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Tactics Machine Gunners

always aim for the heart or head

I tend to aim near the waist and stomach area, always got some kills on crouched runners and sneaking guys. Sometimes I get killed by standing enemy leaning from cover.

*As MG I wait that others go secure frontline for me to defend and cover their attack, while indoors I just walk behind 'em and look for good defending spots or spray'n'pray rooms with enemies... recoil just doesn't help much with DP (no singleshots, heavy trigger finger).
 
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While mg is a great long range killing machine I've yet to see any effective use of suppression. Today I've missed about 5 shots shooting at a guy with rifle at about 80m. While it was my fault for not killing him still I find it strange that he was able to take a good aim (took him a while) and shoot me despite all the bullets whistling past his head. The only effective method of suppression in game is arty, frendly grenades are also effective, enemy grenades simply kill you. Also, for some reason the gunner in t-34 (dunno about PzIV) can be suppressed by mg fire (grenades work too, maybe a little too good considering that it explodes near your track and crew knows that they are 100% safe inside).


p.s. MG can effectivly suppress by killing lots of people but ingame suppression has nothing to do with it :3

They never get the bolded part.

Anyway it's no your fault if you have missed the enemy... another truth here is that an automatic weapon who presses directly on your shoulder will point upward is you fire 2 burst...

It's like in the old IL2 forum where you were claiming that the Fw190s were badly modelled (with facts) and fanboys keep saying that you have to "learn how to fly it". The sad part was that some years after we witnessed that the code of that planes were really porked...

A LMG to be used as sniper rifle... isn't strange?

As I said in another thread: in RL if you ambush a bunch of soldiers they will run to search cover... in this game they will stand up, aim and kill you since they are not frightened and their aim is not influenced by that.
Probably you could do better if it was not for that damned recoil.
 
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Vesper11 said:
While mg is a great long range killing machine I've yet to see any effective use of suppression. Today I've missed about 5 shots shooting at a guy with rifle at about 80m. While it was my fault for not killing him still I find it strange that he was able to take a good aim (took him a while) and shoot me despite all the bullets whistling past his head.
Some people have better control than the other people. I tend to miss when under fire, because of all that grey and blur (and because I am under fire too and want to kill my target as fast as possible). I panic.

6S.Manu said:
A LMG to be used as sniper rifle... isn't strange?
From what I've read - no.

6S.Manu said:
As I said in another thread: in RL if you ambush a bunch of soldiers they will run to search cover... in this game they will stand up, aim and kill you since they are not frightened and their aim is not influenced by that.
In RL people tend to be less risky with their own life (maybe because they have only one), that's the first reason why they run for cover instead of standing still and aiming at the enemy.
 
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A LMG to be used as sniper rifle... isn't strange?

Nope.avi

They use bloody HMG's as sniper rifles if they can get away with it. It's a big gun, very accurate, and excellent range:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Browning#M2_as_a_sniper_rifle

The M2 machine gun has also been used as a long-range sniper rifle, when equipped with a telescopic sight. Soldiers during the Korean War used scoped M2s in the role of a sniper rifle, but the practice was most notably used by US Marine Corps sniper Carlos Hathcock during the Vietnam War. Using an Unertl telescopic sight and a mounting bracket of his own design, Hathcock could quickly convert the M2 into a sniper rifle, using the traversing-and-elevating (T&E) mechanism attached to the tripod to assist in aiming at stationary targets. When firing semi-automatically, Hathcock hit man-size targets beyond 2000 yards
 
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I wrote LMG while you are speaking about HMG: to be called "HMG" a weapon must be fixed on tripods so you can steadily fire them with great precision at very long distance. They are used to aim at targets at more than 1km, to cover narrow areas of vital importance (for example a bridge).

An LMG instead was used to fire a shorter distance and it's managed with less precision since is mounted in a bipod and the is aimed directly by the soldier's arms (not through wheels like the tripod mounted weapon).

I can understand that it CAN BE used as a precision weapon, but this was not its primary role.

Look here, look at the long burst...
WW2 German Machine Gun MG34 Maschinen Gewehr in action - firing full auto - YouTube

IMO they decided to simulate that unrealistic recoil for gameplay reasons; I know you can manage it moving the mouse but the question is: "why must I have to do it when it should not move upward?"
 
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In RL people tend to be less risky with their own life (maybe because they have only one), that's the first reason why they run for cover instead of standing still and aiming at the enemy.

Right!

So how can we force the player to act that way?

CD mode is a good answer, but by now it's only a rush game...

The street this game (or better "MODs") should take for the CD mode is IMO to simulate a Attack-Defense battle where the defenders can place themselves in good time. While the attackers can spawn in different places at a fair good of distance (600m would be ideal... even 400m is good enough).

And of course, with maps who simulate a real battlefield... look at "grain elevator" and his scenery unrealistically placed exactly to provide cover... it's like Brothers in Arms....
 
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Look here, look at the long burst...

The two second one? That's not a long burst, and I wouldn't have any trouble keeping that on target (nor would anyone with a bit of practice). It's harder than the short bursts, but he basically fired the LMG -exactly- how you're supposed to fire it. Short, controlled bursts to maximize your accuracy and minimize your ammo consumption.

I think more to a "no camping = more fun"... after all the LMG operators together with the snipers are "the elite campers".

Elite campers, I like that. More effective than a dozen bolt action riflemen squatting at the spawn. Tee hee.
 
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The two second one? That's not a long burst, and I wouldn't have any trouble keeping that on target (nor would anyone with a bit of practice). It's harder than the short bursts, but he basically fired the LMG -exactly- how you're supposed to fire it. Short, controlled bursts to maximize your accuracy and minimize your ammo consumption..

Nobody is arguing about the optimal way a LMG has to be used (short burst): still you can choose to fire it in single shot mode or in a long burst (not caring about the barrel going hot or the ammo consumption).

0 to 5 seconds => 5 single shots (RO2 = alternative fire method)
5 to 8 seconds => 5 short bursts (RO2 = main fire method)
8 seconds to end => 3 long burst (RO2 = trigger steadily pressed)

Look at the all the work that guy needs to do to control the recoil... do you think he is in spray'n'pray mode?
Why should we have to move the mouse down to prevail the recoil when it's easily controllable?
 
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@6S.Manu

Hold up, you're missing my point. I've said several times in this thread that the most accurate bursts are 1-2 seconds. Watch the video and count 1-Missisippi 2-Missisippi. His single shot bursts are less than a second, his short bursts are 1 second, and his long bursts are 2 seconds and he's keeping them on target with ease. This is basically what I've been saying the whole time. It's easy to keep LMGs on target in RO2 if you fire 1-2 second bursts.
 
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This discussion is not going anywhere. And it is stupid.

How easy is it to control bursts and hit in real life?

I can tell you as much that 12.7mm NSV mounted on a tank and held in place by a solid tank mount locked in position WILL MISS a chopper/APC sized target at 600m by 3rd round simply because there will always be some tolerances in the mount. That is mounted on a tank.

Most soldiers I have seen can not keep 7.62x54r PKM on 1x1 meter target for any length bursts at 150m.

Read the excellent U.S. field manual on MG operation (originally posted by DAT), namely the FM 3-22.68. Especially see page D-7 Firing table I advanced crew gunnery. Modern gunners in US Amy are required to hit 3 out of 7 human targets and a car target at 400 meters to pass. This is with 320 rounds. Put a similar test in the game and see how difficult this would be: I bet not very difficult.
Also you would like to read about shooting MG in marksmanship fundamentals and see if it is so easy as you think it is. There are whole lot of things to consider even before thinking about hitting anything. All sorts of things come granted in the game environment and make things easier for you.
Then you might want to consider about difficulties in mounting the weapon in combat environment. It isn't the pool table the game let's us think. Or even a firing range with even concrete floor. Or how many times in game have you had your weapon drop 5cm down because the ground gave away in the first burst? Or how many times have you had to fire your weapon canted due to uneven ground? Or have your bullets drifted in the wind? Did I mention that in real life you really can't mount your bipod on a window sill and expect to be able to move your firing sector to sides without dropping a bipod foot from the sill?

Whilst pondering that: take a stroll and look how small people are from distance. 150m is pretty far if you are trying to spot a soldier lying on the ground. At 600m it is difficult to see a standing person, especially so when you are looking through iron sights. If you read the marksmanship fundamentals you know by now that you should be concentrating on your front post while aiming at a target. If your eye is focused at 1m distance seeing a human target at 600 is more or less impossible. And heck, you say a MG should be accurate to 1200m! Maybe for you eagle eyes out there, but I can't even see people at that distance without magnification. (BTW. One of the top snipers of Wehrmacht said he was efficient up to 600m and that was with a 4x optic and a sniper rifle.)

My point is: You are asking for things because you think you know how they should be, not because you know.

Bipod mounted machineguns are not easy to control. They will change their point of impact after first shot and on all consequent shots. Bipods are on a swivel and when the gun recoils rearward the barrel will go either up or down. If the bipod legs are tilted towards front (or are indeed up-right), the barrel will drop - if they are tilted towards rear barrel will rise. If the shooters shoulder will move the barrel will tilt more. Shooters shoulder will move in recoil. If the shooter doesn't know how to take the recoil into his body the barrel will also turn sideways causing the rounds to miss from either side, usually opposite side of the trigger finger. And all this happens in perfect conditions on the firing range. Remember that a movement less than the width of your finger is enough to cause one meter miss. You can't see that on a Youtube video....

Seriously what the f... do you want? Rifles are already too easy to fire accurately, do you want to ruin the MG's too?
 
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@Jippofin

I understand what you are saying, and in part I agree with you.

Look your talking to a guy who fly with DCS A10 (is that sim enough detailed?) but since we can't simulate everything in this engine I'm fine with the "aids" provided by the game (bipod positioning, the ground's consistency ect... and of course partial recoil absorbing). My avatar is still a MG operator, he should know how to work with his weapon.

I fully agree that it can't be precise on long bursts (nor the HMG after 1km): my only problem is the weapon always pointing upward in that way!

Give me a random little movement to be corrected (I'm all for it!) but I can't stand a gun pointing upward even if you're firing at a target lower than your position.

Anyway pg. 94 of the "The German Squad in Combat":

catturavy.png


www.thortrains.net/downloads/German-squad-in-combat.pdf

Had the enemy all MGs with magnification?
 
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Effective range just means that it could put lethal rounds out to 600-800m. I could see targets at that distance. Hitting them would be rather challenging, sure, but that's why LMGs are better than bolts. If I fire 4-5 bullets with a big of spread with one trigger squeeze, I'm 4-5 times more likely to kill my target if I aim well.

So yeah, I'd be shooting at specks, but that doesn't mean I'm not dangerous to those people down range, and it doesn't mean I'm using the gun any differently than I would if they were 200m out, or 50m out.
 
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Not really sure about the MG-34, but I know the MG-42 had the booster added to the muzzle to increase dispersion because it was too accurate/had too small of a cone of fire. In general, LMGs (unless they have a shortened barrel), MMGs, and HMGs are really accurate in single shot and 2 round bursts. 3 round bursts on just about any gun aren't great because the 3rd round tends to fly off anywhere due to barrel harmonics alone, hence all the weapons with 2 round burst mode instead of 3 these days. Even an AKM has an accurate 2 round burst, I can tell you that from experience. Also, the higher the RPM the more accurate a 2 round burst will be (look up the AN-94). Unless the RPM is slow enough or the time it takes for the gas block to fill is long enough that the shooter/recoil has time for the barrel to re-align to the target before the 2nd round exits (which is the case with an AKM). That's all perfect conditions though, shooter's capability excluded. Iron sights, you'd be lucky to hit even a standing man at 400 meters with a bolt action rifle. The finnish sniper Sama is one of the greatest in history and that was about his maximum effective range for irons.

Marksmen (not snipers) and MMGs are said to be effective at 600-800m due to 2 reasons for the most part- 1.) having a spotter to help adjust shots and 2.) watching the tracers. Not to mention already knowing the ranges in his fire arc and where the target is in said arc.

Anyway, my personal opinion is that the single shot on the MGs is perfect, the 2 round burst should be more accurate (the 2nd round flies too high), after that I could care less. 1-2 rounds is what it's going to take to get the kill, if you're dumping off longer bursts there should be more targets and your range to the enemy should be close enough to get the hits. If anything, start your burst at the knee. Technically the MG-34 should be a tad more accurate than the other MG in short bursts due to fire rate difference and just overall mechanical difference.
 
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