WWAUT - The Road To Nov 18th

[eckojay]

I'm not too keen on the idea of the survivalist perk. The name struck me as something interesting like a trapper or a guy who scavenges zed weapons. But in the end the idea for this perk sounds more like a bland, balancing nightmare.

If we've spent well over a year trying to balanced the existing, well-defined perks, how on earth could you EVER properly balance a perk who can randomly pick and choose from the existing skills and weapons.

I would recommend not rushing to get this perk out the door and really re-thinking what "survivalist" or the 10th perk overall will end up being. People wont kill you for releasing this game without the 10th perk. They will, however, not be pleased with you putting the seal of approval on this messy perk and calling it a day just so you can meet that November deadline.

 

[hal-]

Oh come on, it's not that simple at all. Do you think men at war would just walk from a long distance straight into enemy fire? No, they adapt to the situation. This is what many games lack these days, enemies don't adapt to the situation. Yes I know you can't compare games to life, but this is AI we are talking about. The perfect thing would be if they can adapt to any map in question.

No more for me to say on this as I already made my point clear.

Sorry to quote you after you dropped out of the conversation. I just wanted to add this in case anyone else were reading and had similar thoughts.

The game AI is just not there yet. Most of the really cool ambushes and unexpected behaviors you see in modern games is scripted -- it's just hidden very cleverly. In KF2, we're talking about simple pawns that swarm the player. They just aren't able to drop them into different arenas and have them adjust coded behaviors accordingly.

Perhaps some future game in the series will be able to scan a custom level and then build its own zed list, spawn rates, and make speed adjustments. That would be terrific for the longevity of the game.

 

[jd641]

Sorry to quote you after you dropped out of the conversation. I just wanted to add this in case anyone else were reading and had similar thoughts.

The game AI is just not there yet. Most of the really cool ambushes and unexpected behaviors you see in modern games is scripted -- it's just hidden very cleverly. In KF2, we're talking about simple pawns that swarm the player. They just aren't able to drop them into different arenas and have them adjust coded behaviors accordingly.

Perhaps some future game in the series will be able to scan a custom level and then build its own zed list, spawn rates, and make speed adjustments. That would be terrific for the longevity of the game.

Just to add a small detail: the zed rely on pathing, if you make a map without any pathing nodes or scripted directions for the zed to follow, the zed will just stand there and ignore you... so hal is 100% right, the AI isn't even close to what this guy wants and adapting to random events if the map maker didn't think about it ahead of time is just not possible in UE3

I think in UE4 there was some sort of free roaming AI being worked on, something that didn't need to follow bot pathing and it could freely navigate around the map. I can't remember if it was UE4 or something else but I do hope something like that is eventually standard.

 

[judgejman]

Nerf FB and it is already worthless unless in a big open custom map. Who cares, becoming a zerk game only at this rate. Sounds like survivalist will be the only perk people play once leveled up. Can get weapons you like. Can you choose skills you like also?? If you can heal like zerk, shoot like sharp, help like medic you would be a stud.

 

[johnsonpk]

give firebug more ammo if you TWI are going to do this Nerf

give T3 T4 1000 ammo pls

 

[Kicked]

The firebug needs more damage not less. :/

 

[Ramare]

You know what? I just recently bothered to play a Suicidal game in multiplayer for once and after losing two or three rounds after only a couple waves due to the utterly ridiculous spike in difficulty between Hard and Suicidal I switched to Firebug and our squad won that very next round. Why? Because, suddenly, getting swamped by trash zeds and beat into the ground was a non-issue because I was able to single-handedly kill all the trash that got near the squad, and thus no one ended up surrounded and instantly mushed by sprinting Clots and SoniCrawlers.

That said, I think that reducing the Firebug weapon's base damage by a bit is fine. Medium zeds die perhaps a little too fast, small zeds melt instantly and big zeds take a pretty decent amount of damage as well (although if you have to kill them entirely by yourself it is kind of an issue). What you might want to do, though, is give big zeds and bosses a bit less resistance/more weakness to fire and microwave damage to compensate, which is most likely what everyone is actually worried over and complaining about. At least, it better be since killing a Gorefast in 0.5 seconds rather than 0.4 seconds isn't a big enough deal to get up in arms about.

 

[Escadin]

You know what? I just recently bothered to play a Suicidal game in multiplayer for once and after losing two or three rounds after only a couple waves due to the utterly ridiculous spike in difficulty between Hard and Suicidal I switched to Firebug and our squad won that very next round. Why? Because, suddenly, getting swamped by trash zeds and beat into the ground was a non-issue because I was able to single-handedly kill all the trash that got near the squad, and thus no one ended up surrounded and instantly mushed by sprinting Clots and SoniCrawlers.

That's just a testament of how low FB's skill ceiling is and nothing else. FB is outclassed by most other perks if they're played well and it only has such a damage spike because after a year of Napalm not doing anything they finally made it work AND overpowered as hell. Fixing that is fine - nerfing the damage in addition is probably not, especially when you consider FB is still plagued by other serious bugs and has by far the weakest grenade in the game since they removed the one skill which it was balanced around.

 

[random]

I kind of agree with Escadin, also i don't feel that at this point the FB is strong or weak, just all over the place, and understandably so, since it had one of the biggest changes in the beta, it was almost a complete reset, so i guess it needs a few more iterations.

All that said i'm more interesting in it getting an interesting gameplay type, balance can come eventually.

 

[TheUndying]

That's just a testament of how low FB's skill ceiling is and nothing else. FB is outclassed by most other perks if they're played well and it only has such a damage spike because after a year of Napalm not doing anything they finally made it work AND overpowered as hell. Fixing that is fine - nerfing the damage in addition is probably not, especially when you consider FB is still plagued by other serious bugs and has by far the weakest grenade in the game since they removed the one skill which it was balanced around.

Problem is, with FB's weaponry there is no really high skill ceiling apart from arguably the MWG; which doesn't work at all right now. + I don't mind a "simple", easy perk tied to killing lots of trash quickly; not everyone wants to play Gunslinger-like in every match.
Other problem: DoT is useless, especially on HoE. This COULD be fixed by reducing zed speeds on higher difficulties, which has been discussed countless times here but never addressed by the devs (and which could potentially break the game balance, though I don't think so), but with zeds being this fast and still attacking while burning when right in front of a player it just makes this particular skill choice useless.
Is the insta-melt OP? Kinda. But it feels adequate, look at how quickly a Zerker can dismantle groups without problems.

Firebug was in a decent place right now; MWG needed a fix which it still isn't getting.
We'll see how it plays out but I'm not too optimistic about this. KF1's Firebug felt alot better.

 

[random]

^
I think it would be interesting for the firebug to require a type of skill more in line with position and timing, more tactical and less mechanical like GS.

Dot might not be useless, it just depends on the actual times and dmg per tick.

About speeds, i think it's too much part of the game by now, and it's not so bad by itself, it's the crazy spawns that bug me, also while zeds can get to you fast it's not so bad once they get to you, i mean not many of them attack while moving, or do a lot of hits, most of the time you can just backpedal a lot of dmg.

 

[FoolishNinja]

Shouldnt there be a update this week? Did i read it wrong?

 

[imnrk]

Shouldnt there be a update this week? Did i read it wrong?

They said they expect to see one this week.

 

[Escadin]

Problem is, with FB's weaponry there is no really high skill ceiling apart from arguably the MWG; which doesn't work at all right now. + I don't mind a "simple", easy perk tied to killing lots of trash quickly; not everyone wants to play Gunslinger-like in every match.
Other problem: DoT is useless, especially on HoE. This COULD be fixed by reducing zed speeds on higher difficulties, which has been discussed countless times here but never addressed by the devs (and which could potentially break the game balance, though I don't think so), but with zeds being this fast and still attacking while burning when right in front of a player it just makes this particular skill choice useless.
Is the insta-melt OP? Kinda. But it feels adequate, look at how quickly a Zerker can dismantle groups without problems.

Firebug was in a decent place right now; MWG needed a fix which it still isn't getting.
We'll see how it plays out but I'm not too optimistic about this. KF1's Firebug felt alot better.

I don't think it is in a decent place. It's in a place where it has the potential to become decent but it's not there yet. Just to reiterate the 3 biggest issues besides low skill ceiling and mindless gameplay which will still be there after the patch from what we currently know:

• motolv is nothing without flaritov or any skill to compensate (Ground Fire does NOT)
• you don't deal dot damage unless you pick either of the skills improving it (I mean at all. 0. It's bugged)
• your t4 has lost it's appeal

And then there are definitely ways to raise the skill ceiling. For example, they could stick to their traditions and balance high splash damage with low max ammo forcing players to make strategic choices. It's not a difficult choice but far better than the mindless spam. A simple way to implement this would be to reduce splash damage like they plan but make 'Bring the heat' (lvl5) increase it back to what it was. At the same time, the other level 5 skill would be changed to bring firebug's max ammo count back to what it is now which they also reduced. So you have to choose between enough ammo for the wave or high strategic burst. It would also adress the fact that a perk with so much passive reload speed bonus doesn't need a +mag size skill.

There are so many things they could do to achieve a higher skill ceiling...

 

[infntnub]

First visit to this board in some time...

Around the time I took a break from the game was during the initial FB nerf (when shrapnel went from OP to barely usable).

Now I come to find it's been made even worse? I don't know if this is a case where the perk was way more powerful than TWI ever wanted and we all got used to it, but wow...

I'm shocked to see it take another blow.

I agree with another poster early in the thread - it was already becoming rare to see someone want to play the perk. May as well hammer that last nail in the coffin.

Flaratov had also been a personal favorite... gone now.

Disappointing..

 

[flashn00b]

While i understand the frustration regarding the new perk, I can't help but feel as if a fair share of zerker mains will switch over to the Survivalist, due to the perk being the closest thing to a Zerker with guns.

 

[oldschool]

I like the idea of the new perk. I'm hoping there wont be any major issues though once its rolled out that would effect release time. More weapons please! Shields are interesting but the mechanics and animations are a mystery to me as how they would work in game. I can't see them being fluid in relation to switching from firing weapons to raising shield in defense, then trying to reload weapon...I hope it implemented properly.

​

 

[Ramare]

I like the idea of the new perk. I'm hoping there wont be any major issues though once its rolled out that would effect release time. More weapons please! Shields are interesting but the mechanics and animations are a mystery to me as how they would work in game. I can't see them being fluid in relation to switching from firing weapons to raising shield in defense, then trying to reload weapon...I hope it implemented properly.

Are you talking about the shield mechanics in regards to SWAT (hopefully) eventually getting a shield? Because I imagine a shield and melee weapon combo would work just fine, since Chivalry: Medieval Warfare did it well and KF2 is also made in Unreal Engine, especially because a shield and melee weapon combo can be made as one singular entity (most likely the way it's happening in KF2) and not two separate entities working in unison (which is (sort-of) how it worked in Chivalry). Also, judging from my previous experience with riot shields in video games (see also Rainbow Six: Vegas 2), you can totally fire guns while holding the shield up but it hurts your precision and accuracy from both an in-game mechanical perspective and real-life subjective experience.

As for reloading guns while using a riot shield that will logically only work with one-handed weapons, which means the MP5, P90 and Vector most likely won't be able to be reloaded while using the shield (although they could logically be fired one-handed with varying amounts of success) which means that the MP7 and the CQC Training 9mm could end up getting more love.

If this is the case they might also end up making one or two one-hand friendly SMGs for the SWAT, like the Uzi for example. Maybe those could even be used guns akimbo if you opt not use use a shield, because why not?

 

[Serious]

I've got to chime in here and cast my vote against nerfing the Firebug. I think it's closer to the original KF1 feel right now and if anything the range needs to be extended. I think it's stupid to reduce the damage and if it is truly "OP" then we would be seeing a whole lot of people using it. Instead, it's one of the least used perks I see... and I play a lot. Killing zeds instantly at close range was always the case in KF1.
I just don't get it. Did some VIPs whine about it being OP and so you nerf it?
I mean seriously, you can track wins/losses and you should track how often people play firebug because it's not that common. Instead, Fleshpounds desperately need less resistance to everything other than explosives. It's extremely hard to kill them with any other perk besides demo. I've had to change roles multiple times because 1 FP will kill nearly the whole time. Maybe no one feels like being demo? They shouldn't be helpless...
On the note of smart changes, doors need to respawn and not have a max health... without a demo putting a trap on it whomever foolish enough to keep welding it will just about die. when it randomly bursts open. I RARELY see anyone welding doors since this game came out. If people want to camp, let them camp. Support's fixing doors is progress, but there's just no time to keep fixing doors and that quickly gets boring. Especially when keeping them welded does no good and they break open anyway. If we want doors back it's non-stop welding and no time having fun. Those who oppose camping can play with their buddies and never weld doors, that simple. The ONLY reason I play so much is for the custom maps. Official maps are far too open and I get so tired of kiting.

KF1 was extremely popular and if Tripwire wants KF2 to be as successful they need to observe how all those faithful players like to play!
If anything, give us a classic game mode so that we can choose.

 

[infntnub]

If anything, give us a classic game mode so that we can choose.

I would love to see something along those lines.