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I don't like the current generation - Old Man rant

I thought I would find myself in agreement but I see a whole bunch of grumpy old men who gets it just almost right.

I said in the Jagged Alliance 2 thread that I think 1997-2002 was the latest golden era where game developers were allowed to take risks and explore entirely new kinds of games. 2003 onward has been EA/Ubisoft territory, ie publishers invest in safe ideas and tie up intelligent and talented developers in money grubbing projects like yet another Harry Potter game or yet another WWII shooter or strategy game. Many publishers also form their own development studios to produce their cowardly "safe investments". Up until 2003 it was pretty much the other way around, it was the developers that formed publishing houses, and since games were much cheaper to make back then they could get financing from other sources than media entertainment publishers. Remember Gathering of Developers (GoD Games)? They are the reason we got games like Max Payne, Mafia and Vietcong and many more classics from the early 00's.

I said I saw a lot of old man grumpiness that I don't entirely agree with in this thread. I'll try and adress as much of it as possible.

- Linear gameplay has ALWAYS been the norm. Few and rare gems are the GOOD free-form games. Recent games are not more linear than older games, but rather they are mostly the same as the golden oldies except with more visuals. "Press X to watch you avatar do awesome stuff" is an addition to the old formula, not a distillation of it. Take the latest CoD and strip out the single button interactions and what do you have? A late 90's shooter.

(quick note on OP's Mass Effect 2 example: That tiny cinematic is way more rewarding than the game's normal gunplay. If you haven't finished it, you are only missing out on hours upon hours of sitting perched behind cover waiting for your shields to come back online so you can kill one more enemy before they go down again)

- Co-op is this often spoken of feature that barely existed in any game in any meaningful way to warrant the hype. It is highly overrated, I lump it into the same territory with zombies, ie it is something people go "If we throw in Coop/zombies into the game, it automatically becomes awesome" about. Ever since 2006 every other game review has had the phrase "It is an excellent game, but it's a shame there is no cooperative gameplay mode" in it somewhere. What is this excellent precedent that proves that every game needs coop? From the top of my head the only coop I thought was implemented in a meaningful way was Gears of War.

- Content is certainly shallow in most games released these days. This is because AAA standard titles today are MUCH more expensive to develop than they were 10-15 years ago. We could accept hammy no-name acting and rough visuals with sound effects pulled straight from an audio library back in the late 90's, but now we want feature film production values and guess what, that's 100's of millions of dollars these days. Without it, games don't sell any longer. Case and point from my rough memory of a lecture given to us by a former DICE studio manager: Battlefield 1942 cost about 10 million dollars to make, Battlefield 2 has a classified budget but it was "many 100's of million dollars". Production cycles are as short as they always were for mainstream titles, ie 2-3 years, but the quality of content is ten-fold or even a hundred times more time intensive than they were 10 years ago.

- Consoles are not to blame for the decline of gaming. Well, not outright. It is everyone and everything's fault.

- - PC gamers are not big spenders. They get grumpy if they have to pay more than $10, whereas console gamers often feel like they have no choice but to pay $60 for a new game because pirating for consoles is more tedious and comes with more downsides where as PC pirating is completely safe and without sacrifice.

- - The late 90's saw the end of a 3D accelerator war, but after the dust settled hardware did not advance too fast nor too differently. Ever since however, hardware evolution has gotten incrementally faster and so PC gamers have wildly different computers. People with state-of-the-art consumer PCs are a minority, yet they are held up to be an example of what gaming would be like if it weren't for consoles. That is simply not true. Most PC gamers only upgrade every 3-5 years, so games have to be developed against console class hardware specs anyhow.

- - Publishers are looking for profit only. That means cutting costs and only investing in ideas that reliably sell. That means sequels of popular franchises that only refine what made the original game sell. Zombies, modern military themes, cover mechanics, street racing, cop killing, stuff that non-critical consumers eat right up because they feel obliged to. Studio executives laughed at George Lucas when he presented Star Wars, and they turned down Counter-Strike kind of game ideas in the late 90's because "no one wants a game like that". If it is not something that has sold in the past, it won't get AAA funding and you won't see it on shelves or digital distributors.

- - Publishers again: Part of what made the 1997-2002 era AMAZING was the mod scene. While certainly not the first, Half-Life made user made content accessible and mainstream. Many fantastic game concepts spawned from the mod era started with Half-Life that only lost steam around 2006 (no pun intended, really). SDK tools and support however is rare now that so many games are produced in-house by publisher owned studios. Ubisoft is a perfect example of this evil: They ship attractive looking games and then just dump them. No SDK, no nothing. Why invest time and money in developing mod tools and libraries? The consumer already bought the game, now let's make him want to buy the sequel as well.

- - Lack of dedicated server support is a similar issue thanks to publishers. Why invest in this when having one of the participating players host the game obviously "works". Giving tools to modders and server admins is costly and it isn't readily apparent to the suits why this is important. The average gamer/consumer does NOT care about these things, they will buy the game even if it is just 10 maps and one game mode because when they get bored they BUY A NEW GAME. This is what most consumers in ANY market is like, even established media like films and music. Us gamers who care about this are as rare as the audiophiles who want LPs over CDs, rarely are we lucky enough to have a game publisher decide to humour us.

- On game marketing: understand the difference between a game developer and a game publisher. Normally it is not paid for by the developer, nor is the staff or resources of the developer used (except maybe for staging some in-game footage for a trailer). Marketing campaigns are almost always outsourced to studios that work with advertising, paid for by the publisher. One could argue that the publisher would be better off spending the advertising money on the game itself instead, but obviously marketing is what makes a game sell two million copies in one week and that is THE BOTTOM LINE. Anyways, marketing does not directly hurt the game in that it does not come at the game's expense. The money set aside for marketing is probably not something the publisher wants to spend on the game anyhow because the quality of longevity of the game is unimportant so long as it is good enough to sell in the first place,

- I'm getting a little winded typing all this up, but one last note: Guitar Hero is NOT a guitar simulator. It is not a poor replacement for actual musical talent, it is a game. I've played guitar for most of my life and I still write new stuff. Guess what? I still love guitar hero because it's a game. To tell a guitarist to go "play a real guitar instead" is like telling a soldier to go "fight a real war instead". Likewise, Second Life is not literally an alternative to "real life". It is a computerised playground for men who like to roleplay as women, boys who like to roleplay as men and FBI agents who pretend to be little girls. It is facebook for the above average technically inclined perv or furry.

CLOSING WORDS: We're in the downslope of an ever rising and falling curve that is the state of gaming. The last high peak was about 10 years ago, but my instincts tell me we're going to enter a new era of fantastic new games within 5 years. We survived the onslaught of bland WWII shooters in the mid 00's, we're going to survive the onslaught of 3rd person chest-high-wall-cover-shooters as well.
 
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Goldeneye was easily the best co-op ever. Come on, slappers only on Facility? Hilarious:)
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if you mean team DM i wouldn't count that as coop - although i loved GE.
Perfect dark gave proper mission coop and also a vs mission mode where you could play the part of various adversaries as the player progressed through a level.
Perfect dark was a really good continuation of goldeneye.

I could write all day about old classic games and how i think they were better but i wont bother - however one thing i feel strongly about-
i don't think AI improved at anything like the rate it should have done and i find that disappointing.
In fact for the most part it's stood still for 10 years, and that upsets me.
 
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People saying CoH is a great strategy game? It's exactly what the current gaming generation is about. It's flashy without substance. The moment I realized my tank loses to the AT-gun because the game is designed so, not because it was positioned with cunning and managed to shoot my tank in a vulnerable spot and rangers overran my MG42 because they magically can absorb more bullets from it than a regular rifleman I quit playing this game.

This is why I play Men of War, where you don't have tanks with hitpoints and other arbitrary retarded mechanics.

The last "good" games came out 2000-2008. Supreme Commander 1 (2 is an abomination that should've never been published), Red Orchestra series, Arma-series, Stalker-series, Outfront-series, Sword of The Stars... all the little gems most people never heard of.

Including most people ranting in this thread and then mentioning games like Borderlands. Asdf.

TL;DR There were a LOT trash games in the 90's too, people just didn't buy them. They do now because they're todays big hits.
 
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I agree, tho every now and then there are some good games to be had on PC. In the last few years I've enjoyed Metro 2033, STALKER: SoC, Dragon Age: Origins, Amnesia: Dark Descent, Batman: AA and Mass Effect 1. (and probably in that order for that matter)

Metro 2033 is quite linear and does have a couple of quicktime events but it was so well made.

Amnesia: Dark Descent was, and still is, the best horror game I have ever played. That is how you do horror. Scared me ****less

My favourite game of all time is Knights of the Old Republic tbh. Can't believe that it's nearly 10 years old.
 
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People saying CoH is a great strategy game? It's exactly what the current gaming generation is about. It's flashy without substance. The moment I realized my tank loses to the AT-gun because the game is designed so, not because it was positioned with cunning and managed to shoot my tank in a vulnerable spot and rangers overran my MG42 because they magically can absorb more bullets from it than a regular rifleman I quit playing this game.

This is why I play Men of War, where you don't have tanks with hitpoints and other arbitrary retarded mechanics.

The last "good" games came out 2000-2008. Supreme Commander 1 (2 is an abomination that should've never been published), Red Orchestra series, Arma-series, Stalker-series, Outfront-series, Sword of The Stars... all the little gems most people never heard of.

Including most people ranting in this thread and then mentioning games like Borderlands. Asdf.

TL;DR There were a LOT trash games in the 90's too, people just didn't buy them. They do now because they're todays big hits.
CoH is an overrated strategy game and affront to it's source material (historical relevance and accuracy). Why does this game need base building? It is tedious and sooo out of place in what could have been a modern game. What it should focus on is combat and combat alone.

And what about the combat itself then? Why oh why is it such an abstract game? It does not have to be, they obviously want a challanging game but why not let realism be the source of the challange? Why are we forced to play with the camera so low to the ground we can't even see what we're ordering our troops to fire at? Getting a good view of the situation is difficult and while it may be argued that war is like that, this game is too abstract for such an argument. The point of the game is to command your forces and win, not wrestle crappy controls to get immersed in the war.

Actually, there is an excellent realism mod (the name escapes me though) which makes infantry extremely vulnerable to machine guns as well as changing all model skins to look like real life uniforms and camoflage patterns. It actually turns this game into something enjoyable and clever. Still, it is an overrated clunky strategy game that sadly is the entry port for a lot of teenagers to WWII history (horrible thought, but true).

By the way I forgot to mention it in my last post but... Fallout 3 is a massive turd. Massive. The Bethesda board members and lead designers are all "my penis is awesome" kind of scum that hijacked the franchise to give birth to their pathetic lowest-common-denominator type of apocalypse that misses the mark entirely what the Fallout universe is about. "Here, have a nukelauncher and slavers to kill. Love us. LOVE US!". On it's own terms it is an average game, but as a Fallout game it is pure piss on your grave style heresy.
 
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stopped reading right there.

What is it then if not a game where you shoot people and occassionally talk to them? It was stripped of nearly all character statistics and inventory management and from what I gathered whatever you say to people it doesn't really matter except to fill up a silly meter wheter you're a good guy or a bad guy.
 
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Your perfect multiplayer game that has "perfect everything" is just impossible imo.
Also: "-Mods - That casual people will actually be able to work on extensively and not have to study forums to understand",
If you aren't willing to study how the engine or tools work, you don't have the energy nor will to make a full blown mod either. Takes years of dedicated work, and if you don't want to study the tools... well, tough luck.
 
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I personally think the downfall of the industry started with HL1 and got worse with HL2, after these games every other needs to tell a story, the devs fills it with script and guides you through the game by hand. Not telling HL1 was bad, it was a good game after all, it is the people who came later just dumbed everything down.

One of the greatest examples is God of War, awful game, the gameplay basicly consists of square, square, square, triangle, circle, quicktime, win. It gets praised all over because of only the violence (hardcore gaem!!!), all other develepers follow suit and dumb down their hack and slash games to something like this.

Its the players fault too, most people wants to be able to end the game.

Despite that, there are plenty of good games being launched, mostly by indie developers.
 
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CoH is an overrated strategy game and affront to it's source material (historical relevance and accuracy). Why does this game need base building? It is tedious and sooo out of place in what could have been a modern game. What it should focus on is combat and combat alone.

And what about the combat itself then? Why oh why is it such an abstract game? It does not have to be, they obviously want a challanging game but why not let realism be the source of the challange? Why are we forced to play with the camera so low to the ground we can't even see what we're ordering our troops to fire at? Getting a good view of the situation is difficult and while it may be argued that war is like that, this game is too abstract for such an argument. The point of the game is to command your forces and win, not wrestle crappy controls to get immersed in the war.

CoH was a excellent game and had some exciting new elements that blew some fresh air in a stagnating genre.
I personally am fan of basebuilding instead of pre-deploy and I spend a lot of time in this game and its expansion.
 
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I think this "videogames sucks now" feeling could be a sign that you have maybe played games for too long and that your judgement is clouded by nostalgia.

The NES and SNES era was also plagued by terrible games and even the good one sometimes had the depth of nowadays's free broswer flash game.

I paid $50 back in the days for "Battletoads" on the NES and all I could ever do was play the first 2
 
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What is it then if not a game where you shoot people and occassionally talk to them? It was stripped of nearly all character statistics and inventory management and from what I gathered whatever you say to people it doesn't really matter except to fill up a silly meter wheter you're a good guy or a bad guy.
Have a +rep on the house. I hated what they did to ME2 compared to the first game. ME2 was a shooter with dialog trees. They could have named it Gears of War in Space and it'd have been a good descriptor of what ME2 ended up being.
 
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What is it then if not a game where you shoot people and occassionally talk to them? It was stripped of nearly all character statistics and inventory management and from what I gathered whatever you say to people it doesn't really matter except to fill up a silly meter wheter you're a good guy or a bad guy.

I agree fully here.

I played ME2 first, thought it was awesome and the best RPG ever.
Followed by the purchase of ME1 to have a character from ME1 to ME3. So playing through the game I noticed that decisions actually made sense.

When I played this character in ME2 (with the personality I gave him) I noticed that even though I chose different decisions ('I hate you' instead of 'you're okay') the story went exactly the same (lines, reactions to your choice etc.)

Made me feel like it's a choice pure for the sake of making a choice...
I sincerely hope this rubbish is out of ME3, because I hate having to choose when I know it doesn't matter in the slightest sense:mad:


Second point:
I noticed that it's not a gaming culture shift though. Essentially everything today is dumbed down incredibly.
I am not that old (22), but remember the lego from 10 years ago?
The lego persona had an occasional sword and such, but you actually had to think of what you want to build and then design it (or use darwinian methods 'Maybe this works...').

I visited a toy store today, but apart from complete designs and techno stuff, they had nothing of the usual lego. You can't even buy buckets of lego and design stuff for yourself!! Everything is made for you in the way that you can't even design and build things, because there are a sick amount of specialized bricks involved.

This point is just to show that Activision and Lego are not so different after all. They are forcing creativity to extinction:(
That's why I like RO so much, they let go off your hand and let you walk of yourself.You may stumble and fall for a while, but it's much more fun to walk for yourself:D (spoken from the mind of a 3-year old)



Sometime last year I got sick of BC2 (certain EA kick after 10 minutes in-game) and I got really bored with everything I bought (except for EUIII and RO1/2).
Everything was fun for an hour, but then I get sick of things. The most fun of the last year came from indie games to be honest. They actually have to be original and that's just awesome:)

I even buy indie games which I never play. They develop great games which are very underrated most of the time, even if I don't like the genre, I buy them to support them. I see it as an investment of some sort.

Sudden ending and this is really a TL/DR for some people, but had to rant some myself with a little chaotic lay-out:p
 
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Call of Duty wants you to press square to repel a dog or press X to watch something blow up?..

My Keyboard doesn't have a Square.. but does have an X key.. I think my Commodore 64 had a key that had a square-like ANSI character you use?

(aka: if you want in-depth games, consoles are not known for that..)

aside from that, the rest of your rant seems to support smaller and indie game developers like. well.. Tripwire.. and the guys that made Dwarf Fortress, MineCraft.. Introversion Software, and so on. I dunno how big and evil 3C is, but they also have some decent not-increment-version-and-resell-for-$60-titles.

PC gamers are grumpy about spending more then $10 for a title, because most titles are complete sheet or rehashes. At least that's why I do it.. my Steam library is full of games that look interesting or from smaller developers that I haven't gotten around to playing yet.... and a few games from larger publishing houses that I get on 'its cheap now' sale.
 
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CLOSING WORDS: We're in the downslope of an ever rising and falling curve that is the state of gaming. The last high peak was about 10 years ago, but my instincts tell me we're going to enter a new era of fantastic new games within 5 years. We survived the onslaught of bland WWII shooters in the mid 00's, we're going to survive the onslaught of 3rd person chest-high-wall-cover-shooters as well.


Commenting on the shift in a market without understanding the driving force or changing environment can be dangerous. I think you were right on a lot of points, but with games costing ever increasing quantities of cash to develop we are going to need some kind of a quantum leap to decrease cost. If not the next new thing to come out ( usually started by the modding community ) will just spawn another 10 year brainless repeat cycle.
 
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I also disagree with the notione that console gamers destroyed gaming. They did not, at least not directly. Rather it's with the industries obsession over graphics, the resulting horrendous costs in producing and thus the ever declining willingness of publishers to take risks by investing in games with new mechanics that might not be a financial success.

Indeed. Players "demand" innovation and uniqueness but god forbid if the graphical rendering is not up to top quality level and god forbid even further if it causes people to alienate from the safe old formula with the possible innovation or trying something new. It's quite amusing with many clone-games (so to speak) that once some nice hit comes out follow the leader- movement gets rabid and they want to make it more like X, then the playerbase realises this is almost like X but X is still better -> why not play X instead? Combine this with rabid fanbases on every side that makes /b/ look a gentleman's place and lo and behold. Unless it's triple AAA production, then it gets a free pass in some ways.

Leto Atreides said:
I think this "videogames sucks now" feeling could be a sign that you have maybe played games for too long and that your judgement is clouded by nostalgia.

I'd be willing to argue that it simply is due to general functionality as a game is becoming very twisted and that since it's very subjective thing to begin with, what qualifies as decent\reasonable\good game is almost becoming own kind of trend of consensus. Take Duke Nukem Forever. The game got panned and even mentioning "I enjoyed it" on anywhere is enough to warrant a 10 tactical nukes to be launched near your house because of X, Y, Z and so on despite that if we consider it more as a game that's about shooting things and not superior interactive compelling movie-like-experience-on-trail argument-wise it has more credibility than some other games combined. It's more honest about being a shooter-like-game than anything else. Whether it's good enough for player that's up to you.

Now of course someone is bound to mention how player wants to experience something different and that's obvious. Nothing wrong with that, but since what qualifies as a reasonable\good gaming experience is a huge can of worms dictated by some unwritten standards and media that everything needs to be a new super-hyper-duper-insta-mega-blockbuster-like-classic-masterpiece to even qualify as a game. This is where the "nostalgia filler" becomes interesting thing to consider, as old games can be ****, there was their own load of bull**** but those that are at least competent or even decent at least are functional and often engaging about their gameplay. Take old early 90s Sonic games for example: some blue hedgehog running through levels with more or less faster speed while collecting rings to defeat some obese doctor\professor\whatever and eventually gets help from some fox with two tails (interesting to note fox is also a natural predator to a hedgehog) and so on and so on. Just try to make any kind of rationale behind that and **** it, you'll find it somewhere in Narnia trying to commit a suicide, but as a platformer the gameplay is extremely solid and functional.

Subjective preference or interest can be also a ***** to say do you find something interesting or not. I'll bring up one personal example as it is somewhat relevant to the discussion: BF3. I have zero practical interest for that game and I'll leave it at that. It might be a good game, it might be the game of the millenium, you can talk all about the engine, graphics and technical side and I still would say meh, not interested. So shall we leave it at that or does the other side want to continue the flamewar and argue against someone you don't know personally to convince how wrong the guy might be? Maybe, it's my loss so can we still leave it at that? That's where things can easily get ugly. :)
 
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