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Can a Nashorn destroy an IS2 at 4600m?

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#21
Alright here we go again.:mad:

Before you start making accusations which country lied in which war maybe you should start looking a little further and you may find overclaiming happened on both sides.

But maybe bolt you have some great knowledge on Luftwaffe (over-)claims I don't know. Post it then, 'cause I have similar stuff for Allied pilots by the dozen.

On topic: the range probably was misjudged if the account ever even happened at all. As far as biased information goes, wikipedia takes the crown anyway.
 
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#23
KrazyKraut, I didn't say Allied pilots didn't lie, did I? I answered to, in my opinion, false statement that German troops are reliable source of information and I did say - I can't speak about tank corps. I've already posted some information/thoughts about Hartmann in this topic: http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7586&page=2&highlight=luftwaffe+aces

I don't want to start a flame war or something. So let us keep things on topic in this thread - I appologise for my off-topic answer.
 
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#25
This claim may perhaps be seen in the context of similar claims using the 88mm KwK 43/ L71:

"Kurt Knispel knocked out a T34 at a range of 3000m in his Koenigstiger in November 1944 ('Panzer Aces 2'), an Uffz. Bohling of sPzJgAbt 654 knocked out a 'General Lee' also at 3000m on 23.7.44 in his Ferdinand/Elefant ('Combat History of schwere Panzerjaeger Abteilung 654') and in autumn 1944 an Elefant of schwere Heeres-Panzerjaeger Kompanie 614 knocked out a T34 at 4500m ('Combat History of schwere Panzerjaeger Abteilung 653')" - http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15601
 
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#26
Bolt said:
KrazyKraut, I didn't say Allied pilots didn't lie, did I? I answered to, in my opinion, false statement that German troops are reliable source of information and I did say - I can't speak about tank corps. I've already posted some information/thoughts about Hartmann in this topic: http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7586&page=2&highlight=luftwaffe+aces

I don't want to start a flame war or something. So let us keep things on topic in this thread - I appologise for my off-topic answer.
Click to expand...
I just glanced over that topic and... goddamn... you people must have big nuts really. You sit in the comfort of your armchairs with a cup of hot cocoa and call people liars or find plotholes in their stories or whatnot. Spare me the semantics. These people fought in a war. You compare Hartmann to a bully who strikes down his victims. What do your propose? Both pilots land and have a classic duel with pistols? Get a grip. I want to see you in a fighter plane barely holding itself in the air fighting enemies in superior numbers and then imply again that Hartmann was a coward saying something like "He was afraid to attack them." You really think war is some kind of sport do you?

Now you're going to sooner or later find occasions where a pilot claimed a kill and no plane was lost on the other side on that day at that time and in that place... so what? You think air combat is like RO where a kill message is displayed? You think people should go out and find the shot down planes? Like they had nothing better to do? Do you really think we, knowing about air combat in a piston plane merely from books, movies or computer games, should judge these men? I for one think we should be a tad more careful talking about things we have close to NO idea of what they are really like.

Do you have a right to doubt them? Of course. Comparing allied and axis victory claims on any theatre shows that they are ALWAYS way higher than the actual losses and even more so when fighting over enemy territory. Other things that come into play are tactics (German air kills were in many fights almost solely scored by wing leaders while western allies tended to distribute them more evenly), scoring systems and foremost service length. Some Germans flew over 1000 sorties, for comparison Kozhedub flew around 300. For any pilot fighting in this war the number of claimed vitories is an approximation rather than fact. But what you are doing there is simply downtalking a man on the basis that you don't like "fashists", even though Hartmann was far from being that.
That concludes my topic-destroying speech.
 
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#28
In the autumn 1944, Hungary. 7 self-propelled guns ( ISU-122 ) , from distance of 7 kilometers shot on a column of German tanks. Result 3 killed Panthers.
For a gun of calibre of 122 mm, it is a usual distance.
But here it is necessary to know details.
1 Self-propelled guns stood at top of a hill.
2. They received coordinate of the target is centralized.
3. Coordinates of the target were calculated by the commander.
4. They did not search for the target independently.
5. The target was a tanks column. The group target.
6. Self-propelled guns very seldom made it. They had few shells.
 
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#31
Fatpartizan: In the case of 7 ISU-122's they would have been used in a Indirect fire role. Somebody called for fire and given the map coordinates the ISU's adjusted fire. No problem using the ISU's in this mode (as did the germans and Allies). At 7 KM's it is virtually impossible to see anything even using high powered optics unless you have near optimum light, humidity and particulate matter. All one needs to do is read the manuals for any of these tanks and you will find that there is no ballistic solution available for ranges beyond 3000 meters (large caliber guns). Anything beyond that, it was pure luck. If any one is in Germany, you must go to the Bundes Technik Musuem in Koblenz. They show a good progression of tank optics during and after WW2 and their range capabilities.
 
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#36
how was the 4600m measured?

let me give you an example
sorry for teh bad drawing

baddrawing8mr.jpg
 
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#38
tropsobor said:
how was the 4600m measured?
Click to expand...
The definition of the distance between two points is the shortest way from one to another.

However, given that laser distance measuring wasn't around back then and the range-finding optics probabaly (merely guessing here) didn't go that far, it is possible the distance was measured as shown in your (absolutely suitable and to the point, I have to add!) drawing.
 
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#39
A couple of points:

1. The longest sniper kill on record is held by a Canadian sniper in Afghanistan: 2430 meters.

It seems to me if a man with a rifle can hit another man at that distance it's not out of the realm of believability that a Nashorn could hit an IS2 at 4600m.

2. The gun on the Nashorn was originally designed as an anti-aircraft piece were, I would assume, the usual combat ranges would be well in excess of 4000m.

3. German optics were of very high quality.

4. One of the very few advantages of a SP gun like the Nashorn is that the crew has plenty of room to work. Firing from ambush, I would expect a Nashorn to be even more accurate than a Tiger 2, all other things being equal. In fact, given the height of the Nashorn, I might expect it to be the most accurate german AFV, from a gunnery point of view.

I'm not saying the Nashorn made the shot. I'm just saying that it doesn't seem to be completely out of the realm of possibility.
 
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#40
DAT said:
Fatpartizan: In the case of 7 ISU-122's they would have been used in a Indirect fire role. Somebody called for fire and given the map coordinates the ISU's adjusted fire. No problem using the ISU's in this mode (as did the germans and Allies). At 7 KM's it is virtually impossible to see anything even using high powered optics unless you have near optimum light, humidity and particulate matter. All one needs to do is read the manuals for any of these tanks and you will find that there is no ballistic solution available for ranges beyond 3000 meters (large caliber guns). Anything beyond that, it was pure luck. If any one is in Germany, you must go to the Bundes Technik Musuem in Koblenz. They show a good progression of tank optics during and after WW2 and their range capabilities.
Click to expand...


In the autumn 1944, Hungary. 7 self-propelled guns ( ISU-122 ) , from distance of 7 kilometers shot on a column of German tanks. Result 3 killed Panthers.
Click to expand...

Mistake .:( :( :( Rumania, 2-5 May1944.Targul Frumos
Russian transcription. Тыргу-Фрумос.
I think links in English simply does not exist. This episode of war too is not so popular in the Russian and Soviet historians. The most hard defeat of the Soviet tank armies after Prohorovka .

This episode I have found in the brochure contained examples of use of tanks. It was not propaganda material. I cannot lay out scanns, it was in 1995:) . It has been printed in the beginning of the 60-th, 5.000 copies. Some time back , i saw a link with the description of this case. But could not find it now.

I shall try to ask a question to Mihail Svirin. He is the author of several books about the Soviet tanks. Better nobody knows this theme. If the old man will have time and good mood , that we can receive Details . He often appears here .http://forum.sudden-strike.ru/showthread.php?t=6438&page=66
 
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