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The Vietnam War

Only after it has played all the episodes on PBS, perhaps. It is for sale, however: https://shop.pbs.org/ken-burns?N=2557518087&Nrpp=28&No=0&Nr=product.active:1

I watched this war unfold closely. One couldn't help but follow it in the early '70's. It was headline news every night. I still had to register for the draft in 1974 even though the last combat troops pulled out in March of 1973. Tonight's episode brought to light things that I was unware of.

Though there are those that are giving Burns their usual flak about cherry picking facts and dramatic use of music, I've found the three episodes thus far to be balanced and informative. (I am NOT a bleeding heart liberal either, mind you.) Music defined my generation. You give me a song, and I can tell you what was going on at the time. So using that as a complaint falls upon deaf ears. I've heard all the usual "facts" that we were given at the time. To hear some new (hushed) facts and different views from 'the usual suspects', was quite refreshing.

One comment made by one of the men that served (and I think I read that 70% of those that fought volunteered) was (paraphrased),"I think ours was the last generation that thought their government didn't lie to us."
 
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Floyd;n2305421 said:
One comment made by one of the men that served (and I think I read that 70% of those that fought volunteered) was (paraphrased),"I think ours was the last generation that thought their government didn't lie to us."
That simplification omits the whole anti war movement and the division of the american society on that matter. If there had been enough believers, no draft would have been necessary. But yes, after the golf of tonkin, vietnam war and watergate etc. even the hardcore believers might have started to question their government. Anyways thanks for recommending that show.
 
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Gladius;n2305733 said:
That simplification omits the whole anti war movement and the division of the american society on that matter. If there had been enough believers, no draft would have been necessary. But yes, after the golf of tonkin, vietnam war and watergate etc. even the hardcore believers might have started to question their government. Anyways thanks for recommending that show.
First: At the time combat troops were being sent into Vietnam and for quite some time, there was no anti-war movement. The anti-war movement didn't really get start growing any legs until late 1967. There were a lot of civil rights issues preoccupying the nation in the mid-'60s.

Second: I was off by a few percentage points it would appear. ( but not many). A much larger percentage were drafted for WWII.
Just some interesting facts to consider.

DRAFTEES VS. VOLUNTEERS...
  • 25% (648,500) of total forces in country were draftees. (66% of U.S. armed forces members were drafted during WWII.
  • Draftees accounted for 30.4% (17,725) of combat deaths in Vietnam.
  • Reservists killed: 5,977
  • National Guard: 6,140 served: 101 died.
  • Total draftees (1965 - 73): 1,728,344.
  • Actually served in Vietnam: 38%
  • Marine Corps Draft: 42,633.
  • Last man drafted: June 30, 1973.
Source: http://history-world.org/vietnam_war_statistics.htm


That is the thing with Vietnam and one reason I've found the series to be so informative. The mis-information that abounded from all-sides was absolutely astounding. I think this series does a good job of pulling info from all sides without necessarily raising ire or promoting any one view. A case in point was John Kerry's April, 1971 speech on behalf of the VVAW to the Hearing on the Vietnam War chaired by Senator Fulbright. That part of his speech that many veterans took exception to, was touched upon (rather than sensationalized as would be the accepted norm today) and an opposing view presented.

I don't know how old you are, Gladius, or where you hail from so I can't know your paradigm of or life experience within the US. Having been born in 1956, I can identify with the sentiment of the paraphrase I made above. It was from Karl Marlantes, I believe.

W.D. Ehrhart (also a 'contributor' to the series) said the following in an interview Wednesday, "It never occurred to me that my government would be wrong, that my government would misuse and abuse me, that my government would lie to me. None of that stuff ever occurred to me. So my experience in Vietnam was extremely disturbing." He was interviewed by Novick in 2011. He goes on to say, "I rode around in the back of a flatbed truck in Perkasie with a bunch of my classmates, singing Barry Goldwater campaign songs 'cause Lyndon Johnson was not tough enough on those Communists."

'He teaches an elective class on the U.S. and Vietnam -- 'not a course on the Vietnam War,' he said. It starts in ancient China - but for many of his other students, some of whom weren't born or were in 'diapers' at the time of the 9/11 attacks, the Vietnam War "might well have been the Peloponnesian Wars." '

Source: http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news...-20170914.html
 
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Floyd;n2305770 said:
First: At the time combat troops were being sent into Vietnam and for quite some time, there was no anti-war movement. The anti-war movement didn't really get start growing any legs until late 1967. There were a lot of civil rights issues preoccupying the nation in the mid-'60s.

Floyd;n2305770 said:
I don't know how old you are, Gladius, or where you hail from so I can't know your paradigm of or life experience within the US. Having been born in 1956, I can identify with the sentiment of the paraphrase I made above.

My point was that it is a simplification that your own subjective perspective reflects the whole "generation". There was a lot going on in the 60's and the opposition to an involvement in vietnam that was critically questioning the government even started before the US entered the war. First demonstrations against the escalation towards vietnam were 1964. I suppose what you mean is that during the war it became common knoweledge how much the government was lying. But to say that there was an entire generation not aware of those lies is too simpliefied.
 
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Gladius;n2305778 said:
My point was that it is a simplification that your own subjective perspective reflects the whole "generation". There was a lot going on in the 60's and the opposition to an involvement in vietnam that was critically questioning the government even started before the US entered the war. First demonstrations against the escalation towards vietnam were 1964. I suppose what you mean is that during the war it became common knoweledge how much the government was lying. But to say that there was an entire generation not aware of those lies is too simpliefied.

The biggest opposition came after the Tet offensive. The scale of the anti war protests in 1964 were smaller than the WW2 protests when they first joined. And pearl harbour was obviously real.

With Tonkin everyone involved thought they were being attacked. They saw things that looked like torpedo's on their sonar, saw funny lights in the distance so started firing. Reporter they were under attack. What do you think the US government is going to do? Sit there and wait just so they make 100% sure? Which could potentially cost lives. No. They would act on it. After they declared all our war they couldn't simply "retract" that. It was only after it happened people started questioning if it was real or not. But it was too late. They had already made air strikes and made promises to the south half an hour after the first reports.

With Tet that was really bad timing. The US were winning. The VC launched one final all or nothing attack on southern forces. Which the media jumped on for views and paper sales. Tet was a tactical failure for the north and it wiped out the VC completely. After it was cleaned up they only had the NVA to worry about.

The war was fought in the complete wrong way. The US thought that if they killed all the communists then the south all by themselves could go north and take all of Vietnam. Tet put an end to that. Even though during Tet large numbers of northern troops were killed or
captured.

The quicker way to end the war was if the US just went straight north into Hanoi. Naval invasion. Conventional war of territory gained. But fear of China and the soviets meant they never did that. Even though it's possible they could have got away with it. Given the rifts between the communist states.
 
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Well, lets be literal, Gladius. Of course nothing is 100%. What a safe statement that is. Hardly worth taking the time to post that little tidbit of information. Certainly impossible to refute. You win. ;)

Hindsight is always 20/20. To everyone else who doesn't know everything that went on before/during/after the war (whether you lived during the times or were born after 2000), it has thus far been a very interesting and informative series. One left to go.

I haven't tried, but I think the whole series can be streamed from: http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/episodes/
Its over 18 hours of video....
 
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