Crew Shock

[Sgt.Rock]

I think there should be some kind of suppressing effect when a tank takes a penetrating hit from another tank (the crew goes into shock).

As of right now, tank combat is kinda like turn-based fighting. I fire, you fire, I fire, you fire, and the winner is usually the one that fires first.

But changes when a weaker tank fights a stronger tank, like a T34 hits a panther on the side and penetrates, the panther just turns on the t34, and from there fires until the T34 is dead, while taking hits that richochet.
Or in another case, a weaker tank like a Panzer 4 is able to get a penetrating shot on an IS2 in the front (like on the front turret), but then the IS2 just one shots the Panzer 4.

If I manage to get the jump on another tank, especially if Im in a weaker tank, I should be able to maintain that advantage if Im competant at all.

So what Im saying is add some kind of suppressing effect, like pull the gunner to the capula view, stop reloading, add smoke and add vision blur. Pull the driver back if unbottoned, maybe even have the tank stop, add smoke and vision blur. And if theres a hull gunner, add the vision blur effect.

And if the gunner is unbuttoned make it take more time before hes able to get to the gun sight and add smoke. Also, all positions should take some extra time before being able to operate again.


This would be the next best thing to having tanks that dont just blow up when being knocked out. Take a hit, you know the next round is going to be the KO, so bail out. Also if crew casualties gets added, the would be a precursor and addition to them.

Just a thought.

 

[Reise]

Agree with this idea also, when you've been hit by one or even two enemy rounds (realistically) your crew are either dead/dieing, in shock and clueless, or in the process of getting the hell out. Or even a combination of these things. This would make other less powerful tanks more of a match to the big boys in the right conditions.

Crew casualties is also a very good idea. These two basically go hand-in-hand with eachother.

 

[perato]

I've noticed this turn based thing. Most of the time(and because of the idiotic WASD targeting with tank)stationary tanks win the fight, cuz they hit first. They just stand the whole time in that same place and shoots everything that comes to their field of view.

 

[Oi!Oi!Oi!]

I agree, shots that penetrate and currently make your armor diagram turn yellow and red in the game should also affect the crew. At least with motion blur and slower reload time.

Other shells that bounce should generate a much louder sound inside the tank too.

 

[aesdana]

Very nice idea, some kind of shell shock after impact is needed

Hehe once on Orel I put my face right to the opening in the hull (as the driver) and a shell hit just at my face but nothing happened it just bounced off, felt kind of lame.

 

[Kirq]

Good idea. Im more infantry type guy but i also noticed this turn-based tank duels.

 

[SiC-Disaster]

good idea

 

[Avenger]

Two words solve this problem of tit-for-tat tank combat:

Team tanking.

 

[Sgt.Rock]

Two words solve this problem of tit-for-tat tank combat:

Team tanking.

You can manuever only so much, and if both of you are team tanking than there still is no advantage in catching a superior tank with its pants down.


Anyways Team tanking shouldnt be considered an end all. Its an added advantage, yes, but if sometype of crew shock (and ive heard later there might be crew casualties) is implemented, it would greatly increase immersion, fun, and it would be a realistic addition.

 

[Avenger]

It takes a special kind of idiot to sit there and trade shots with a superior tank and expect to win. I don't drive out in a T34/76 and expect to be killing Panthers with ease. It takes smart maneuvering to get close and get a line of sight to his weak spots and get off a good shot. Even then, success is not guaranteed, so as soon as the shot leaves my barrel, I hit the gas and find cover. Even when I crew an IS2, I openly flaunt the bigger gun and thicker armor, but I don't sit around and wait for a smaller tank to sneak around my flanks and fill me with holes.

I don't know if this "crew shock" thing is actually realistic, anyway. To me, it seems that a shot that penetrated and didn't hit anything vital wouldn't cause the crew any harm. I would be okay with some screen shake if a shot hit and bounced or scattered, but nothing to the degree you're describing.

 

[Sgt.Rock]

It takes a special kind of idiot to sit there and trade shots with a superior tank and expect to win. I don't drive out in a T34/76 and expect to be killing Panthers with ease. It takes smart maneuvering to get close and get a line of sight to his weak spots and get off a good shot. Even then, success is not guaranteed, so as soon as the shot leaves my barrel, I hit the gas and find cover. Even when I crew an IS2, I openly flaunt the bigger gun and thicker armor, but I don't sit around and wait for a smaller tank to sneak around my flanks and fill me with holes.

I don't know if this "crew shock" thing is actually realistic, anyway. To me, it seems that a shot that penetrated and didn't hit anything vital wouldn't cause the crew any harm. I would be okay with some screen shake if a shot hit and bounced or scattered, but nothing to the degree you're describing.

In both situations I described with the weaker tank, it was manuevering to the flanks or attempting to do so. In the turn-base tanks, it would be like a panther and an IS2. Ive taken suprise penetrating hits on my flank in a Panther before by a weaker tank, only to turn on the tank, and either one shot it, or shoot it till its dead, all the while taking hits that only richochet off me.


The problem with RO is they make it seem that you have to hit ammunition or "vital" (this is a funny term, since anywhere on the crew compartment is going to be vital) areas to KO a tank in one hit. What is the shot penetrating in the tank if not either the engine or the crew compartment? What do you think happens when a round enters a crew compartment? It doesnt just stop immediatly. If it doesnt penetrate through the other side completely, it likes to bounce around inside till it loses its kinetic energy. Think of a Ricochet in RO, but on the inside of the tank. Also, the AP round isnt the only thing that enters when it penetrates, molten spall comes as well. And when that touches people, clothes, plastic, wood, almost anything inside the tank, it burns and smokes. Not only that, Im pretty sure that AP rounds in WW2 carried a little bit of explosives in them.


Why do WW2 tank reports for KO'ed tanks usually say they bailed after one penetrating hit? I would say that after a hit penetrated, if your not already dead or wounded, your going to be dazed, confused and in shock from what just happened and how quick it happened.



As a side note (take it or leave it), in CM if your tank takes a hit, and your crew doesnt start bailing immediatly, they go into shock. Also when a tank is moving takes a hit, it slowly comes to a stop. Theres got to be a reason why they do these things.

 

[Sgt.Rock]

It takes a special kind of idiot to sit there and trade shots with a superior tank and expect to win. I don't drive out in a T34/76 and expect to be killing Panthers with ease. It takes smart maneuvering to get close and get a line of sight to his weak spots and get off a good shot. Even then, success is not guaranteed, so as soon as the shot leaves my barrel, I hit the gas and find cover. Even when I crew an IS2, I openly flaunt the bigger gun and thicker armor, but I don't sit around and wait for a smaller tank to sneak around my flanks and fill me with holes.

I don't know if this "crew shock" thing is actually realistic, anyway. To me, it seems that a shot that penetrated and didn't hit anything vital wouldn't cause the crew any harm. I would be okay with some screen shake if a shot hit and bounced or scattered, but nothing to the degree you're describing.

This post needs to be seperated from my realism post.



My whole point was the weaker tank moving to the flanks (or rear) of a superior tank is still at a huge disadvantage even after a shot goes into the crew compartment.


Ever see that footage of the Panther tank getting hit on the side, the crew bailing out, dazed rolling over the top of it before taking more hits? I doubt (and obvously shown) that the panther tank was going to turn hull down and try to retaliate. And I believe it was either an "open" AT gun or a type of sherman (like a 76 or a firefly) (please correct me if Im wrong, I cant quite remember what it was shooting). But my point is, even in the late war there was still nothing (or very little, like maybe a pershing) that the Panther couldnt penetrate, so why didnt they just turn and shoot back?

 

[Phoenix-D]

I don't know if this "crew shock" thing is actually realistic, anyway. To me, it seems that a shot that penetrated and didn't hit anything vital wouldn't cause the crew any harm. I would be okay with some screen shake if a shot hit and bounced or scattered, but nothing to the degree you're describing.

The T-34 actually had crew members killed by *non* pentrating hits on occasion.

Tanks aren't that big. Any shell that penetrates is going to send shrapnel bouncing around the inside and the noise would be overwhelming. Probably wouldn't have a kill with every pentration, but the crew would definitely know they'd been kissed.

 

[Velcro Warrior]

Two words solve this problem of tit-for-tat tank combat:

Team tanking.

Bingo!

A moving target can be damn hard to hit... Once on Orel, 5, if not more, tanks were firing on me from several different directions... I just kept changing my direction and speed, and I was able to survive for at least a few minutes. Now, had I an additional crewman (I was in a T60) he could have returned fire at several of the tanks whilst I was moving...

 

[Avenger]

You do understand that we have to simplify reality for a game, right? I mean, yes, if your tank got hit, you'd piss yourself. No question. But there has to be a line between reality and gameplay here. I would say, shots can either kill crewmembers or they can't. "Crew shock" just sounds like a gimmicky thing to me. It sounds like something that would be completely a matter of individual reaction to an individual situation. It would be very hard to summarize the varied reactions of individual soldiers in multiple situations in to some fair game rules. I don't think it can be done right, and I don't see how it would add to the gameplay.

P.S. : You have to have respect for what the enemy can do to you. Yes, a Panther can kill even the mighty IS2. So if he gets the jump on you, drive away. It won't do any good to turn that slow-ass turret his way and then watch each other's shots criss-cross in midair. At best you're giving yourself a 50/50 chance. If he gets the first shot off, your chances are worse. The lesson? Put yourself in a good shooting position, no matter what you're driving.

 

[Teq]

You do understand that we have to simplify reality for a game, right? I mean, yes, if your tank got hit, you'd piss yourself. No question. But there has to be a line between reality and gameplay here. I would say, shots can either kill crewmembers or they can't. "Crew shock" just sounds like a gimmicky thing to me. It sounds like something that would be completely a matter of individual reaction to an individual situation. It would be very hard to summarize the varied reactions of individual soldiers in multiple situations in to some fair game rules. I don't think it can be done right, and I don't see how it would add to the gameplay.
P.S. : You have to have respect for what the enemy can do to you. Yes, a Panther can kill even the mighty IS2. So if he gets the jump on you, drive away. It won't do any good to turn that slow-ass turret his way and then watch each other's shots criss-cross in midair. At best you're giving yourself a 50/50 chance. If he gets the first shot off, your chances are worse. The lesson? Put yourself in a good shooting position, no matter what you're driving.

I hope I understood you guys correctly.
But I beleive that there is a physical reaction no one can "shake off".
As a 75mm shell comes flying 1500m pr second and hits 90mm armour at 90 deg, and do not penetrate,
the shock is planting it self into the tank in form of viberation, sound and internal flaking.

The vibration would make it hard to aim.
The sound would be quite intense (i dont know if the crew used earplugs)
But Internal flaking was the great danger.
Even if the shell did not penetrate, some armour types had poor quality and the armourplates broke up and sent steel and bolts flying into the crew compartment. This did not require penetration at all.

* I beleve that crewshock would be an effect of internal flaking and partial penetration only.
* If richochet, Only viberation/blur and high sound apears.

Also I beleive that MG fire on tank should distract the crew abit more.
I have noticed on alot of footage that the MG's where fired at the enemy tanks while reloading.
(havent checked up why yet)

 

[Sgt.Rock]

Well, Im not sure if your description is an addition to my idea or another form of it, but my original Idea was for penetrations only (since partial penetrations arent modeled and small caliber tank rounds hitting larger tanks, I was sure of how negleble the effects would be).

If your saying that you think crew shock should ONLY happen on ricochets and partial penetrations, then I disagree greatly. A lot happens when round penetrates a tank, and your definantly going to be either confused or in a state of shock, If it doesnt outright kill you.


I would believe that even a small caliber round entering a tank (Pz III 50mm) would make the crew **** their pants, and granted we dont need to model lumps on the pants of the crew models, the extra time it takes for the tank crew to regain their cool or coordination would be welcome addition.

 

[Teq]

Well, Im not sure if your description is an addition to my idea or another form of it, but my original Idea was for penetrations only (since partial penetrations arent modeled and small caliber tank rounds hitting larger tanks, I was sure of how negleble the effects would be).

If your saying that you think crew shock should ONLY happen on ricochets and partial penetrations, then I disagree greatly. A lot happens when round penetrates a tank, and your definantly going to be either confused or in a state of shock, If it doesnt outright kill you.


I would believe that even a small caliber round entering a tank (Pz III 50mm) would make the crew **** their pants, and granted we dont need to model lumps on the pants of the crew models, the extra time it takes for the tank crew to regain their cool or coordination would be welcome addition.

I meant if the bolts are flaking around in the crew compartment theye will shock.. but not shock on recochet.
Penetration you'll shock OFFCOURSE...
That shell bouncing around in the tank.... Of **** i would get outta there fast.. or atleast if I was a driver, backed the hell away

 

[Sgt.Rock]

I meant if the bolts are flaking around in the crew compartment theye will shock.. but not shock on recochet.
Penetration you'll shock OFFCOURSE...
That shell bouncing around in the tank.... Of **** i would get outta there fast.. or atleast if I was a driver, backed the hell away

Just making sure

I like the idea of partial penetrations and internal flaking (combat mission models it), I was just stating that RO currently doesnt have those two factors modelled.

 

[Teq]

Just making sure

I like the idea of partial penetrations and internal flaking (combat mission models it), I was just stating that RO currently doesnt have those two factors modelled.

When RO meets Combatmission ... well, I will smile
My two favorites strongest features becomming one damn realistic experience.