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SMG at a Disadvantage

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#41
There's one way to find out - I'm gonna fire them an email about it and see if they are going to answer. :)

Yep, those shots would easily have hit a man-sized target, at least 75% or more of them. This is at about 50 or slightly more meters. At 100 meters I'm not sure anymore.

Here's further proof:
staulut.jpg

This is from the test firing of the Suomi-KP M/31, at 100 meters, supported. Single shots on the left - that's seven shots with a spread of only 30mm. In the appropriate terms, that's nearly 1 MOA accuracy!

On the right, it's the Suomi-KP M/31, at 100 meters, supported, fired in 5+ round shot bursts. 50 shots were fired, and 43-44 instantly lethal shots can be counted on the target. 6 or so bullets missed - that doesn't necessarily mean they all would have missed a person, as this is only the upper torso. Fair assumption is that 3-4 bullets would have missed a man-sized target.

The Suomi-KP M/31 is very similar to the PPSh and the other Russian SMG's. It is better (a tad more accurate), but comparable.

Picture is taken from this site: http://guns.connect.fi/gow/suomikp1.html
(its entirely in Finnish)

So there you have it again - these weapons were highly accurate and easy to handle. Yes, up to 200 meters.

I'm not saying they should be accurate up to 200m in RO (gameplay reasons) but if I'm aiming at someone at 50 meters and I know my aim is perfectly set, I expect the guy to die from a short burst. This usually doesn't happen in RO, even in practice mode (=no latency).
 
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#44
Tsoman said:
It seems so unrealistic that the SMGs climb while shooting. Would they just shake and push back?

Also, since we push a button to walk and reload, can't the player automatically control barrel climb?
Click to expand...

That would remove quite a bit of the challenge.
If you can use them practice till you can, its not that hard really. Only took me a day or so, I was tired of being killed by them.

I would almost say SMG's are overpowered since rifle are defenceless against you at close range (but since thats accurate I'm fine with it). The bayo takes to long, hipshooting is very difficult as rifleman and as an SMG'er you should have better reactions than they do anyway.
 
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#45
Tak said:
Try resting the gun too. The things are small-area machine guns if you get into a nice spot with a sandback/rubble in front of you :)
Click to expand...

i know all the ways to get rid of the recoil now, but i think its stupid that the recoil is so high--forcing you to lay down or rest it against something...its meant for close combat and you cant do anything until you lay down or crouch
 
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#46
Vulture said:
That would remove quite a bit of the challenge.
If you can use them practice till you can, its not that hard really. Only took me a day or so, I was tired of being killed by them.

I would almost say SMG's are overpowered since rifle are defenceless against you at close range (but since thats accurate I'm fine with it). The bayo takes to long, hipshooting is very difficult as rifleman and as an SMG'er you should have better reactions than they do anyway.
Click to expand...




Maybe it would take away some of the unrealistic challenge of using the SMG;s, but would add some challenge in fighting against them.

I have practiced quite a bit with them. When I fire the PPSH, I have to practically pull my mouse off the mousepad in order to fight the barrel climb. I'm not saying the gun should be more accurate or easier, just that the barrel shouldn't climb so much; the gun should push and shake instead.

I saw a video of a grandma firing an mp40 and the recoil is easier for her than it is for RO

It's about as bad as firing an undeployed machine gun in DoD.
 
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#47
Tsoman said:
Maybe it would take away some of the unrealistic challenge of using the SMG;s, but would add some challenge in fighting against them.

I have practiced quite a bit with them. When I fire the PPSH, I have to practically pull my mouse off the mousepad in order to fight the barrel climb. I'm not saying the gun should be more accurate or easier, just that the barrel shouldn't climb so much; the gun should push and shake instead.

I saw a video of a grandma firing an mp40 and the recoil is easier for her than it is for RO

It's about as bad as firing an undeployed machine gun in DoD.
Click to expand...
Hahahaha that video was awesome. A grandma shoots better than a RO:OST soldier, seriously.
 
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#49
I think what we're running into here is the issue of verisimilitude. Whether something IS realistic and whether something FEELS realistic are two different things. RO may be using real-life physics values (I don't know how recoil and barrel climb are handled in the game), but it doesn't FEEL realistic to us because in real life a hell of a lot more would be going on with the shooter's body than what we see in the game.

Because in the game (and this is a problem in a lot of areas -- melee combat, hipshots, iron sights with SMGs) your arms are not connected to your physical body, you can't make the kind of on-the-fly adjustments to:

- how you hold the weapon
- which muscles you are flexing at a given moment
- how you're moving while shooting
- what your specific facing is -- IE: are you angled away from the shot as if you're holding a rifle sideways at the range, are you angling INTO the shot, etc. Pistol usage in game is a particularly noticeable example of this because of the multitude of pistol stances and the fact that, essentially, your pistol just sort of moves to the center of the screen in some weird stance.

You also can't sense where the barrel is because you're not THERE. Or at least, you can't sense where the barrel is and is pointed as you would IF you were there.

The end result of this is that the game feels and operates in somewhat unrealistic ways. The raw numbers of the weapon's performance may be absolutely spot-on (IE: all the mathematics of it are accurate -- a man exerting X amount of downward pressure on the gun which weighs Y amount and is firing a round that generates Z amount of upward force will find his barrel placed exactly HERE). But, because you're not doing stuff on the fly (IE: correcting your aim as you shoot in a natural-feeling way because you're physically holding the weapon), the game FEELS unrealistic.


To this, all I can say is that I think the devs have made a choice here. They have a few options available to them.

1.) Make every avatar automatically correct recoil, which in turn removes player interaction from the control of the avatar.

2.) Make recoil basically nonexistent or a purely cosmetic feature, in which case we end up playing BF1942 with conefire or something comparable. Again, this removes the player's interaction with the interface itself.

3.) Accept that video games cannot accurately replicate the nuances of human physical responses when using objects -- even "point and click" type objects like firearms -- and leave it up to the player to develop compensating mechanisms (IE: slightly pull the mouse down as you fire the PPSh).

They seem to have chosen #3. Now, while the mechanical numbers can be tweaked here and there, you've got to accept that NO video game EVER will give you the experience you're looking for, at least not until they give you a gun that recoils the exact same way as a firearm loaded with live ammunition.

The major UPSIDE to this is that, once you get the hang of the weapon, you've got entirely legitimate bragging rights. Not that you could fire a real-life version with the same accuracy, but that you've taught yourself the skill of how to fire it in the game. In todays FPS landscape, that's a pretty nice thing (considering how freakin' random and spammy a lot of games are and how little skill they require to learn to play).
 
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#50
If you've never fired one IRL, I can see how this would confound most people. I had the privelege of firing off a few mags on an old 'grease gun once. There was NOTHING, I could do to prevent that baby from climbing like a madman. Spray'n'pray is what they were made for, and the game represents it well. But like Tak says, go prone to maximize your effort.
 
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#51
Cutter said:
If you've never fired one IRL, I can see how this would confound most people. I had the privelege of firing off a few mags on an old 'grease gun once. There was NOTHING, I could do to prevent that baby from climbing like a madman. Spray'n'pray is what they were made for, and the game represents it well. But like Tak says, go prone to maximize your effort.
Click to expand...
Go watch some of the videos of trained men/hobbyists firing the ww2 smgs.

People unload entire drums of the PPSh while standing, without having the gun kick up. That's just how it is.


In combat it would be very different but the current recoil in RO is completely unrealistic and absolutely wrong considering this is RO:OST and not Counter-Strike, you can't fake recoil, this is supposed to be realistic.
 
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#54
Comrade Wasabi said:
Shooting a tanker's old Grease Gun isn't really comparable TBH :)
Click to expand...


To the PPSh and the MP40, not really. BUT, I still imagine it was damned fun, and I'm right jealous :p



You have to do what your avatar doesn't. you have to control that recoil, by using your mouse. If you have to pull the mouse too far, up the sensitivity. If your avatar takes care of the recoil for you, then the game has taken one step closer to the road of arcady. (note: I didn't say was arcady, just one step closer. Put the flamethrowers up :p)


My proof: I went to a friend's house today to mess around and (mainly) show him RO. Set up steam and fired up and all that. Once he got a few bot kills in I sent him online. He plays with a super-sensitive Razor mouse. He was making those damned 100 yard SMG kills with ease, because he could easily control the recoil with slight movements. So, the SMGs are usable, and easily, you just have to adjust for the recoil.
 
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#55
Centar said:
There's one way to find out - I'm gonna fire them an email about it and see if they are going to answer. :)

Yep, those shots would easily have hit a man-sized target, at least 75% or more of them. This is at about 50 or slightly more meters. At 100 meters I'm not sure anymore.

Here's further proof:
staulut.jpg

This is from the test firing of the Suomi-KP M/31, at 100 meters, supported. Single shots on the left - that's seven shots with a spread of only 30mm. In the appropriate terms, that's nearly 1 MOA accuracy!

On the right, it's the Suomi-KP M/31, at 100 meters, supported, fired in 5+ round shot bursts. 50 shots were fired, and 43-44 instantly lethal shots can be counted on the target. 6 or so bullets missed - that doesn't necessarily mean they all would have missed a person, as this is only the upper torso. Fair assumption is that 3-4 bullets would have missed a man-sized target.

The Suomi-KP M/31 is very similar to the PPSh and the other Russian SMG's. It is better (a tad more accurate), but comparable.

Picture is taken from this site: http://guns.connect.fi/gow/suomikp1.html
(its entirely in Finnish)

So there you have it again - these weapons were highly accurate and easy to handle. Yes, up to 200 meters.

I'm not saying they should be accurate up to 200m in RO (gameplay reasons) but if I'm aiming at someone at 50 meters and I know my aim is perfectly set, I expect the guy to die from a short burst. This usually doesn't happen in RO, even in practice mode (=no latency).
Click to expand...


You said "supported." I am assuming then you don't mean offhand. Firing the Suomi offhand in bursts would yield different results I would imagine versus using a rest.
 
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#56
Grease Gun isn't exactly comparable to the submachineguns in game, being quite small in size and chambered in .45.

Now, I've played RO:Ost since the release, so I'm not exactly a newbie with submachineguns. As a matter of fact, I can use them quite effectively. However, I still find the recoil way excessive. Saying that one should control the recoil by pulling the mouse down like mad and crouching, is like selling a car that steers to the right by default and telling the buyer to keep steering to left while driving to compensate. Why does this not apply with the rest of the weapons ingame?

If you can honestly tell me, that you can control your avatars recoil in game with the PPSh as easy as in real life, make a video and upload it, preferably with in combat scenes.
 
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#57
Supported means that they supported the weapon on something to enhance stability. Eg on a box, or on the ground if prone.

Why don't some of you pro-recoil guys pack a proper argument like I did, because right now you just haven't got one? As I've pointed out and proven several times now, the recoil is heavily exaggerated as is the inaccuracy of these weapons.

Unless you're trying the "if I don't reply to this guy's arguments, maybe that'll render them invalid, because I know he's right but don't like it" kinda approach...
 
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#58
Lol, guess what: People sleep and do other stuff ;).

Seriously i do not see alot of proper arguments. The videos show people shooting, i do not see the target. Seeing a gun from the side does not show how it looks from the shooters perpektive. Even when it looks stable, you can't be sure to hit anything, you say you are sure, i am not. (Trust me, i have shot SMGs). The slightest movement of the gun makes a huge difference in 50 or whatever meters.

The picture shows nice groups on a test facility supported etc. etc. The regular shooter will never be able to achive groups like that. Not everybody is an expert shooter and can test his gun on a perfect prepaired test facility.

I have absolutely no problem to kill an enemy with a short burst ingame. It is not working all the time, but on the other hand, i am the worst shot around.

My suggestion: Learn to handle the recoil and you will see how easy it is.
No need to make the weapons laserlike weapons without recoil, to many games have that.

There are reasons why some players are better than others.

One of them is that they learned to use their weapons properly.
 
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#60
OK I recorded a short demo of the standing recoil with the ppsh41. Watch it once normally, then watch it again in 3rd person view (F6 I think is the default). Looks a lot like the guy firing a real papasha in those videos :). The mp40 is much easier to control though.

Basically, if you want accurate short bursts, you must be crouched/proned or supported. If there is something wrong with the SMGs, it's that accurate bursts don't seem to down your target, even below 50m. Sometimes I feel like I'm firing blanks.

http://www.esnips.com/web/thedruidsotherstuff

Place the file in your red orchestra/demos folder (create the demos folder if it doesn't already exist). Start the game, click on Help & Game Management, then Demo Management, and play the demo (which is capped at 30fps for some reason).

EDIT: the service is being upgraded so you can't DL it atm.
 
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