Flawed design of some maps

[Krator]

First of all, I haven't played beta. I'm just a RO gamer with decent memory and a bit of (I hope so) reason.

What's the point of this topic? I think many RO maps have flawed design (and some ROHOS maps MAY have similiar flaws).
Anyone remembers a Kranyi Oktyabr map? The one with Petrol Yard, Central something, Garage and Assembly hall? First 2 objectives were sniper's heaven, and basically favored rifles. In the garage and assembly hall fighting the rifle was much less useful and SMGs dominated the battlefield.
Some maps, like Danzig just simply favored close combat. Riflemen had some places to use their superior range, but it was mostly CC map. Same with Pavlov's House in RO.

This was a flawed design, which basically made certain weapons dominate, while not allowing to use the others at their full potential.

Now, I read about Grain Elevator map - first long range combat THEN smg heaven. Same as Krasnyi, the same design flaw.
Look at some of the better Darkest Hour maps. Stoumont, Raids, Hurtgenwald, Hurtgen Village, Juno Beach etc. etc. All of them allow both SMGs and rifles to shine. Why? Because there is not enough cover and obstacles to totally block the rifles ability to get kills, yet there are enough buildings to clear and enough routes for smgs to get close enough.
Basically, in Darkest Hour I frequently have a dillema, whether to choose rifle or smg, because both are useful. And mind you, SMGs in Darkest Hour are much more deadly than in standard Red Orchestra, so they probably are similiar in performance to the smgs in RO:HOS.


To sum it up: I think that a more open-style map, which allows multiple paths through the city, includes both open spaces with only some cover (which to some extent are unavoidable but can be crossed with help of some skill and smoke grenades) and smaller buildings that are defensive strongpoints and places for smgs to shine (the buildings/trenches and open areas are usually nicely mixed up) is much more fun than an Krasnyi-like rifle phase -> smg phase style of maps.


P.S.: of course many DH maps have the same flaws - Omaha Beach comes to mind...

 

[Maizel]

First of all, I haven't played beta. I'm just a RO gamer with decent memory and a bit of (I hope so) reason.

What's the point of this topic? I think many RO maps have flawed design.
Anyone remembers a Kranyi Oktyabr map? The one with Petrol Yard, Central something, Garage and Assembly hall? First 2 objectives were sniper's heaven, and basically favored rifles. In the garage and assembly hall fighting the rifle was much less useful and SMGs dominated the battlefield.
Some maps, like Danzig just simply favored close combat. Riflemen had some places to use their superior range, but it was mostly CC map. Same with Pavlov's House in RO.

This was a flawed design, which basically made certain weapons dominate, while not allowing to use the others at their full potential.

Now, I read about Grain Elevator map - first long range combat THEN smg heaven. Same as Krasnyi, the same design flaw.
Look at (nearly) any of the better Darkest Hour maps. Stoumont, Raids, Hurtgenwald, Hurtgen Village etc. etc. All of them allow both SMGs and rifles to shine. Why? Because there is not enough cover and obstacles to totally block the rifles ability to get kills, yet there are enough buildings to clear and enough routes for smgs to get close enough.
Basically, in Darkest Hour I frequently have a dillema, whether to choose rifle or smg, because both are useful. And mind you, SMGs in Darkest Hour are much more deadly than in standard Red Orchestra, so they probably are similiar in performance to the smgs in RO:HOS.


To sum it up: I think that a more open-style map, which allows multiple paths through the city, includes both open spaces and buildings is much more fun than an Krasnyi Style rifle phase -> smg phase style of maps.

I agree. While we haven;'t played all maps yet, so far I;m not impressed with the layout.

I know some of them are remakes of old RO1 maps, but with the increased walking speed, the reborn SMG's and the overall flow of the gane, you can't compare those to their RO1 originals.

I hope the unseen maps play better. Otherwise my hope is is custom maps.

 

[evulclown]

I am looking forward to a map on par with Stoumont, it is easily one of my favourite. I always flanked far out in the fields and got behind the enemy, it felt like a proper battlefield not some artificial "you have 3 routes to choose plz" map

With a village in the middle to fight over and a BUNCH of routes to flank.. it's open... there's fields all round if you want to bother running out there and crawling... I hate playing bottlenecked maps or maps that feel like the Dev is going "lol you've gotta run here".

Overly cluttered maps are assine and the result of environment artists over placing cover that they think should be there, but in reality was not...

A tonn of work's gone into these maps though and from a modelling perspective they've done a great job making the assets. But it feels a little too "dev designed" and artificial (yeah these are remake maps of RO 1, but still)

 

[Drecks]

First of all, I haven't played beta. I'm just a RO gamer with decent memory and a bit of (I hope so) reason.

What's the point of this topic? I think many RO maps have flawed design (and some ROHOS maps MAY have similiar flaws).
Anyone remembers a Kranyi Oktyabr map? The one with Petrol Yard, Central something, Garage and Assembly hall? First 2 objectives were sniper's heaven, and basically favored rifles. In the garage and assembly hall fighting the rifle was much less useful and SMGs dominated the battlefield.
Some maps, like Danzig just simply favored close combat. Riflemen had some places to use their superior range, but it was mostly CC map. Same with Pavlov's House in RO.

This was a flawed design, which basically made certain weapons dominate, while not allowing to use the others at their full potential.

Now, I read about Grain Elevator map - first long range combat THEN smg heaven. Same as Krasnyi, the same design flaw.
Look at some of the better Darkest Hour maps. Stoumont, Raids, Hurtgenwald, Hurtgen Village, Juno Beach etc. etc. All of them allow both SMGs and rifles to shine. Why? Because there is not enough cover and obstacles to totally block the rifles ability to get kills, yet there are enough buildings to clear and enough routes for smgs to get close enough.
Basically, in Darkest Hour I frequently have a dillema, whether to choose rifle or smg, because both are useful. And mind you, SMGs in Darkest Hour are much more deadly than in standard Red Orchestra, so they probably are similiar in performance to the smgs in RO:HOS.


To sum it up: I think that a more open-style map, which allows multiple paths through the city, includes both open spaces with only some cover (which to some extent are unavoidable but can be crossed with help of some skill and smoke grenades) and smaller buildings that are defensive strongpoints and places for smgs to shine (the buildings/trenches and open areas are usually nicely mixed up) is much more fun than an Krasnyi-like rifle phase -> smg phase style of maps.


P.S.: of course many DH maps have the same flaws - Omaha Beach comes to mind...

Isn't it the problem you decide to get in a close combat area, armed with a rifle ? You took Krasny Oktajbr and Danzig as an example. While both where suited for smg and rifle. It all depend how you play it. Its not smart to enter the Axis HQ in Danzig with your Mosin Nagant, but maybe thats the reason you play this game with more people in your team and some of them have an SMG. So your teammates would attack it and you with the mosin could cover the long street to pop the reinforcements heading to the Axis HQ from Axis spawn.

Same with Langermarkt. You with the Mosin could shoot from the windows
while your SMG teammembers headed for the capzone. Once there you with the Mosin could move on to the bombed house to pop some Axis heading to reconquer the Langermarkt.

Same for Krasny. Once the Garage and Constructionhall had to be taken.
Your SMG buddies could attack that area with the door to the little room overlooking the garage. Once taken you and your mosin could use that room to cover the garage. Our you could cover the outside area to take down flankin Axis.

Off course fighting inside a builiding is easier with the SMG. It's not a flawn in design. It just requires logical thinking when armed with a rifle.

 

[Krator]

Know what? I've played those maps for very, very long. They had certain rifle-friendly points, but they were heavily close-combat based. Hell, Langer Markt had so many cover that I frequently found myself within 1m from the enemy.
And I was succesfull with kar98k on Kranyi. Even indoors. But the map OVERAL was extremely smg friendly and as a rifleman I had to use lots of thinking to get around bottlenecks and be lucky enough to only meet some noobs during my long flanking maneuver. Which, mind you, allowed me to shoot at people which were 30m from me anyways, just looking the other direction

And any smart player with SMG can totally avoid rifle fire both on Krasnyi and on Danzig. GL at playing rifle against them.

Compare that to DH, where at the same time, at the same place BOTH smg and rifle shine. They don't have to go to 1-2 specific points, which are all about camping really. In DH you can sprint from cover to cover with your rifle and fire from 100-150m at the enemy while the smgs get closer. Your examples are only supporting my point: while SMG can move freely around the map and score tons of kills, all the riflemen can do is sit in a few specific spots and pray for someone to show up. And 1 stupid smoke grenade can screw this plan up anyways, since the whole "assault path" is like what, 20m wide?



To sum it up - on every RO map you can find some kind of open area. But that doesn't mean that this map is all of a sudden rifle friendly.
I'm not really a "balance" fan. I just love when maps allow me to find positions, to attack in multiple ways and be effective with every weapon in the process. More open/mixed enviroment map design suits me much better, but some RO maps are either close combat or longer range friendly. And I want both. The final part of the Smolensk Stalemate is to some extent what I'm talking about - you fight over village ruins yet both rifles and smgs score kills. Odessa in some parts is good too.

 

[Drecks]

I like the discussion. It might lead to some nice ideas.

 

[Krator]

To be honest, I think you are right that you can use rifle/smg effectively on every map. But the effort to do it/area where you can be effective are both very limited on some maps.
Now how do I understand good rifle/smg synergy:
there's a house full of germans shooting out of the windows and german defensive line. There are some trees, some ruins, and a bit of field around/in front of it.
As a rifleman you can find cover and shoot guys in the windows. You can also try to flank and shoot the reinforcments approaching the house down, or just shoot people in trenches. As a smg you can try to flank the house and enter it/enter trenches/cut down reinforcements (smoke is useful). And as soon as SMG players clear the house, you can as a rifleman enter the house and start shooting germans around it using windows.

Unfortunately on some RO maps you don't have much choice - because whole map is a one big building (krasnyi), the whole map is a trenches maze (Lyeskrovy), or buildings-maze with nearly no open terrain (and when there is some open terrain, nobody uses it) - (like Tcherkassy, but this is just a meat-grinder map).
I hope there's a big change in the map design coming up with RO2.

 

[Jingcha]

First of all, I haven't played beta.

well then speak after you play it.

 

[Krator]

hi there junior member.


RO2 uses some RO maps. RO2 map designers have lots in common with RO map disagners (TWI is TWI, that's something new, right?) But yeah, I need to play beta to see that appartments is SMG heaven. Its not like there are 20 threads on how good smgs are on this map.
If you can't draw conclusions from such obvious facts doesn't mean that others also can't do this.

I don't have to touch the hot iron to tell that its hot. And we also have lots of youtube videos and even devs description of the new map is:
" featuring long range infantry fighting outdoors and room to room close quarters combat inside"


So now, please, make a point or don't write anything.

BTW have you played Darkest Hour? If not, I can use exactly the same argument as you did. As you can see, this argument is pretty invalid, unless someone is an idiot. And I assume you're not. Right?

 

[Graphic]

It wouldn't be as interesting if each stage of each map favored all weapon classes equally.

It spices things up and forces the teams to change their tactics.

 

[dextronaut]

This was a flawed design, which basically made certain weapons dominate, while not allowing to use the others at their full potential.

Thats how war is. In some areas a rifle is the best choice and in other areas its the SMG. Luckily you can pick up weapons you find or just continue to QQ.

 

[Krator]

Read my example. Rifle guy does different things than SMG guy, but they both have fun at the same time at the same part of the map. And it's a game, so why make it less fun for half of the players for 50% of the time?
Play some better DH maps and then tell me it doesn't feel like "war" with all those guns blazing
When I choose rifle (and believe me, I frequently do, because smg is just too easy) I want to play it like a rifleman, not drop it, pick up smg and start assaulting.

Or, maybe simplier: what is wrong with my proposal of designing maps in such way, that everyone may have fun during whole match, not 1st/2nd objective and then turn into cannon fodder.

 

[the_Monk]

It wouldn't be as interesting if each stage of each map favored all weapon classes equally.

It spices things up and forces the teams to change their tactics.

^^^ This


@ OP
..and while my forum join date says 2011, my RO purchase date reads 2006.

 

[the_Monk]

Or, maybe simplier: what is wrong with my proposal of designing maps in such way, that everyone may have fun during whole match, not 1st/2nd objective and then turn into cannon fodder.

Because in war........sometimes that's all you are.......fodder.

 

[BigMorgan]

I hope the unseen maps play better. Otherwise my hope is is custom maps.

This isn't directed to you at all, Maizel, but what you say there is reason enough for everyone crying about the level design on the two maps we've actually played to just stop.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

considering the reworking of smgs( no more crazy recoil ) I'm not sure if this will be a problem.

I also never viewed that as a design flaw, there were often other ways on those maps that allowed smg'ers to get closer you just had to use them. Rifles were also still VERY potent in cqb, sure you only had time for one or two shots, but even the knee was likely to be a 1 hit kill. ( or atleast slow them down so your mate can get him )

In fact actually I've just thought of something, you'r missing the point. What is required on these maps is teamwork, riflemen & smg's working together to acomplish the objective, and I dont mind at all that TWI ballanced the game so that a little bit of teamwork could win against lots of uncoordinated enemies

 

[Luckless]

Wait wait wait,... So, needing to think about what you're doing in different parts of a map, based on what weapon you have, is a 'design flaw'?


I have been over every inch of Apartments that I've been able to find, and I've carried a rifle everywhere I've gone. (I've also gone through most of it with an SMG, and a good chunk with a machine gun.)

I have yet to find a place that I'm really feeling that I can't do something effectively no matter what weapon I have.

Also, I make sure to try to bring friends with me.


You say you haven't played the Beta, so in pointing out these so called 'design flaws', have you remembered to consider the new cover system?

 

[Krator]

Of course, teamwork.
What I'm trying to say is: I prefer a map where rifleman can aid the assault guys in getting to their "comfort area" over a map where riflemen are useful during taking the 1st and 2nd objective and then they are basically massacred by smg wielding players. Its not fun and it doesn't really make sense from tactical point of view.
And yes, you can hip-shoot but for some reason I was able to kill half a german team on Zhitomir just by running on ground floor and spamming ppsh full-auto (yes, element of surprise, but mostly 900rpm and drum mag). And Zhitomir isn't nearly as bad as Krasnyi garage/assembly fight.

On bigger, well designed maps you can have both indoors and outdoors fighting. Both long range and CQ combat. And yes, both riflemen and smg-guys are sometimes out of their comfort zone and its good. But when there's just NO comfort zone for riflemen, the map isn't really fun. If they added additional long approach on Krasnyi with open ground and only some cover, I guess that map would be pretty fun to play with kar98k. But there's no such thing.

 

[Oook!]

In fact actually I've just thought of something, you'r missing the point. What is required on these maps is teamwork, riflemen & smg's working together to acomplish the objective, and I dont mind at all that TWI ballanced the game so that a little bit of teamwork could win against lots of uncoordinated enemies

This really is the best of both worlds.

Although I didn't play RO1 nearly as much as some of the other forum members I quite clearly remember maps in both the regular game and DH favouring either rifles or subs.

To extend the point I have been playing multiplayer FPS since TFC first came out and cannot think of an example of a game where one gun type was not favoured on certain maps/parts of maps.

 

[JoshuaC]

I have no problem using a rifle in cqc.