Arty vs armour in RO

[Oddball_E8]

during WWII the russians threw every kind of arty they had on heavy tanks because they found out that it could damage the optics, tracks and radio on them... thereby rendering them inoperable or at least crippled...
then again, heavier arty was often used to quite litteraly destroy tanks.

the reason it isnt considered the ultimate AT-weapon is because it takes time to organize (especially in WWII russia)... and you have to use it in ambush since you have to herd the enemy tanks to the area you have chosen for the artillery... never was the russian (or even the american) artillery so flexible that it could used "on the fly" so to speak... but indeed, most artillery could kill most tanks... hell, even 80mm mortars could destroy panthers, since the top armor isnt very thick... but direct hits are rare. 100mm+ tho, only requires a close hit to disable/destroy a tank.
look here for nice little examples of artillery kills http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=204&Itemid=105〈=en

 

[Pongo]

So by using your rationale you would rather a realistic barrage covering at least half of the map, just to be realistic.
It's a game dude the artillery is fine as is. I know what your saying mate i just dont see how you could implement it apart from making tanks invulnerable to artillery.That would open up a whole new can of worms would it not?

No, my rational is that arty would strip the infantry away from its armour. Harrass the armour, suppress the armour. That is the only thing it aught to accomplish vs heavy armour. In RO it is the perfect anti tank weapon. It wasnt an effective anti tank weapon at all.

 

[Pongo]

Ehm, wouldn't an artillery barrage really **** up a tank? You're pretending as if the tank would ride out of it without a scratch.

without a scratch or tim on a stick. What do we want. Without a scratch is far closer to reality then tim on a stick. There is the potential for a tank to be seriosly hurt by heavy artillery. What chance though? RO thinks a 15 second barrage has a nearly 100 % chance of damaging and a 50% chance of killing a heavy tank. That is nonsence. It is down in the two percent range somewhere.
A 2 minute barrage..sure lots higher chance.

 

[Pongo]

during WWII the russians threw every kind of arty they had on heavy tanks because they found out that it could damage the optics, tracks and radio on them... thereby rendering them inoperable or at least crippled...
then again, heavier arty was often used to quite litteraly destroy tanks.

http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=204&Itemid=105&lang=en

I think artillery in those pictures means anti tank artillery. Most of them have obviosly been killed by direct fire weapons yet the caption says "ambushed by artillery". The soviets have even circled the kill holes in white. They were not killed by indirect fire.
Anti Tank guns of 76mm and over were considered field artillery by the russians I believe. If you are basing your opinion of the effectiveness of arty on tanks on those pictures you might want to study them a bit closer.
I accept the abilty of heavy arty to do all you described to tanks. But at what chance with a 15 second barrage?

 

[Druidor]

I think that the Devs have struck a balance between realism & playability, yes the Artilery is a bit powerfull in comparison to real life but when you are playing the game as a mere foot soldier you should have some means to slow/stop the advance of tanks..

The Allied PT couldnt shoot its way out of a wet paper bag imo & is totaly useless against the Axis tanks & its reloading takes forever too.

The Axis AT weapon is more effective but there are limitaitons.

When you have a large number of tanks attacking the only recourse is artillery & in my opinion it should be sufficient to destroy & incapacitate tanks. If artillery can be used in real circumstances to destroy concrete bunkers & iron bridges then a tank should also be suceptable to these large chunks of metal falling from the sky.

Dont forget teh round has the momentium form being fired high into the air & gravity helping accelerate it so its impact will be greater than that of an object fired one a standard arc say from a tank.

 

[Mikser]

It may be worthwhile to peruse this article regarding the effectiveness of field artillery versus armoured vehicles. (Field Artillery Journal, November-December 2002 edition)
http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/2002/NOV_DEC_2002/NOV_DEC_2002_PAGES_8_11.pdf

Of particular interest is the figure 5 presented; the M48's suspension was severely damaged despite the HE shell's point of impact being 30 meters away.

It is obvious, then, that direct hits with heavy field artillery can utterly destroy WW2-era tanks, and near misses can achieve a mobility kill or a firepower kill.

Since the two most prominent tank maps - Arad and Ogledow - involve forces of divisional size and higher (according to the in-game briefings), it is only natural to see large-caliber artillery subordinated to support the battlegroups.

So the issue is not the power of field artillery; artillery can damage and destroy tanks. What is an issue is the unrealistic response time (an unplanned fire in the Soviet and German systems might take at least 10-15 minutes before the first rounds arrive) and unrealistic first-round accuracy(the rounds always land where the player points the binoculars).

 

[akd]

An ideal solution would be for the commander to have the ability to pre-plan a few field artillery strikes. Selecting these preplanned locations for support in-game would bring about a fairly quick response from medium caliber artillery (the maps are too small and the forces to close together for the really heavy stuff) that would strike with good accuracy as range, etc. would have been already calibrated.

Then, the commander should have access to on-call support from medium mortars. These would work much as arty does now, but with at least 1 or 2 spotting rounds with appropiate delays preceding the full fire mission. They should have a chance of destroying a tank with a direct hit and disabling it with a very near miss. Smoke rounds should also be available as a support option, providing a more realistic counter against tanks.

Finally, players should ultimately have access to light mortars on the map itself, being able to either fire line-of-sight, or on locations selected by the commander. There should be some restriction player-controlled mortars firing beyond their line-of-sight, as people will memorize locations and spam them.

 

[vonWulf]

I think its also important to remember the effect on the crew... a 150mm shell (for example) going off near a tank is going to seriously f$%k up the occupants (not to mention the tank), possibly rendering them combat ineffective and therefore (in the games eyes) killed. The game just blows up the tank for simplicity's sake

 

[DudeWheresMyTank]

i'd love to see arty destroy tank tracks, damage engines, crack optics, etc and render the tank inoperable

 

[Gunwing]

i'd love to see arty destroy tank tracks, damage engines, crack optics, etc and render the tank inoperable

You guys need to take a big long break from RO.


MY thoughts on the subject are:

Look at the pictures posted! Thats what happens to tanks if they get hit with arty they go BOOM! To say this is untrue is like saying the whole war never happened! Stop whining about your tanks all getting the **** kicked out of them by well placed arty from the enemy NCO. He is doing his job and let me tell you somthing about RO: Its' a game! GET OVER IT!

 

[Heinz]

CMBB/CMAK handles arrt pretty well. perhaps that kind of system could be implemented.

 

[-=BIGHARRY=-]

You guys need to take a big long break from RO.


MY thoughts on the subject are:

Look at the pictures posted! Thats what happens to tanks if they get hit with arty they go BOOM! To say this is untrue is like saying the whole war never happened! Stop whining about your tanks all getting the **** kicked out of them by well placed arty from the enemy NCO. He is doing his job and let me tell you somthing about RO: Its' a game! GET OVER IT!

Here here !

 

[Jack]

I don't think the power of the arty is necessarily the issue. Obviously a round hitting the top plate will kill the tank.





For me, the accuracy of the arty is what is fake and makes it into the super AT weapon that it is.


I keep saying this: no way WWII arty was as accurate as in RO! You point your binocs at a target, adn the arty falls EXACTLY where you aimed, making it ridiculously easy to take out point targets like individual tanks.


In real life, you would have to give coordinates, then spotting rounds would come down, then you would "walk" the rounds onto the tank. By that time, the tank could move out of teh zone. This is how it is in Combat Mission.

In RO however, you get first round hits, with no time for the tank to move away. No correction of fire is necessary.


This could all be fixed if the devs used a grid map with TRPs instead of a laser designator (i.e. binocs) to call in arty.

 

[Russkie11]

Of course a direct hit would destroy a tank in most cases, but the problem for me is that the artillery does huge damage by simply hitting next to the tank. Maybe it would cause the a track to fall off, the optics to break or a slight concussion and ringing ears for the crew, but I doubt it would just blow the whole vehicle up.

Ooh the ringin sounds cool and make the ping and zip noises so when the arty shrap bounces off the tank.

 

[Pongo]

You guys need to take a big long break from RO.


MY thoughts on the subject are:

Look at the pictures posted! Thats what happens to tanks if they get hit with arty they go BOOM! To say this is untrue is like saying the whole war never happened! Stop whining about your tanks all getting the **** kicked out of them by well placed arty from the enemy NCO. He is doing his job and let me tell you somthing about RO: Its' a game! GET OVER IT!

The thread is optional if you dont care or know about the subject.
But it is untrue, I could post a picture of any german tank left after 3 weeks in normandy and say. Here is a picture of a tank that survived intensive indirect fire barrages on many occasions. The two exceptions dont make the case the 100s of other make the case.
The panther on its back is not even known to have been killed by arty in any form, it just seems likely that either a bomb or a major calibre naval shell would cause such an effect.

Even as as surrogate for all the ways that tanks can be killed that is not a shachel charge, Panzerfaust or a tank then the arty mechanism in the game is far to powerful.

If its just play ballance then its a shame in what otherwise seems to be a well ballenced historical simulation.

 

[Private Partz]

I never said it was unstoppable, I said it was way too powerful and flexible.
Only battalion mortars would get close to the level of flexibilty that we see used in RO and it would not hit nearly so hard. The typical response to even heavy field arty from a heavy tank would be to batten down and ignore it. They surey would not run away from it. In this game you must flee and even then it is much too late cause the first rounds are wicked accurate.
There is nothing remotly WW2ish about that level of capability to arty.

A tank IS designed for mobility and MUST move constantly to perform it's function and to survive....

A stationary tank is a DEAD tank!....whether it be fron arty, air strikes or other anti tank weapons...

Tank warfare is mobile by nature...if your sitting still for more than 30 seconds in game you WILL die one way or another!...it's simple...

When you hear those arty guns firing off in the distance in game, before you hear the shells screaming in, I suggest you move to another position ASAP as tanks do in real life, they always have multiple prepared defensive positions that they can move to if in a defensive role and if on the offensive you are on the move and fairly safe from arty anyway....

 

[Pongo]

It may be worthwhile to peruse this article regarding the effectiveness of field artillery versus armoured vehicles. (Field Artillery Journal, November-December 2002 edition)
http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/2002/NOV_DEC_2002/NOV_DEC_2002_PAGES_8_11.pdf

Of particular interest is the figure 5 presented; the M48's suspension was severely damaged despite the HE shell's point of impact being 30 meters away.

It is obvious, then, that direct hits with heavy field artillery can utterly destroy WW2-era tanks, and near misses can achieve a mobility kill or a firepower kill.

Since the two most prominent tank maps - Arad and Ogledow - involve forces of divisional size and higher (according to the in-game briefings), it is only natural to see large-caliber artillery subordinated to support the battlegroups.

So the issue is not the power of field artillery; artillery can damage and destroy tanks. What is an issue is the unrealistic response time (an unplanned fire in the Soviet and German systems might take at least 10-15 minutes before the first rounds arrive) and unrealistic first-round accuracy(the rounds always land where the player points the binoculars).

Figure 4 and 5 are the same tank, It is a T72 and the caption says "within 30 meters". By picture 4 I would say within 3 meters, which is of course within 30 meters. The Bradley was hurt by an Air Burst, the M577 was hurty by shrapnel but of course its aluminum armour.
An article written by an Arty guy trying to justify his branches budget with a test designed to show the power of his equipment.
Such a test must raise eyebrows in military forces arround the world that routinely take tanks into danger close range for live fire.

Wonder why this was ever developed?

 

[Theodrake]

I disagree, i think the artillery is fine as is. What are you basing your opinions on?

Reality. One art falls in a parabolic trajectory and doesn't come straight down on a tank. It can still be deflected. They are HE rounds not AP (unless a naval gun). They are designed to explode on contact, not penetrate and then explode.

 

[Pongo]

There is no WW2 basis for the artillery system as implemented in RO.
We have a game that revels in the complexity of loading and aiming a bolt action rifle or a throwing a hand grenade, but grossly exagerates the ease of calling in artillery and the leathality of the artillery when it is called.

If tanks had to move from their position every time they thought that the enemy had fired a round of indirect artillery imagine what the impact of that would be.

Yes if you established that an enemy was zeroing a spotting round on your location you might well reposition to avoid the bombardment, pretty easy to chase the supporting tanks off of a defensive postiion that way though.

More realistically, Arty strips the infantry from the armour in an attack.

I think its telling that people are showing pictures of the random effect of sustained navel gunfire to support the arty model in RO.

By that standard every fire mission should make the map look like the surface of Okinawa as soon as its called in.

 

[DudeWheresMyTank]

You guys need to take a big long break from RO.


MY thoughts on the subject are:

Look at the pictures posted! Thats what happens to tanks if they get hit with arty they go BOOM! To say this is untrue is like saying the whole war never happened! Stop whining about your tanks all getting the **** kicked out of them by well placed arty from the enemy NCO. He is doing his job and let me tell you somthing about RO: Its' a game! GET OVER IT!

wrong. those tanks at normandy were blown by naval artillery anywhere from 6 inches to 18 inches. normal field artillery was ~6 inches max and would not destory a tank if it did not hit directly. 18 inch guns fire shells that are taller than the men that fired it and weighs more than a small car!

A tank IS designed for mobility and MUST move constantly to perform it's function and to survive....

A stationary tank is a DEAD tank!....whether it be fron arty, air strikes or other anti tank weapons...

Tank warfare is mobile by nature...if your sitting still for more than 30 seconds in game you WILL die one way or another!...it's simple...

When you hear those arty guns firing off in the distance in game, before you hear the shells screaming in, I suggest you move to another position ASAP as tanks do in real life, they always have multiple prepared defensive positions that they can move to if in a defensive role and if on the offensive you are on the move and fairly safe from arty anyway....

wrong. a favorite german tactic is to draw enemy tanks into kill zones where their own tanks sat stationary in camoflauged or fortified positions. tigers were infamous for this. they used this tactic to great effect and a sitting tank is by no means a dead tank especially in that period. in fact, due to allied air superiority on the western front, all german fighting vehicles were stationary in the day and only moved during the cover of darkness