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The L.A.W. is slightly too heavy

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#41
vealck said:
Ok, now after the update further decreasing LAW weight even by one block is out of the question. That would allow carrying .44 along and this is just too overpowered.
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Decreasing LAW's weight only by 1 block will allow carrying .44 only without pipes. This is a fair trade-off imo. Or just stick with machete, but be able to carry pipes. Keep in mind, that grenade demo can hold all of them: .44+pipes+M79+M32. And LAW is not so great as it seems to be: need 2 rockets + some team help to defeat Scrake or Fleshpound, but M32 can solo kill FP without a problem.

Sacrifice armor for an extra block is not a bad idea.

Increasing M203 weight by 1 block will makes impossible to hold M203+M32+pipes, so most of the players will choose .44+pipes+M79+M32 - in the good team demo doesn't shoot bullets often anyway. To balance it to the Commando's M4, I suggest to cut out half of total bullet count of M4/M203 (not the magazine size!) leaving the same weight of 6 blocks for both of them, so you can choose between scope and double amount of ammo or attached nade launcher. Commando should get same bonuses (including Stalker counter) when using M4 with attached M203.
 
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#42
poosh said:
Decreasing LAW's weight only by 1 block will allow carrying .44 only without pipes. This is a fair trade-off imo. Or just stick with machete, but be able to carry pipes. Keep in mind, that grenade demo can hold all of them: .44+pipes+M79+M32. And LAW is not so great as it seems to be: need 2 rockets + some team help to defeat Scrake or Fleshpound, but M32 can solo kill FP without a problem.
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Before you start another part of the arguement just think what the M32, M79 and LAW jobs are. Are they all ment to do the same thing? No.

M79 = To clear small groups of specimens.
M32 = To do mass amount of explosive damage in a SHORT amount of time.
LAW = To do a huge amount of damage in a large RADIUS.

Please don't forget the meanings of each of the weapons. I have given all the reasons why not to make that change. The .44 magnum has how much ammo compared to any pistol? It has loads and will make the demo a little too powerful if you give it such a usefulness at close combat. The disadvantage of a demo is so it is almost defencless at close range so why give it that advantage honestly?

If you can give me clear/real proof of why it should drop, drop this arguement because so far there is no real reason to drop the LAW weight because people can't use it for it's real purpose and job.
 
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#43
@Flux
Even now demo can carry .44 with M79+M32+Pipes. But LAW-demo can't afford even a machete. How can machete overpower demo?! Do you really think he will run in front and kill clots while there is no big stuff to shoot with the LAW? Machete sometimes is needed for a self defense, to kill some small zed that passed teammates. And if teammates suck and don't protect demo, he could trade pipes for a .44 - fair trade imo. And it's not overpowers demo, but just opposite - lack of pipes makes entire team weaker.

LAW is not so great, if your team is bad. It's not enough with 2 rocket shots to kill single Scrake or Fleshpound (lvl6 demo, 6p HoE), and usually there is no time to make third. You are lucky if you managed to make two before they run into your face. Solo killing FP with M32 is a peace of cake. And you can also solo kill Scrake if you really need to too - with a help of hand grenades and/or pipe.

LAW is good in friends-only pro-games. Decreasing its weight by 1 could make it useful in pub games too.
 
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#46
FluX said:
Basically that means a casual person can carry them. A real rocket launcher a vehicle or a stand is needed to use them.
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wrong. The M72 LAW (Light Anti-Tank Weapon, emphasis on light) also referred to as the Light Anti-Armor Weapon or LAW as well as LAWS Light Anti-Armor Weapons System) is a portable one-shot 66 mm unguided rocket launcher.
 
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#47
FluX said:
Basically that means a casual person can carry them. A real rocket launcher a vehicle or a stand is needed to use them.
Click to expand...

The M72 LAW (Light Anti-Tank Weapon, emphasis on light, also referred to as the Light Anti-Armor Weapon or LAW as well as LAWS Light Anti-Armor Weapons System) is a portable one-shot 66 mm unguided rocket launcher.

they weight about 10 kg, loaded, and you can fire them standing up.
 
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#48
FluX said:
Before you start another part of the arguement just think what the M32, M79 and LAW jobs are. Are they all ment to do the same thing? No.

M79 = To clear small groups of specimens.
M32 = To do mass amount of explosive damage in a SHORT amount of time.
LAW = To do a huge amount of damage in a large RADIUS.

Please don't forget the meanings of each of the weapons. I have given all the reasons why not to make that change. The .44 magnum has how much ammo compared to any pistol? It has loads and will make the demo a little too powerful if you give it such a usefulness at close combat. The disadvantage of a demo is so it is almost defencless at close range so why give it that advantage honestly?

If you can give me clear/real proof of why it should drop, drop this arguement because so far there is no real reason to drop the LAW weight because people can't use it for it's real purpose and job.
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YOu are one of the only ones who seems to think this is a bad idea. Your reason that you keep repeating is "they don't know how to use the LAW".
Well I know how to use the LAW. I know that it has its uses, but I also know that given its extra cost and the fact that you are limited to 9mm and pipes it is a LOT less useful than M32+M79+more. Using the LAW makes you less useful as a demo man. You not only kill less zeds, but you pay more money to do so. Letting the demo carry a Revolver would not break the LAW. It would fix it. Just look at how little its used. People know its not good.
 
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#49
TheUnbeholden said:
The M72 LAW (Light Anti-Tank Weapon, emphasis on light, also referred to as the Light Anti-Armor Weapon or LAW as well as LAWS Light Anti-Armor Weapons System) is a portable one-shot 66 mm unguided rocket launcher.

they weight about 10 kg, loaded, and you can fire them standing up.
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That's what I said.
FluX said:
Basically that means a casual person can carry them.
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greenlemonade said:
YOu are one of the only ones who seems to think this is a bad idea. Your reason that you keep repeating is "they don't know how to use the LAW".
Well I know how to use the LAW. I know that it has its uses, but I also know that given its extra cost and the fact that you are limited to 9mm and pipes it is a LOT less useful than M32+M79+more. Using the LAW makes you less useful as a demo man. You not only kill less zeds, but you pay more money to do so. Letting the demo carry a Revolver would not break the LAW. It would fix it. Just look at how little its used. People know its not good.
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Ok mate tell me when it's ment to be used? I want a full description of why it should be the best and more used weapon for the game. If you really know how to use it then you know it's to kill the biggest of the zeds and/or even just he patriarch. Don't try and say I have nothing to back my point up cause i've given more proof then you have in the whole thread. Majority of the people who agree with me stay out of conversations like this because it's just another stupid thread where people try to overkill a game that is more balanced then the ideas they can give.

Here is some facts I am reading from the code this very second:
LAW damage = 950
LAW radius = 500
LAW momentum = 125,000
LAW doesn't dip after distance
LAW unperked price = 3,000

(M32/M79 share same projectile file)
M32/M79 damage = 350
M32/M79 radius = 300
M32/M79 momentum = 75,000
M32/M79 dips
M32/M79 unperked price = 2,500 / 1,250

Now you have gotten me to show complete facts I would like complete proof and facts back if you really think im wrong.
 
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#51
FluX said:
LAW damage = 950
LAW radius = 500
LAW momentum = 125,000
LAW doesn't dip after distance
LAW unperked price = 3,000

(M32/M79 share same projectile file)
M32/M79 damage = 350
M32/M79 radius = 300
M32/M79 momentum = 75,000
M32/M79 dips
M32/M79 unperked price = 2,500 / 1,250
Click to expand...

First off, the difference in momentum and "dip" is nearly worthless. It is easy to aim both weapons both near and far. I would even say a slight dip can help you place your shot.
That leaves:
Damage, Price and Radius, right?



Damage: LAW 950/rocket. M32 350/Grenade
The LAW looks like the clear winner but remember that each rocket costs
 
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#53
I've got a better solution: we just don't spawn with that pesky pistol of 1 weight.

I miss the days of the L.A.W. as a Support Specialist weapon where, when playing with my community, we would all save up before the Patriarch and each buy one. With the reduced ammo they're all but useless to non-Demos.

I also rep'd the OP based solely on his second point and how in-depth it was.
 
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#54
Personally, I think the LAW is underated and underpowered for such a huge rocket launcher. If its only going to be used for both Support and Demo,(Demo should have less weight on the LAW per level, 1 block per level, leaving atleast 9 BLOCKS for a Demo. Supports though should not have this problem with the LAW for they get 19 blocks at level frakking 3.) Supports have a better use with this weapon, even with lower ammo, they atleast have a backup weapon with them handy, as with Demos; 'BOOK IT!'. It's also not as powerful as most people say it, it does atleast the same amount of damage as the M32 MGL, which a LAW should be doing more damage seeing how it is a BLOODY ROCKET LAUNCHER; 'Now this, is a big GUN'. The Grenades and Pipe Bombs are basically last resort for this weapon, while though your spending much money on the rocket launcher, YOU CANNOT AFFORD ANY MORE PIPE BOMBS! (List of weaponry to go with LAW if not Support 9mm, Knife, Grenades, Machete, and Pipe Bombs). The FP's cannot take any additional damage from a LAW unlike the M79GL/M32MGL. The LAW's rockets are destroyed completely by sirens attacks unlike the GL's. Reloading takes 3 seconds. THIS WEAPON NEEDS A HUGE UPGRADE.
 
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#55
PatPeter said:
I've got a better solution: we just don't spawn with that pesky pistol of 1 weight.

I miss the days of the L.A.W. as a Support Specialist weapon where, when playing with my community, we would all save up before the Patriarch and each buy one. With the reduced ammo they're all but useless to non-Demos.

I also rep'd the OP based solely on his second point and how in-depth it was.
Click to expand...

The pistol does not weigh anything. It's the grenades that weigh 1 weight block. If anything, we should have the option of filling up our grenades for 1 weight block or completely forego the grenades and have an extra weight block. As it stands in game, whether you have 0 or 5 grenades, it takes up 1 weight block regardless... which I think is kinda dumb.
 
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#56
I'm glad people are making different suggestions. It shows that many believe the LAW to be underpowered and underused.
Thanks also to Flux for your comments.

I still feel the best course of action would be slight weight reduction. The LAW isn't very versatile and costs so much, that having an extra weapon shouldn't be a problem.
 
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#57
greenlemonade said:
I'm glad people are making different suggestions. It shows that many believe the LAW to be underpowered and underused.
Thanks also to Flux for your comments.

I still feel the best course of action would be slight weight reduction. The LAW isn't very versatile and costs so much, that having an extra weapon shouldn't be a problem.
Click to expand...
I must admit it does seem rather even on the opinions but I have noticed a pattern...the modders seem to be on the don't change side and the rest are on the side to change...lol.
 
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#59
greenlemonade said:
Its not really "even" on the opinions. Most people in this thread and most people I talk to in person are in favor of some sort of LAW buff. (sorry for late reply. Ive been away from the forums for a long time.)
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I don't play with the L.A.W. long enough to formulate an opinion, still if it's like any other game it would still need testing. By both tripwire and the community. I think tripwire would do good to implement "Beta testing mutators" so the community could easily test some of the changes tripwire considers to make. Said part of the community could then give feedback here on the forums.

I think that could actually help since tripwire would get more feedback (correct one based on experience and not speculations), and then could compare it with their findings and inhouse testing. Many games today use beta test servers where select members of the community test and give feedback on planned, but unreleased updates.
 
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#60
You say the LAW can't be helped but that's not the case at all.
Most of us believe that it is not worth using over most other demo weapons due to the many reasons discussed on this thread.

The extremely minor buff suggested is to make it 1 block lighter.
You say "If you decrease the weight, you can carry other high-power weapons.", but what we are talking about is allowing the demo to carry the 44 magnum with it.

I gave a very detailed description as to why this wouldn't be overpowered a few posts up, but the short version is:
M32+M79 >/= LAW AND M32+M79=4 extra blocks LAW=1 extra block.





As for "realism in video games", there is a certain level of realism that is welcomed. A game's amount of realism should try to conform to the artistic style.
Team Fortress 2 is abstract and silly, so its lack of conformity to the laws of the natural world is fitting.

Red Orchestra's setting and style is "Realism" to go with the psydo-realistic gameplay.

Killing Floor is somewhere in between given its crazy style that belongs on the cover of a death metal album. Still notice that the weapons excluding the LAW come close to their real world counterpart's in weight.

Modern Warfare and to a lesser extent, BF3 on the other hand are poor examples of art. Despite the fact that their gameplay is highly addictive and polished, it does not fit well in their "photo-realistic" worlds. The constant blood on the screen, magic health regeneration and super human character abilities require so much suspension of disbelief, that you might as well fully commit and watch Shaolin Soccer.
 
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