmit signals faster.

Nobody is talking about that,u missed the point.

 

[Murphy]

It can slow it down for everyone else to level the playing field though. Some whise guys actually thought that this would be great for online games and there are a few games that work like that. That's why "high-pingers" are kicked sometimes, even in games that work differently because they are believed to cause lag, which is nonsense of course (at least on most games).

Also some games require you to aim ahead while some games require you to shoot where the enemy was before he moved. In some games the high-pinger is at an advantage because he teleports through the level while he is still able to shoot normally, while in some games a high ping is only bad the the one with the high ping because he can't shoot without having to compensate for the ping while others see him walking regularily just like he should.

All of these differences have nothing to do with how the signal is transmitted.

 

[cisco256]

Search for threads on prediction, there was alot of discussion about this awhile back because
source uses prediction and antilag code and the conclusion that was reached was that ROO does it
better

will do, thanks. although i cant realy agree as the difference between 0 ping and 120 ping is
rather big, at least when shooting those moving targets which are part of the mentioned map. it is
possible though that those entities are not included in the prediction, if there is any, thats why i'm asking. gonna check after typing this post.

some times you have to lead your aiming with incredible distance - while sniping I had to lead about 1 meter on 100m far enemy... this is ofcourse problem between server and my PC but it is very inconsistent for different servers and thus I always has to shoot 10-20 shots to be sure how much I have to lead on that servers. Imo it sux a little because it totaly ruin idea of real bullet trajectory and all with that connected... but I can live with that...
that and the fact that i always thought the distance i need to aim ahead is pretty massive.

thats exactly what antilag is about. or its half of it. the other half (doesnt need to be included though)
is to prevent low pingers killing high pingers before they even got a chance to react. to make it less of a problem, make sure you always choose servers with same ping and make sure your bandwidth usage isnt set too high for your connection, so your ping stays as stable as possible.

That's extremely hard to tell, because the Unrealengine 2.5 isn't a fixed engine version but it is
freely expandibly by the developers. Some UE2.5 games have dynamic lighting and bumpmaps (Deus Ex 2), some
have bloom (RO) etc.
And even if there is no antilag in RO I don't think that that's a problem other than a missing point on a
features-list, because I never had a problem with lag in this game. ...

you confuse lag with latency. this feature should be actualy called "anti-latency" instead of antilag to
describe it more correctly.

I'm in Canada and I can still use a bolt effectively on the 44slot corbina server . I really don't
notice any difference for higher pings while playing.

im playing ro since it went gold and i wasnt 100% sure either as i basicaly got same ping always. i was
just always suspicous because, as mentioned before, the distance to lead ahead seemed always rather
extreme to me. to realy note the difference i needed to play a map with moving targets (map-objects) on a
server with my regular ping, and then play this map on a listen server with 0 ping. and after that i
started this thread.

It can slow it down for everyone else to level the playing field though.

only if the server is getting lagged (cpu/ram wise) otherwise antilag doesnt slow anything if done
correctly.

That's why "high-pingers" are kicked sometimes, even in games that work differently because they
are believed to cause lag, which is nonsense of course (at least on most games).

yep, thats rather normal and easy to explain. its basicaly caused by what i call the generation of
"dsl-kids". older players started out with old analogue modems and are used to targets that move a bit
choppy at times (or most of the time, depending on how lucky you were). and even with this choppyness you
can become pretty good. now if someone like this went into battle with the "dsl-kids" who only know
"perfect" connection, they seem to be harder opponents to them, because of moving a bit choppy. someone
who is only used to smooth targets and not used to shoot at where the targets is assumed to be, can have a
hard time hitting anything. just like the person on the bad connection when he started to play shooters
online. so what they do is "i cant kill him, so kick him" i always wondered why they do not use interpolation on server side. would make a lagging target much easier to hit. maybe because him being out of sync due to this poses new problems? or too cpu instensive? who knows

In some games the high-pinger is at an advantage because he teleports through the level while he
is still able to shoot normally

thats not completely correct, as the "lagger" is usualy also effected (hes more used to it though). it can
be caused by packetloss or extreme lag spikes, but even with antilag you suffer reduced playability then.
the difference is though that the person who is used to jumpy ping, can compensate it better then someone
who isnt. to call that an advantage is way over the line though and if its caused by loss, its even
worse for the effected player as hes basicaly "shooting the void" with a percentage of his shots equivalent to his
packet loss.

while in some games a high ping is only bad the the one with the high ping because he can't shoot
without having to compensate for the ping while others see him walking regularily just like he
should.

yep, thats right, but of course everyone has "lag". normaly the engine of a shooter renders the picture
about 30ms after receiving the packet (to allow interpolation, because the game usualy runs with more
frames per second as packets received per second). that adds to the latency players have.
unless antilag is used, everyone is affected, although with a ping below 50 its hardly noticable.

the only ppl who are against antilag are normaly ppl with realy low ping, because obviously the game becomes way
harder for them when suddenly the playing field is even for everyone. and its hard to admit that you were
wining cause of technical advantages if you werent aware of it

 

[cisco256]

With a ping of 150 some games are close to unplayable or at least you are at a heavy disadvantage. In RO a ping of 150 isn't even noticable.

thats to a big part due to the nature of RO where a lot of the combat is done at relatively large range and players move relatively slow. it becomes a lot more obvious when shooting a target that is very close to you.

 

[cisco256]

NO

End of story.

Lag compensation ****s the game up for everyone else and I've seen enough complaints about Source netcode to last a life time.

Games are supposed to be played with a low ping, that is how they SHOULD be played. ROO really benifits from having reasonable ping because while its hit detection is so good you have to be a really good shot.

lol, im reading through the threads and came across this, and its exactly the sort of comment i was talking about

 

[Zetsumei]

ping compensation hardly ever works ok. If my ping is high atleast i can compensate for it myself and i trust myself more than some computer calculating it for me.

But its indeed ****ty to have to shoot ahead. In far distances you might have to shoot 1 meter ahead of the target. But you need to shoot the exact same ahead of target on close distances. And thats annoying when killing an smg at point blank range. because its unnatural to shoot a meter ahead

 

[cisco256]

Just to clarify, Red Orchestra does not use hit prediction at all .

damn, thats exactly what i thought after comparing the targets to 0 ping. for ppl with higher ping then the rest of the server it means to stay back, let others open doors and avoid any short distance encounters.

realy a pitty, but it explains why i dislike fighting in first line in this game, which i normaly prefer. another win for the whiners i guess

anyway, RO is still fun, although this sadly is a flaw for everyone with not having lowest ping. fortunately you can camp easily here and pick off enemies from far for most of the parts.

now probably some posts of the "i got high ping but i hate antilag" sort come. and some remarks about how horribly the netcode gets wasted with antilag. and how dying behing a corner and moving around a corner is totaly wasting gameplay (even though lowpingers still got the advantage and its the same thing for both players)

oh well, thats life

 

[cisco256]

ping compensation hardly ever works ok. If my ping is high atleast i can compensate for it myself and i trust myself more than some computer calculating it for me.

its not calculated for you, the computer simply knows what you were shooting at, thats all.

edit: PS. see, i can predict some things also (points at zetsu) no offense he was 4 minutes too fast though, i should have typed faster

 

[cisco256]

ps. i just would like to mention that antilag is not realy prediction at all, but here on the forum it seems to be used to refer to antilag/unlagged.

so if i missunderstood, and RO has no prediction (which when the term is used correctly is a client side feature) but does have antilag (which is serverside), enlighten me plz.

 

[cisco256]

while im at it, i can give a short explanation of how i know the 3 terms.

antilag/unlagged means that the server takes your ping into account when shooting. so you only worry about what you see. sideeffects exist but to not cause imbalance between low and high pingers at all. it merely gives a moving player an advantage when moving around corners, and it can cause you to die after you think you have reached cover (fact is though that you die because you did not reach cover in time, your death animation is simply delayed, thats all)

prediction is merely client side. when the server uses antilag, and you dont use prediction then your shots look off (they seem to hit far behind the moving target). if you know RTCW, you got a nice example of no prediction. the tracers of your shots seem "elastic" in relation to your movement. as if you try to poke the target with an elastic stick.

that is because you see where your shots realy hit (from perspective of the server when antilag is turned off). so if the server does use antilag, you need prediction so you see where your shots hit without having to wait for the server to show you where you hit.

of course, if your ping is very unstable and laggy, the prediction can be confusing and should be turned off (even on a server with antilag). which is no problem though, because prediction is just a client side variable.

so as summary you can say there is only 2 reasons to not use antilag. those are to either protect campers or to ensure low pingers can have an advantage. in ROO i suppose it might be to protect campers, after all camping is an important part of the game. although imho, considering the usual map layouts used, the campers dont realy need this protection here.

and you can say that prediction can not cause any trouble at all, because its a client side variable which can be turned of if desired.

edit: evil note: if you see someone saying something in the lines of "prediction is something realy bad", then chances are good that they mean antilag, but do not realy know what they are talking about although that is purely meant for players, not devs, as the usage of terms can vary a lot (eg movement prediction on server, that would be unrelated to this topic though). of course ppl who encounter a new feature which lowers their score in comparison to others (or makes them die without that they understand why they died) will say anything to make it look bad. thats simply the nature of humans