Beta Map [Beta 1] RO-Berezina

[Slyk]

I was going to up the Russian number from 240 to 280. I am looking at ways to move the Germans a bit closer to the '2nd Line' but there isn't much to do that allows them freedom of movement in choosing flanks/directions. I think the biggest thing is that the German team MUST get their act together and MUST use teamwork. If it means using one round of arty to soften the trenchworks, then an immediate rush by HTs with more than ONE person in them, and Panzers ADVANCING on the line firing HE at it while one tries to keep the KVs busy. Panzers should never be sitting high-profile on the '1st Line' ridge saying "KILL ME PLEASE!". The KVs and PTs feed on that crap, keep your butts moving and flank hard, and keep flanking to displace the KVs and lessen the damage the PTs soldiers can do. It's a simple concept.

In the rounds that the Germans work together, they can certainly roll up the first two defense lines without much trouble. But it requires a lot of willing players and coordination. As a Russian, it can be a beautifully boring day in that 2nd line. One round as Squad Leader, all I did was run from left to right, checking on the troops and watching for flanking attacks. I dropped arty ONE time. We held for nearly 45 minutes. Due to two things: 1) poor pathetic team play by the Germans, and 2) superior sacrifice and determination by the Russians. We finally pulled out due to mounting losses and nearly won the round holding the river....WOULD have won had everyone been willing to sit tight...see above rant post.

 

[Oi!Oi!Oi!]

I think you should add mine fields that blocks Germans from going behind Russian lines (without blocking flanking routes). The temptation to do so is too great especially when capping the first and second line seems impossible. The mine fields would disappear as the objectives are captured

 

[Mobius One]

How many artillery strikes do the Russians have? I was playing the map earlier today and this one Russian Squad Leader just kept spamming the German spawn point over and over again, he must've gotten like 50 kills, no joke.

Oh, and spawn protection should be added into a Beta 2, from your first post, it seemed like it would be considered. Russians always camp there, pisses me off. One time, a KV-1S was just blocking a doorway and MG'ing anyone that got out. Not too fun.

 

[kabex]

How many artillery strikes do the Russians have? I was playing the map earlier today and this one Russian Squad Leader just kept spamming the German spawn point over and over again, he must've gotten like 50 kills, no joke.

Oh, and spawn protection should be added into a Beta 2, from your first post, it seemed like it would be considered. Russians always camp there, pisses me off. One time, a KV-1S was just blocking a doorway and MG'ing anyone that got out. Not too fun.

Russians get 5 or 6 artillery strikes. I use them all up quite fast.

 

[pookie]

I think the balance is perfect. I played on the ss.9 (or something like that) server the other day, and we (Russians) had a smart and vocal commander who made use of strategic retreats, saved the arty for the end game at east bank, and was generally on top of things. We won several rounds by conserving our reinforcements and not trying to hold the forward positions once we were overrun. The sense of desperation for the Russians is right on, and very enjoyable. It's nearly impossible if you don't have a cohesive team, but if everyone follows orders then a Russian win is achievable.

The best was at east bank, with 0% and axis troop pouring into the trenches as the clock ran out! Whee!

Again, great map!

 

[You're Terrible]

Tanks:

The map centers around armor too much, and at certain points I've seen both sides with 4 tanks; which is entirely too many for a combined arms map with 16 player teams.

Unused tanks from previous objectives need to be destroyed as the objectives are taken, and stop spawning for the germans. I was looking forward to the original vision of vehicles being a resource, instead of bf2 :/

Please do not add more tanks, it just makes the game more boring for the people who are stuck as infantry.

Classes:

Tank crewman should not get SMGs. It makes it really easy to assault the trenches / village after bailing out. An SMG for the tank commander, and pistols for the regular crew would be best.

Russian Squad Leader should be able to use a SVT40 as well as the SMGs.

Giving Assault Engineers the choice of a Bolt Action or SMG.

Snipers should be removed, as they just make the game boring for the poor bastards stuck as infantry since getting blown up with HE, or Mowed down by a hull or coax MG that you can do nothing about it pretty commonplace and frustrating without adding getting shot by someone you can't see...



Overall I really like the map, but I feel the amount of players soaked up in the vehicle related slots really brings down the intensity of the infantry firefights. As a result makes the map grow really stale and feel slow paced as a rifleman for either side, since if you get a kill it's nearly always 1v1 and in a cap zone.

 

[Slyk]

Thought it easier to answer inside the quote as I think you raise several issues that need to be addressed and other must wonder as well....

Tanks:

The map centers around armor too much, and at certain points I've seen both sides with 4 tanks; which is entirely too many for a combined arms map with 16 player teams.
+ This can happen at certain times, mainly for the Germans if they run back to pick up unused tanks from the prior spawn location. Once the unused tanks are moved, they should not respawn. I have asked the developers and as far as they know, you cannont remove spawned vehicles. I have a few ideas on scripting something but need time to work on that idea. For the Russians, it does work properly...as their spawns are disabled, their tanks stop respawning. The tanker classes are now: German 6 and Russian 4, for beta2.

Unused tanks from previous objectives need to be destroyed as the objectives are taken, and stop spawning for the germans. I was looking forward to the original vision of vehicles being a resource, instead of bf2 :/
+ See above. I like the resource too, but some high level input suggested that it was not worth it and idiots tankers can kill their teams chances by wasting armor.

Please do not add more tanks, it just makes the game more boring for the people who are stuck as infantry.
+ See above.

Classes:

Tank crewman should not get SMGs. It makes it really easy to assault the trenches / village after bailing out. An SMG for the tank commander, and pistols for the regular crew would be best.
+ This has been changed in beta2. Only Tank Commander has an SMG. Other crew get only a pistol.

Russian Squad Leader should be able to use a SVT40 as well as the SMGs.
+ No on the SVT. Too few in use and the Russians don't need the firepower.

Giving Assault Engineers the choice of a Bolt Action or SMG.
+ Changed. They now have two satchels each team and have either the Kar or M38. May add back the SMG choice.

Snipers should be removed, as they just make the game boring for the poor bastards stuck as infantry since getting blown up with HE, or Mowed down by a hull or coax MG that you can do nothing about it pretty commonplace and frustrating without adding getting shot by someone you can't see...
+ This is a discussion point but there are a number of players who like this class and it appeals to them. I see no reason to pull it. Don't stand still for too long. Snipers genearlly should be working to hunt the other guy and neutralise eachother.



Overall I really like the map, but I feel the amount of players soaked up in the vehicle related slots really brings down the intensity of the infantry firefights. As a result makes the map grow really stale and feel slow paced as a rifleman for either side, since if you get a kill it's nearly always 1v1 and in a cap zone.

 

[Monkwarrior]

Minor thing: why give tankcrew any real weapons besides a pistol ?
Many times tanks are driven alone and out pops a very effective infantry-soldier. I would suggest for all tank-crew to issue a pistol only: it could promote teamwork (they really need their infantry buddies at those moments). They choose their role, let's not give them the opportunity to "suddenly switch role ingame"

I still agree with Terrible: the map still feels like a deserted battlefield. I have no solution for this I'm afraid.
The enthousiastic comments seem to come from tank-crew & commanders, just curious if infantry-players like myself like this map too

Monk.

 

[Panzer Meyer]

Minor thing: why give tankcrew any real weapons besides a pistol ?
Many times tanks are driven alone and out pops a very effective infantry-soldier. I would suggest for all tank-crew to issue a pistol only: it could promote teamwork (they really need their infantry buddies at those moments). They choose their role, let's not give them the opportunity to "suddenly switch role ingame"

I still agree with Terrible: the map still feels like a deserted battlefield. I have no solution for this I'm afraid.
The enthousiastic comments seem to come from tank-crew & commanders, just curious if infantry-players like myself like this map too

Monk.

I agree with the tank crews should only get pistols, I am guilty of bailing out by the trenches and clearing them with my SMG. Of course only after my tank was severly damaged.

For infantry, it is and can be fun. It highly depends on what type of people are playing at the moment though. Crappy team = no teamwork and a not so good of a time.

However last night, I was infantry on the Russian team (engineer) and had a blast. I was basicly leading the team or giving out orders, and people listened which was nice. We got pushed back to the farm and held it for about 35 minutes thanks to great team work. Our KVs were on overwatch most of the time, taking out German tanks as they came over the ridgeline.

I and most of the infantry were in the farm defending it. The German team was good too however and they soon switched tactics and acutally attacked in mass. At one point it go quiet, and people were asking where are the Germans. We soon found out.

3 Tanks, and 2 half tracks full of infantry and on foot infantry attacked on the extremem left flank (SW) of the Farm. It was intense and 2 of the tank crews were smart and stayed back. They were in a small depression so the KVs were not able to get them for up on the ridge and us engineers couldn't get to them. They provided text book cover for their advancing infantry.

I called for the KVs to come down and lend us some help and they did. And the sqaud leader on request laid down a barrage on the SW edge of the farm. The Germans did make it into the farm and close combat insued but eventually we got them out. I was succesful in taking out one of the tanks with a Satchel only to be killed by German infantry.

Like many have said, with great teams on both sides this map is amazing, it really is. I can't really make too many suggestions, other than reduce the number of tanks. Sometimes it feels too tank heavy of a map.

 

[Rameusb5]

Finally got to play this map for the first time last night...

Awesome.

This makes me wish they can up the player limit to 64 (or higher) someday soon.

 

[Helmut_AUT]

The enthousiastic comments seem to come from tank-crew & commanders, just curious if infantry-players like myself like this map too

Monk.

Yes. I played this as Engineer for almost two hours and liked it a lot. I actually liked it less as a tanker.

3 Tanks, and 2 half tracks full of infantry and on foot infantry attacked on the extremem left flank (SW) of the Farm. It was intense and 2 of the tank crews were smart and stayed back. They were in a small depression so the KVs were not able to get them for up on the ridge and us engineers couldn't get to them. They provided text book cover for their advancing infantry.

Somehow this map makes people use real infantry and Combined Arms tactics. Can't be paid in gold.

 

[Witzig]

You can get rid of too Many Tanks easily with the use of timed Artillery on the Vehicle Spawns...

 

[Slyk]

I have added 'no arty' volumes over all vehicle spawns and in most cases, this also covers infantry spawns.

I also added 'minefields' to add spawn protection, mainly for the Germans and working on Russian although generally they don't need it and it is more of a challenge not to limit the flanking options for the Germans.

I chose to use the message

 

[Harry S. Truman]

I'm liking this map, but it seems a bit TOO large for a combined arms map. Seems like you spend most of your time alone...

 

[Ron]

I'm liking this map, but it seems a bit TOO large for a combined arms map. Seems like you spend most of your time alone...

On servers where there is good communication and teamwork this aint a problem if people would attack where they were supposed to and russians defend the current objective instead trying to capture greyed out objectives like retards then there would be no complaining.

 

[Slyk]

I know it is a big map, but I can

 

[sander]

You can only be alone when you are at points where you're not supposed to be. When the object is get the Farm than everybody is in and around the farm. When that object is taken everybody moves to the next one.

 

[Panzer Meyer]

I never feel alone on this map. I guess it comes from a lack of teamwork when people do whatever the hell they want. But with a good team I always had teamates around, never solo tanked and so on.

As far as the early war stuff Slyk. I'd go for the T-60 being a BT-7. Untill you can model and come up with an actual real BT7. Actually, wouldn't it be better to model it as a T26. Its appearence is a a lot closer to a T26 than a BT7.

 

[Starrkiller]

GET IT THROUGH YOUR BRAINS, PEOPLE, YOU CAN NOT RECAP THE GREYED OUT OBJECTIVES YOU ARE ONLY WASTING YOUR PRECIOUS REINFORCEMENT POOL CHARGING HEADLONG INTO THE GERMAN ARMOR. WHAT PART OF FALL BACK TO THE FREAKING RIVER LINE DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND???????????????????????????? AND WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU SPAWN IN PERFECT COVER YET LEAVE SAID COVER TO RUN OVER 50 YARDS OF NAKED RIVER, CRAWL UP THE WEST BANK AND CONTINUE TO RUN STRAIGHT AT PANZERS??????????????????????????
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

I serioulsy felt like TKing nearly half the team one round...if I'd had a sniper rifle... It is entirely possible for the Russians to fall back with 20-30% reinforcements and HOLD the river line IF they stay put, rely on savy tank use (IE USE THE DAMN HOLES IN THE GROUND and don't jump in an occupied tank and DRIVE IT OUT OF THE FREAKING PIT!!!!!!) and conserve arty to blast any Germans trying to cap the east bank. Furthermore, I decree that the Russian team should ALWAYS fall back, regardless of situation, when they hit 30%. On one occassion the Russian team held the '2nd Line' well into the 30th minute but were being depleted fast by HE rounds. When the KVs are used up, it's time to go. Had the ENTIRE team went with and stuck to the plan, we would have won, not run out of troops with only 3 or so minutes to go.
[/Rant]

I love the map, but I hate most players, the other day, I was Russian, defending the 2nd line in a dug in a kv1, reinforcements where low and I just said "I will kill everything that moves beyond the trenches, enemy or friendly!!!"
That started a laugh about real Russian tactics (shooting people who disobey), but it worked.
We still had to fall back to the bridge, because of reinforcements, and we lost the map with 0 reinforcements.

But this map is amazing, because it is the first map where I saw a whole team (or almost whole) fall back all trough the map to the last objective.

Keep on the good work

 

[Lex]

Once the BT7 is put into this map I think the tank situation will be resolved, but nothing can be done if players do not use the resources properly.

I broke my right upper arm so modeling and animation is a slower and more tedious process working with my left hand, especially when it comes to holding down a key and moving the mouse with one arm. Hopefully we will get it in and working properly before the finial release. It will not look or handle as good as the stock vehicles, but once I get this one in game and I get the use of my right arm and hand the ones that follow will be much better. I was in the process of adding more details and fixing little problem areas when I broke my arm, so now these things will go undone and I am concentrating on the animations and rigging aspects of the model.
I'm sure when it is finally in game I will hear about all of the things that is wrong with it as far as looks and handling, but at least I will have it in game and can learn from it to build better models from that point on, plus I will have two hands to work with again.

As far as infantry goes I have played on servers with players that are good and know how to work as a team, and on some that don't. If the map is changed to accommodate the groups that aren't as good the map will be less enjoyable for those that are good. I think Slyk has the right idea in making the map for the players that use tactics and know how RO is to be played, then to dummy it down for the less fortunate. He has a few minor tweaks here and there and I think the map will be as good as it can get. Slyk has made a lot of changes already and is ready to release his next beta but he has slowed the process down to give me a chance to get the BT7 closer to being done.

I'm sure that if he releases the next beta with the T60 working like the BT7 he will hear all kinds of negative feed back from people that don't have a clue about how he wants to get it in there so he can determine the balance of tanks when cutting out KV-1's. But that is the reason for beta testing and if he doesn't do it now he will have to release the map hopefully with the BT7s and not have the tanks balanced. Slyk loves to try new things to make the game more enjoyable, so be patient and give constructive criticism and let his ideas work through the beta stages and the community will profit from it just like the UO community did with the CNQ game type.

Lex