Tanks - The Good, The Bad and the Beauty.

[madosopia]

No, there is no way of controlling the squad, nor tank crew members once the tank is locked. You can however use like Mumble and tell each other which tank-squad to join and hope that some random dude don't make it to the squad between you guys.

The squad voip works as a vehicle chat in those maps that only have 1 tank per squad, so in every other map/server u have to use Mumble etc to circumvent this design.

In a general notion there is not much incentive to team tank in RO2.

Well, as long as there is actually a way for us to choose which tank we want to be in I'm fine... Feel like a complete nub, but how do I choose which squad I want to be in? In the spawnscreen I can choose class and spawnpoint, not squad?

 

[Dr.Atkins]

Well, as long as there is actually a way for us to choose which tank we want to be in I'm fine... Feel like a complete nub, but how do I choose which squad I want to be in? In the spawnscreen I can choose class and spawnpoint, not squad?

Perhaps this message should get some TWIs attention that the current system is not as good as it could be. I first thought that you have to choose a class and then choose a squad but it didn't work like that.

Anyway there is a tab at the low end of the page where you can choose Class-page (default view) and Squad-page.

Choosing from class page puts u in a random tank where as in Squad-page u can choose the tank/squad and specific position.

Anyhow, the Class-page has some issues. When choosing a Tank Commander and even "lock the tank" option , it will make you sometimes join an already existing tank squad with crewmen already in the tank. You usually notice this only after few spawn cycles, cos u won't spawn until the current tank is destroyed where as when u get a fresh tank u will spawn in the end of the next spawn-cycle.

 

[madosopia]

Perhaps this message should get some TWIs attention that the current system is not as good as it could be. I first thought that you have to choose a class and then choose a squad but it didn't work like that.

Anyway there is a tab at the low end of the page where you can choose Class-page (default view) and Squad-page.

Choosing from class page puts u in a random tank where as in Squad-page u can choose the tank/squad and specific position.

Anyhow, the Class-page has some issues. When choosing a Tank Commander and even "lock the tank" option , it will make you sometimes join an already existing tank squad with crewmen already in the tank. You usually notice this only after few spawn cycles, cos u won't spawn until the current tank is destroyed where as when u get a fresh tank u will spawn in the end of the next spawn-cycle.

Had a look at it and think I have it figured out now... Quite confusing, wouldn't it be much better and convenient to have the squad screen as default? It says what classes are available in any case, giving us the same information as the class screen, so why not? Good that it exists though if you want to find a friend you're playing with.

 

[Dr.Atkins]

Has anyone seen any comments from the devs regarding the issues in the 1st post? Anything? Do they even care or are they just busy with inf. stuff?

The At rifle vs Tank issues has been talked quite a lot in different topics so I added some links to the issue 28.

The list is so big that i am having trouble tracking issues
Added the mg-gunner issue as 38.
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=66706

 

[defektive]

If the tank model is on the list it is likely low priority, if not last. As far as RO2 is concerned tanking is a) an afterthought and b) rather niche. (No need to mention that it's broken.) Accepting those facts - which as an avid RO1 tanker these are bitter pills to swallow - it does make sense to sort the core game out first as that will sate more of the disappointed majority.

 

[ComeAndSee]

I've actually found it easier to kill PZ4's with HE rounds than AP.

 

[Dr.Atkins]

I've actually found it easier to kill PZ4's with HE rounds than AP.

This sounds kind of odd. In DH you can finish some tanks with HE if you first penetrate with AP (one of the ways to kill a JP; 1 AP to the side and few HEs to the front when the bastard turns toward you) but trying to take a tank out completely with HE takes a lot of shells. I've not even tested this in RO2. How many shells and in which situation did your kills happened?

I suppose some historical nitpicker could then enlighten us if this is realistic.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

I agree completely with every single point in the OP there.

I would like to add though if there were repair points just have it take some 60 seconds or so and move you to a new tank. This is not only realistic that they would just give you another tank if they had one, but it also means you arent fudging reality by saying they fixed the tank in two minutes flat.

Also at ammo Caches the tank commander should be able to select his ammo loadout, IE on pavlovs house you might want just 5 AP and the rest HE so you can use your t34 as mobile artillery, or you may want to deal with the pesky tank and tank and take 30 AP.

 

[shaqism]

I honestly cannot stand tanking on combined arms, the maps feel like they were not designed to have tanks in them.

 

[Dr.Atkins]

I honestly cannot stand tanking on combined arms, the maps feel like they were not designed to have tanks in them.

I suppose the tanks were just added to those maps just for the heck of it. The current maps are way to small for tanks, even Gumrak is tiny map when it comes to tank-only maps.

 

[MikkOwl]

Did some testing with a friend. T-34 vs P4. Various distances, angles, spots. Some interesting data:

1. T-34 penetrated P4 armour universally, including the turret head on, 9/10 times (or so), within 650 meters. Literally could shoot anywhere on the front of the turret and smash through. Could kill one or two crew and breaking the turret armour. In general however, overall interior damage was limited. Aim for the ammo bins.

2. The P4 did not penetrate the T-34 universally within 650 meters. Even at 100 meters frontal armour, many shots would deflect. A slight upward incline for the T-34 made big difference. Angling it slightly at 1 o'clock also helped. Frontal armour was often tough and deflected or absorbed plenty of punishment. The hull MG seemed to be the most reliable spot to penetrate. It was inconsistant, where long range shots seemed more deadly and reliable than closer range. The turret behaved similar to the P4 turret except penetrating hits seemed to do more damage (killing commander/loader more reliably). Penetrating shots from the front right chassis would kill the hull MG crewman and break something on the rear left (damaging the brakes).

3. The tracks seemed highly resiliant to punishment on both tanks but can be broken.

4. The sights are often messed up whenever the tank has been involved in aiming and rotating turret while on an upward, sideway or downward incline. Usually it starts shooting to the left of the sights. Something seems to be amiss when the tank isn't on flat ground. When having driven only on fairly flat ground without aiming, the sights tended to be completely accurate.

4. T-34 periscope rotation does not appear to move visually when seen from the outside.

5. The main guns were almost never damaged.

6. Frequently, the turret rotation is out of sync on the enemy tank. The main gun facing maybe 20-30 degrees to the side of you, yet shots come flying sideways dead on target.

7. Graphically and sound wise: A shot not hitting a tank gives off lots of dirt thrown in the air and a muffled explosion sound. A deflected shot gives off a small spark and a "plionk" sound. The shell itself can visually be seen bouncing off and landing somewhere sometimes. A penetrating shot often give off a small explosion graphical effect, and a more metal crushing sound effect, no matter what real damage it did inside the tank. The same appears to apply to AT rifles where shooting at a vision slit can bring small explosions each time, without damaging anything on the tank. Unclear if the FX is different when an armour plate is damaged by a hit or not.

Lessons learned

1. Stay away from non-flat ground (with one exception). T-34 should park on an upward slope.
2. P4 armour is non-existant within 650m. But T-34 frontal armour is still viable. Getting as much of an angle as possible is important. 1 o'clock angle towards enemy. Park on an upward slope (to raise the front of the tank slightly). Strongly avoid doing the opposite - being shot at while parked downhill.
3. P4 best defence is hull-down with only turret exposed. Shots will penetrate the turret, but will not reliably kill crew or damage components.

 

[The Beast (nl)]

This sounds kind of odd. In DH you can finish some tanks with HE if you first penetrate with AP (one of the ways to kill a JP; 1 AP to the side and few HEs to the front when the bastard turns toward you) but trying to take a tank out completely with HE takes a lot of shells. I've not even tested this in RO2. How many shells and in which situation did your kills happened?

I suppose some historical nitpicker could then enlighten us if this is realistic.

I always used HE on angled is2 tanks and it works.

 

[The Beast (nl)]

Thanks for testing.

I have 1 point that i can write here.

When your right track is shot/damaged your left track becomes yelllow/red.

I thought that this was alos in ROost or am i wrong?

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

1. T-34 penetrated P4 armour universally, including the turret head on, 9/10 times (or so), within 650 meters. Literally could shoot anywhere on the front of the turret and smash through. Could kill one or two crew and breaking the turret armour.

2. The P4 did not penetrate the T-34 universally within 650 meters. Even at 100 meters frontal armour, many shots would deflect. A slight upward incline for the T-34 made big difference. Angling it slightly at 1 o'clock also helped. Frontal armour was often tough and deflected or absorbed plenty of punishment.

So if your tests are accurate then basically:

1.) The range at which both tanks should be penetrating each other frontally is nerfed. 650 meters in game vs +1,200 meters in real life.

2.) The T-34 has remnants of RO I's unrealistic deflecting code. 100 meter deflecting? Plenty of punishment? Seriously?

Getting as much of an angle as possible is important. 1 o'clock angle towards enemy.

MikkOwl, could you please test shooting at the turret of a 1 o'clock angled T34? Shots at the turret should negate any angling but I bet this is not in game.

 

[Oldih]

2.) The T-34 has remnants of RO I's unrealistic deflecting code. 100 meter deflecting? Plenty of punishment? Seriously?

A slight upward incline for the T-34 made big difference. Angling it slightly at 1 o'clock also helped. Frontal armour was often tough and deflected or absorbed plenty of punishment.

Considering the angle on impact at such range against that kind of angle the shell would barely grip on the glacis unless you consider "scratching the plate" as penetration and german engineering allowed magical 70 degree turns on contact while retaining perfect kinetic energy.

MikkOwl, could you please test shooting at the turret of a 1 o'clock angled T34? Shots at the turret should negate any angling.

Hull angle has no real effect on turret in RO2 unless the game's hitdetection is being an arse or the server is lagging like hell.

 

[Dr.Atkins]

Mikko, good stuff. So basically the main issue with the tank boils down to the post-penetration damage which is too mild and makes the gameplay sponge-sponge when in RO1 it was ping-pong. This would be my nr.1 to be changed if possible.

About the 6.; Damn, will they ever get a rid of this issue? At least it isn't as bad as in DH where JPs shoot from their side :-/

I haven't lately got any inspiration to even play RO2 tanking that much. It is just not as good as it could be.
Main issues are;

post-penetration damage aka sponge-sponge issue
annoying uber-accurate-AI that wont shut up
1 small tank map only
only 2 tanks
lack of a good squad system
Voip system is too limited and still forces ppl to use mumble
magic super fast repairing
rubberbanding etc. issues

Overall the tank aspect has a huge potential but it needs a lot of work still to be even half as enjoyable as in DH for example. Unfortunately TWI seems to have 0 interest on this matter.

 

[MikkOwl]

I should probably have mentioned that the testing was not extensive enough to cover ranges beyond 650 meters. :S Will try to get to that stage next session. Pardon for being misleading.

I don't remember testing shooting at T-34 turret at an angle. However, I think that there were many cases where the shells would deflect if shot far enough to the side of the turret. Hitting dead on is easy on these shorter ranges though, with pretty disastrous results inside the tank.

Regarding the "T-34 front armour deflecting at 100m". It did not do this if flat and head on, but when angled a little to the side and on a slight upward slope, the P4 could shoot all day and not penetrate the front (more than 9/10 shots) - unless hitting the hull MG port or some other critical place we did not discover. The driver's hatch slit took direct hits (I was in there, saw it) without penetration also.

I am also of the impression that the armour is mostly irrelevant at these ranges and maybe the interior damage does not spall enough. During our testing when shooting at the P4, often counted many "hit, penetred" when shooting the front of the turret and chassis, without it having any effect on the crew or components inside. I don't know enough about the extent of spalling on that metal & shells back then, but I imagine there would be lots of hot metal fragments being torn off and bouncing around a bit (striking crew memebers) in the tank if penetrated.

If knowing where to aim on the P4, and being able to accurately put a shell there = boooooom. This is in the chassis only. The turret is un-boomable, but can be decrewed.. eventually, or if being lucky. Don't know, seems to be hard to do it consistently (but not hard to do on the T-34).

EDIT: When angling the T-34 to 1 o'clock, the deflections were more likely (at any range) from the front but the best benefit by far came from being at an upward slope, which increases the angle of the already nicely sloped frontal armour. Considering how thick that armour also is, I do not find it implausible that shells could deflect even at 100'ish meters. Note also that P4 hits on the (slightly) exposed right side of the chassis when in the 1 o'clock position, did a mix of penetration and deflection. The right armour plate would get damaged quickly, and the right track could also be damaged. But don't recall any catastrophical effects.

Will attempt a systematic test at 100m, 500m and 1000m. Center shots from flat ground on turret, turret ring and chassis. From 12 o'clock and 1 o'clock.

Dr.Atkins, how did you know my name is "Mikko"?

 

[Golf33]

Great testing effort MikkOwl. TWI should have hired you to do their internal testing. Hope they listen to you now.

 

[Kleist]

Whats about some impossible things about the tanks?

- Why i don

 

[MikkOwl]

Yep, the more obvious remaining problems:

1. Missing reload when switching shell type.
2. Inability to reload the MGs manually.
3. Setting shell reloading to manual does not work.
4. Tanks bouncing around when static, making the sights jump.
5. Tanks on hills at a distance appear as hovering a meter above the ground (even when from their perspective, they are hull or even turret down position).
6. When switching from P4 gunner to any other position, the AI resets its orders to "fire at will" and starts rotating the turret around and engaging things. Tank commander must reissue "hold fire" every time.
7. When switching from P4 gunner to any other position, and the AI gunner moves the turret around, and then switching back into gunner position, the turret automatically rotates itself to where the human player last had aimed the turret (can be 180 degrees sometimes depending on where AI gunner had moved it to).
8. Can switch to the main gunsight and other positions instantly by clicking the hotkeys for them, skipping the normal movement animations (for example, switching from looking out the left turret slit to main optics).
9. Tank throttle changes itself to 0% (stops) when switching to or from drivers position.
10. Tanks can drive off before the round starts, although stuck in the drivers default view.
11. Lots of tank teleportation going on in multiplayer.
12. Gunner AI has exceptional situational awareness around the P4 tank. Can let him find and rotate the turret at any nearby enemy infantry and then let him blast them, or blast them yourself.

Great testing effort MikkOwl. TWI should have hired you to do their internal testing. Hope they listen to you now.

The test session was pretty short, with not a lot of data collected. Just sort of "try several shots of this here, then this there" for 30 minutes. Just driving into the correct position ate up a lot of the time. This means the data is unreliable. I am sure the developers know much more about how stuff is supposed to behave and how it is actually behaving. On the forums though, we just have the rumors and peoples impressions from playing. This test, as flawed as it is, was at least a bit more systematic & scientific.