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Mkb42(H) recoil
- Thread starter Unus Offa Unus Nex
- Start date
Whoa... balance? Did Hitler and Stalin have a conversation over better weapons during WWII? Like Hitler telling Stalin he couldn't mass produce SVTs or Stalin telling Hitler to stop sending out the luftwaffe to bomb the cities? The answers are obvious if you posess intellegence.
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Than Make PPSH more accurate with less recoil, I fired a semi auto version and its very accurate (for a submachinegun) up to 150 meters.
PPSh-41 - YouTube
PPSh-41 - YouTube
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You can't actually see what the shooter in videos see. The recoil in the game isn't lifting you barrel really that much. It makes you feel that way if your target appears small to you. I have no problem controlling the recoil in cqb or even tad bit longer ranges. Go and shoot some wall @ 50 m range see how wide decals spread. Pretty small are I think. I haven't shot that weapon either but I'd guess it's less then in real life.
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Some people in here sure have some very weird ideas of how recoil works.
Generally, the heavier the weapon the lighter the recoil for any given round it fires, however the weight of the bolt is important as-well, cause if it's heavy the momentum of the bolt being trown back and forth is going to be higher as-well = increasing recoil.
Now having fired the StG a couple years back, and having fired the AK47 in its many variations a hundred times before, the StG features less recoil in full auto fire thanks to a lighter bolt and heavier overall weight. The Mkb42(H) isn't much different, the rate of fire is similar but it still features a lighter bolt than the AK47, and the initial energy of the round it fires is lower as-well = less recoil.
Back to the main point though:
If the operator is experienced, an AK47 (and therefore naturally also an Mkb42(H)), exhibits less recoil than the ingame Mkb42(H) does, which is the issue here.
The issue ingame is the excessive barrel climb and sideways movement, which in reality isn't present to the experienced operator. Furthermore ingame it's as if it gets harder and harder to control the longer you squeeze the trigger, which again is in abit of a contrast to reality, seeing as most experienced shooters will be able to hold back the barrel climb quite quickly and keep the gun level until it's emptied.
Another couple of examples:
AK-47 - YouTube
Me w/ Full Auto Romanian AK-47 - YouTube
There's a good reason the assault rifle eliminated the use of SMG's within the military
Generally, the heavier the weapon the lighter the recoil for any given round it fires, however the weight of the bolt is important as-well, cause if it's heavy the momentum of the bolt being trown back and forth is going to be higher as-well = increasing recoil.
Now having fired the StG a couple years back, and having fired the AK47 in its many variations a hundred times before, the StG features less recoil in full auto fire thanks to a lighter bolt and heavier overall weight. The Mkb42(H) isn't much different, the rate of fire is similar but it still features a lighter bolt than the AK47, and the initial energy of the round it fires is lower as-well = less recoil.
Back to the main point though:
If the operator is experienced, an AK47 (and therefore naturally also an Mkb42(H)), exhibits less recoil than the ingame Mkb42(H) does, which is the issue here.
The issue ingame is the excessive barrel climb and sideways movement, which in reality isn't present to the experienced operator. Furthermore ingame it's as if it gets harder and harder to control the longer you squeeze the trigger, which again is in abit of a contrast to reality, seeing as most experienced shooters will be able to hold back the barrel climb quite quickly and keep the gun level until it's emptied.
Another couple of examples:
AK-47 - YouTube
Me w/ Full Auto Romanian AK-47 - YouTube
There's a good reason the assault rifle eliminated the use of SMG's within the military
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In full auto ? standing ? I'd be surprised if you can get more than 1-2 bullets on target like that
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Unus, when was the last time you fired an open-bolt assault-rifle?
This is the rather crucial difference between the MKb-42(H) and the final STG-44, the MKb was open bolt, the later models where cloused bolt.
You seem plenty knowledgeable about firearms, so i doubt i need explain why that does make a difference, and especially when dealing with a weapon that has a heavy bolt-carrier.
Also, let's not confuse the AK-47 and the AK-59 variants, and much less later production models based on the AK-74 design, there is a rather jarring difference in their recoil..
You want to argue realism and historical accuracy? Fine, then let's remove the weapon entirely, because there does not exist a shred of evidence that this firearm was ever in Stalingrad, all facts point to the weapon having only 92 copies build in the entirety of 1942 where all the maps of the game take place, and that it was undergoing testing and further R&D back in Germany for the entire year. And when it was finally undergoing fieldtesting in the spring of 1943 onwards, all data suggest they where beeing sent further north where the frontiles where more stable, and there is no data to suggest that even a single one of thease guns ever made it to Stalingrad.
Also, just to be even more pedantic, there exists no evidence that 6 out of every 32 soldiers was armed with this Prototype weapon, infact, even 1 per every 32 soldier is absolutely out of the question.
This is the rather crucial difference between the MKb-42(H) and the final STG-44, the MKb was open bolt, the later models where cloused bolt.
You seem plenty knowledgeable about firearms, so i doubt i need explain why that does make a difference, and especially when dealing with a weapon that has a heavy bolt-carrier.
Also, let's not confuse the AK-47 and the AK-59 variants, and much less later production models based on the AK-74 design, there is a rather jarring difference in their recoil..
You want to argue realism and historical accuracy? Fine, then let's remove the weapon entirely, because there does not exist a shred of evidence that this firearm was ever in Stalingrad, all facts point to the weapon having only 92 copies build in the entirety of 1942 where all the maps of the game take place, and that it was undergoing testing and further R&D back in Germany for the entire year. And when it was finally undergoing fieldtesting in the spring of 1943 onwards, all data suggest they where beeing sent further north where the frontiles where more stable, and there is no data to suggest that even a single one of thease guns ever made it to Stalingrad.
Also, just to be even more pedantic, there exists no evidence that 6 out of every 32 soldiers was armed with this Prototype weapon, infact, even 1 per every 32 soldier is absolutely out of the question.
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Most certainly, but take a look at the two in operation
The StG certainly has an advantage in semi auto fire, but in automatic fire, it very much is the same, the bolt & gun weight is similar and the bolt goes back forth with much the same force But yes, the StG will be more accurate with the first couple of shots.
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Reading this post in the context of a gun owner and collector ashames me.
Heavier guns = more recoil? I guess that carbine rifles have more recoil then their heavier brothers based on pure magic; yep magic, thats it....
By all means make the MKB a weapon of pure rape, but please 1 on the axis team ONLY.
Heavier guns = more recoil? I guess that carbine rifles have more recoil then their heavier brothers based on pure magic; yep magic, thats it....
By all means make the MKB a weapon of pure rape, but please 1 on the axis team ONLY.
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Mkb 42 may be OP by comaprison, but there's a reason why the entire world uses assault rifles as the standard soldiers firearm. They are controllable, accurate, fast firing and deadly. Its a gun that excels at killing human sized targets at all combat ranges.
The Mkb 42 is OP in RO2, because it WAS OP. Thats why almost everybody started using Assault Rifles and fully auto Battle Rifles immediately after WW2.
Problem with the Mkb 42 remains that theres way to many of them.... or when it comes down to it, that it exists at all in RO2. If the Mkb 42 existed in this quantity in Stalingrad, the Germans would have won.
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Most certainly, but take a look at the two in operation
But yes, the StG will be more accurate with the first couple of shots.
And would you say this well known trait of the open-bolt design is even remotely modelled in this game?
Let's not kid ourselves here, Ro2 may do a better job replicating the handling of firearms than most games, god knows that in most shooters today it feels like the gun is beeing fired by a robot, and Ro2 is certainly better than that.
But we're still quite a ways off from having truely realistic shooting mechanics in this game, especially aiming is far to easy, you can shoulder a gun in this game and hit a target at 100 meters away with pinpoint precision within just a second.. when was the last time you did that at a range?
I don't know about you, but i most certainly do need some more time than that to get a good shot off even at a mere 50 meters, i cannot do that in a split second like what can be done in this game with ease.
And if you want to talk recoil issues only, then what is the deal with the MP-40 having absolutely none of it, whilst the PPSh kicks like a .30-06 after a 3 round burst?
I may never have fired an MP-40 and PPSh, but i have fired an H&K MP5-A3 and a Sten MK.II on full-auto (the MP5 is standard issue with the Danish police force, and we have quite a few Sten's still kicking around from WWII, and i had some connections in the Danish police), and i destinctly remember both of them having recoil!
The PPSh may have a higher ROF than the MP5-A3, but only by 100 rounds per minute (MP5-A3 = 800 ROF. PPSh-41 = 900 ROF), but it also fires a less powerfull round and has allmost twice the weight (MP5-A3 = 2.88 Kg unloaded. PPSh-41 = 3.63 Kg Unloaded), and unlike the MP5 the PPSh has a recoil-compensator on the muzzle (the shape of the barrel-shroud), and the PPSh in the game doesen't even fire at it's full ROF, just listen to it, does that sound as rapid as the real one to you? because it doesen't to me, so where on earth is this excessive recoil comming from? Why does it kick like this?
And why is it just not there on the MP-40? I should imagine the recoil on the MP-40 is slightly less than that of the Sten MK.II, but less than Sten does not equal allmost zero..
There is plenty work to be done before this game can claim authentic shooting mechanics, and as long as the PPSh is horribly nerfed in this regard, i don't think we want to be making the MKb even easier to use, much less considdering how abundant that thing has now become, and the fact that the German LMG is also significantly better than the Russian offering..
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Grobut, I sincerely don't see any problem with the PPSH atm, it has litterally close to no recoil IMO. I'm at lvl 37 with the PPSH and it's a rapid fire laser gun for me, the recoil seems quite realistic.
The MP40 seems fine too (lvl 31), in reality it has almost nil in terms of recoil, it just kinda rattles in your hands.
The Mkb42, MG34 & DP28 are the only guns ingame atm I think have slightly too much recoil.
As for the PPSH's rate of fire ingame atm, it shoots faster than the MG34 which has a rate of fire of around 800-900 rpm, very similar to the PPSh. So again, don't see the problem.
Also regarding the super fast aiming ingame, on that we can agree, it's not possible in real life. Also there is close to no sway after sprinting, which again is horribly wrong.
Well yes I would, seeing as the recoil is quite severe even on the first two shots. HOWEVER, problem is that ingame it gets worse with each shot, which is unlike what happens with an open bolt asssault rifle in real life, or infact a closed bolt one.
The MP40 seems fine too (lvl 31), in reality it has almost nil in terms of recoil, it just kinda rattles in your hands.
The Mkb42, MG34 & DP28 are the only guns ingame atm I think have slightly too much recoil.
As for the PPSH's rate of fire ingame atm, it shoots faster than the MG34 which has a rate of fire of around 800-900 rpm, very similar to the PPSh. So again, don't see the problem.
Also regarding the super fast aiming ingame, on that we can agree, it's not possible in real life. Also there is close to no sway after sprinting, which again is horribly wrong.
Grobut said:
Well yes I would, seeing as the recoil is quite severe even on the first two shots. HOWEVER, problem is that ingame it gets worse with each shot, which is unlike what happens with an open bolt asssault rifle in real life, or infact a closed bolt one.
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There's a good reason the assault rifle eliminated the use of SMG's within the military
Not really, they just got delegated into more specialised use under specific circumstances.
Unus Offa said:
Besides those if we're really honest the bigger problem with the whole recoil debate is that conservation and effective use of ammunition is something that's not present almost in any kind of (typical) shooter game no matter how you look at it. You can go and fire away full auto as much as you will because well, you can just instaloot something else instead or if you die you'll just respawn with full ammo load. Obviously it's fundamental thing as games are games, but if we want to discuss between realistic individual details vs realistic overall dynamics it does become interesting point to consider.
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Not really, they just got delegated into more specialised use under specific circumstances.
= spec ops stealth missions
Oh I agree, but this is a point where I believe the difference between games and reality will always persist.
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