Squad leaders should be awarded for not dying and for people spawn near you if you near capzone.
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Teamwork: It's fun, and stuff. How could it be promoted?
- Thread starter Scarf Ace
- Start date
The Compass was completely useless (for me) in RO1 and not only did I never use it, I never saw a need for it.
I get the explanation from some saying it helped players tell others where an enemy was, by saying the target was north-east or south-south-west, etc..... but unless everybody was standing right beside you, nobody would know where exactly you were referencing..... it might be north-east to you, but where I'm located, the target could be south-west, or directly east to me.... I'd look north-east and see nothing and then get shot by the guy who was actually east of me.
I probably use the minimap on screen about as much as I used the compass in RO1, but perhaps slightly more since it actually shows me where objectives are from where I'm standing.
Besides, if I wanted to know where I was in RO1, the Compass told me nothing that opening up the map didn't.
But..... I'm all for the compass being an option to click on to toggle between minimap, compass or nothing at all, for those who wish to use the compass. Just because I think it's useless and I would never use it, that doesn't mean other players wouldn't use it and find it valuable.
The problem with that is if you're on a realism server & not familiar with the map layout.... and lost.... you'll never find your squad leader except by chance and remain lost until you stumble upon where you're supposed to be or killed by the enemy.
Often enough, I'll be following my team, then we'd start getting shot at, I'd focus on taking out the threat for my team, only to find that my team took off without me. With no minimap, map or tactical view and even with a compass, if I was a new player and not familiar with the maps, I'd spend most of the time running around lost and being completely useless to my team more so.
Indeed... players will still play the way they feel like playing.
It's been like this since the mod days for RO.... I've personally noticed over the years that if your team has no squad leader/commander and no other player is communicating to the rest of the team what's going on, everybody does their own thing, teamwork slacks, and it's easy to lose the round in that environment.
A few good examples would be when I played Karlovka with a full server. The first few objectives are very easy for the Russians to Defend and Horridly Difficult to take for the Germans without any decent teamwork. The Germans can easily be chewed up and held back from the bridges with no team work.... and on the flip side, if the Germans were working together but the Russians weren't, it was very easy to slip through Bridge 2 and flank Bridge 1 and cap the house.... and then the Germans can easily roll over the rest of the map within minutes.
I'd join the Germans, see the marksman, riflemen & MG's camp the central hill taking pot shots at the russians on the other side of the river, Engineers would continually rush to the road blocks and be taken out easily by the Russians, the Panzer crew would just stay back and also take pot shots.... and nothing would be accomplished except for the timer ticking down to the point the Russians win.
Then I'd take the commander/SL class, mark arty on the house and the hill beside it, I'd inform my team where it was dropping and when.... I'd tell my team where the enemy was, where their weak spots were, where they're concentrating..... I'd see an MG and two Riflemen covering Bridge 2, I'd inform my team of this, tell the Panzer crew to head to Bridge 2 and take those Russians out and for the Engineers to follow up behind the Panzer, while I and a few others on our team put pressure on Bridge 1 and the House.
If the Russians weren't working together, those three guys on the hill by B2 would get mowed down by the Panzer, wouldn't tell their team that B2 is defenseless.... and the Engineers quickly cleared the road blocks on B2 and could easily flank B1 and the House with the Panzer crew and possibly a couple of HT's.
Then myself and the rest of the team would rush B1 and clear the Road Blocks there while the Russians are running around dealing with a couple of HT's, a Panzer and other German troops attacking them from the rear and then boom.... B1 is capped and the rest of the objectives are almost a breeze.
The thing is.... if other players are not informed of what's going on and where it's going on in the map, those players will either do their own thing or stay way back and camp until they see an opening to advance, which won't happen without the rest of your team working together. If your team is told that a certain area is completely free of enemies, they'll take that info and run through that window on the map.... if they don't know what's going on and don't know it's clear, by the time they do try and run through that cleared area, it could already have enemies covering it again and get mowed down.... thus making them camp even more.
The more information you have on what's going on around you, the more confident you become with moving around and taking down targets.
I almost always take the Commander role when free.... I don't normally bark out orders or trash my team.... I'll issue out an automated Order to Attack or Defend and then the rest of the time between killing enemies and taking objectives, I'm spending a lot of my time informing my team on what's going on and where. Even if they don't follow orders and the rest of the team is just doing their own thing, at least they know where things are happening on the map and can at least take some enemies down for the rest of us who are trying.
Even when I'm not leading the team and just a riflemen or some other class, I will still dish out information for my team.
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Anyone ever be in a server and people tell the guys with mics to stop talking or get a private chat. That annoys the hell out of me. Yeah sometimes the conversation may devolve a bit but there playing the game to the fullest trying to benefit the team, guess cod kids get distracted by the noise trying to rack up their killstreaks...
But in all seriousness, these are some pretty good ideas.
But in all seriousness, these are some pretty good ideas.
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Oh I agree 100%.... SL's and Commanders just going at it alone with nobody following them or doing their jobs will not get them very far and if everybody kept everybody informed on what was going on and where, then you'd have a very powerful team with a huge advantage.
But even with everybody on your team working together, yet the leaders weren't doing their jobs properly, their impact on the team is more noticed.... in my observations anyways.
The more those on your team communicate, work together and use their classes as they should, the better results you get.
Hmmmm.... as a SL/Commander most times, and as someone who's usually leading the charge into the thick of things with the hopes my team is following behind, handing me a bolt rifle would only make my job more difficult and probably entice me to stay back from the fighting and let everybody else do the hard work..... and when other players see their leaders giving them orders to attack, but don't follow and just stay behind, chances are, fewer team members will follow those orders.
My guess anyways.
But SL's should get assist points for marking arty for the Commander.
Agreed.... I wasn't attacking Marksmen or others who stay behind. I was saying that so long as they are taking out enemies I'm happy.... but if they're staying all the way back at spawn to do this, that's a bit iffy, since they could at least gradually move up closer as objectives are captured.
MG's and Marksmen are needed for suppression and to help provide cover for their advancing team.... I don't care if Marksmen, MG's or the odd Rifleman stay back from the capping, so long as they are taking out enemies in the process so I and the rest of the team have less to deal with in the objective..... and I mind even less if they do this if they rush to the cap when requested and are needed.
When I pick Marksman or MG classes, I usually will remain a little ways back from the main fighting to provide cover, but I always try to at least remain in the previous cap zone so I'm at least one body in the zone to defend, while helping my team advance to the next. Not only does this allow me to gain more points for being in an objective when I kill an enemy and they're in the other cap zone.... I can also stay back to help inform the team if enemies start to rush the cap zone I'm in so they can rush back quicker, if needed.
When they take the next cap, I move up again... it's not desertion, it's providing support and cover for my team.... and if they need an extra body for the next cap zone, I'm not far away to rush forward.
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Excellent post my good sir! Well written, intelligent, and full of common sense. I like it.
I agree 110% on each and every point you make. The 3D voip was a major point of discussion pre-release, and I still don't see any real rationale against a 3-channel system, to quote your suggestion. Ramm seemed particularly set against it, and I honestly don't know why.
I have written essays on these forums on most of your other points, and you sum up my opinions so well that I don't feel the need to repeat myself or rehash them.
Keep up the good posting. Maybe more people will start to see the light ...
I agree 110% on each and every point you make. The 3D voip was a major point of discussion pre-release, and I still don't see any real rationale against a 3-channel system, to quote your suggestion. Ramm seemed particularly set against it, and I honestly don't know why.
I have written essays on these forums on most of your other points, and you sum up my opinions so well that I don't feel the need to repeat myself or rehash them.
Keep up the good posting. Maybe more people will start to see the light ...
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Ofcourse you get good teamwork by microphones. But in ROost it
was very often that the talk didn`t go over the playing. There
was to much talking so you couldn`t hear an enemy coming.
But we have also the textchat. In ROost it was good to read and
it was in 2 colours. Players did read what you wrote.
I am now coming to the conclusion that nobody reads the text of
the team text.
So, TWI must give us the old coloured text back.
was very often that the talk didn`t go over the playing. There
was to much talking so you couldn`t hear an enemy coming.
But we have also the textchat. In ROost it was good to read and
it was in 2 colours. Players did read what you wrote.
I am now coming to the conclusion that nobody reads the text of
the team text.
So, TWI must give us the old coloured text back.
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In reply to my thought on maps
This was my point, really. Getting separated from your squad should make you feel like that! Soldiers operate(d) in squads partly so that they knew what to do and what was going on. In order to force players to play that way you have to make lone-wolfing so untenable that they won't do it.
I agree though, it wouldn't be much fun. I guess this is the "inaccessibility" that others are pushing as a route to tactical play.
On a different tack - how about more of an incentive to actually win? Unless you're in a clan of some sort, your team is a bunch of strangers which changes each map. Personally I feel no loyalty to that team, so it is easy to get more interested in getting as many kills as possible (this is a first person shooter after all) than winning a round.
If there was something to drive you on to win, then maybe capping, resupplying, protecting armour/infantry, following orders, etc would feature higher on players' list of priorities.
Problem is, I don't know what that incentive should be! I'm really against perks and unlocks, as I don't think it helps the community grow to make the playing field less and less level for newcomers.
This was my point, really. Getting separated from your squad should make you feel like that! Soldiers operate(d) in squads partly so that they knew what to do and what was going on. In order to force players to play that way you have to make lone-wolfing so untenable that they won't do it.
I agree though, it wouldn't be much fun. I guess this is the "inaccessibility" that others are pushing as a route to tactical play.
On a different tack - how about more of an incentive to actually win? Unless you're in a clan of some sort, your team is a bunch of strangers which changes each map. Personally I feel no loyalty to that team, so it is easy to get more interested in getting as many kills as possible (this is a first person shooter after all) than winning a round.
If there was something to drive you on to win, then maybe capping, resupplying, protecting armour/infantry, following orders, etc would feature higher on players' list of priorities.
Problem is, I don't know what that incentive should be! I'm really against perks and unlocks, as I don't think it helps the community grow to make the playing field less and less level for newcomers.
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Commander-squad leader chain is more important while defending to mark good spots fast and kill as many attackers as possible when the opportunity presents itself. On the offensive it is more important that people follow squad leaders who will give them some smoke cover while approaching the objectives.Cpt-Praxius said:
I see it a bit differently - squad leaders are both spawn points and artillery spotters for their commanders. They also make (re)capturing objectives a bit faster from what I know. It is imperative for the team that officers survive for as long as possible. To lead the attack and charge we have assault teams and common riflemen if needed, not officers. That is how I think.Cpt-Praxius said:
I am not saying that you did. It has been directed to people in general who seem to think that shooting enemy sharpshooters and not going directly into the capzone is not helping the team. I agree that people staying back in strange places for lone kill aren't helping, but killing enemy sharpshooters in the windows of the Apartments or on the Town Hall on Spartanovka is indirectly helping the team to move a bit more safely through the area.Cpt-Praxius said:
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the game offers a a public channel , a team channel and a squad channel...the only problem i see is unless you know who your squad mates are, you cant tell who is talking .....having the voice comms color coded or voice messages color coded would help out......
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I think one of the main reasons why a player who chooses leader role and not use them properly, is simply that they do not know how to do so. Command which squad/fire team to attack or defend what, really isn
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I agree.
Currently, only person's name is displayed on the left side of the screen.
Instead, it should be something like "Commander <nickname>" or "Rifleman <nickname> with team role in big letters or all caps, followed by player name with a smaller font. Each information coloured, for example: green, if its a member of your squad, red - if it's your squad leader, blue - if it's a member of other squad, gold - commander, white - speaking player is in the opposite team.
Also, perhaps you wouldn't agree, but at least some information on player's position should be available, like map coordinate he's in at the moment. But only for roles like commander and squad leaders of every squad in the team, plus coordinates of your squad members. Of course this wouldn't apply for members of the opposite team speaking on the public channel.
Examples:
COMMANDER, D5 Jdoe
Your squad leader (full role name to make the player to notice the text with an edge of his eye):
SQUAD LEADER, G2 Harvey
Squad member of your team:
RIFLEMAN, E2 Ivan100
Squad leader of a second team:
SL(2), A1 daBoss
When a member of a different squad is speaking (other that its squad leader), no coordinates are given:
RIFLEMAN(2) bolschoy
Or his squad leader's coordinates are passed:
RIFLEMAN(2), A1 bolschoy
ENEMY HansHans
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What used to be great (although not perfect) was in the RO:CA mod, you had text to speech active, so you didn't even have to read, you just had the text read out to you so you could keep your eyes on the game..... apparently there's still a way to get text to speech in Ostfront and possibly in RO2.
But yes.... with everybody talking all the time, and with the odd jerk coming on the mic blasting their crappy emo music for all to hear, you lose your ability to hear what's going on around you.
Cue the player mute.
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Well the one thing I wanted to address in the above is that while you noted SL's have additional capping power, you didn't mention anything about Commanders having additional capping power which can make or break an offensive or defensive situation. If the enemy's Commander is staying back, just standing by the radio, then they're only doing a part of their overall job..... and if your SL's are just staying back in hiding to be a spawn point & the Commander is doing the above, and not getting into the cap zones with the rest of their team, then they're at a disadvantage.
In every map so far, as a Commander, I have always headed off with the rest of my team so I know what the situation is that they are getting into. I have two smoke grenades which can greatly help my team and my SL's who only have one.... and if I'm by an ammo crate, there's 4 smoke grenades. I mark arty as soon as I can, and usually direct it one cap zone away so my team doesn't risk getting hit and also cuts off the enemy from the cap zone we're trying to take.... and if my SL's mark arty as well, then that's a bonus.
And since the maps so far have radios scattered all across the map, it's not hard for me to head off with the rest of my team to attack or defend, while still being able to get arty and recon flying about.
If I as the Commander/TL, just stayed back from the front to do recon, arty and force respawning, then I'm not helping my team enough, as I have an SMG or Semi-auto, 2 smoke grenades and additional capping power.
If every single player on my team, including myself are in a cap zone, and every person on the enemy team except the Commander got into the same cap zone, we'd win the cap, even if the enemy took out one of our guys, as my additional capping power compensates for that loss.
Often enough I'll run back to a radio and leave my team to advance on their own, but as soon as I'm done with the radio, I head back to help out my team.
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