Would the Scrake need higher Explosive resistance?

[DreaderVII]

I been seing this alot on Sui, a Demo just bodyshotting the Scrakes instead of trying to take them out with two aimed shots to the head along with Support/Commando tossing all of their grenades at them. This often leads to raged Scrakes without much control to the fighting.

I was thinking about suggesting a hint that would mention this, but I don't think that's enough.

Do you think increased explosive resistance would be necessary aswell? So the players would notice that their bodyshotting does nothing but rage the Scrakes?

 

[TheTCREngineer]

No, no more damage sponges. It's dumb in general to have resistances or weaknesses. A grenade is a grenade and a bullet is a bullet. Unless if you're wearing a Bomb Suit, you have no right to take 50% less damage, and this goes for the Fleshpound who resists bullets. I know they are specimens, but a backstory on how a Scrake resists explosives(genetically) would make sense. Right now what I'm seeing is a huge nude man with a yellow glowing thing on his stomach/chest take 1000 bullets but not go down and that's complete bull****. Same goes for the Scrake.

A tip after death or like in Killing Floor 1(onscreen box on the right side) that pops up when an event happens(picking up a fire axe in killing floor 1 for the first time) could be used. This could pop-up after shooting a Scrake with an explosive weapon saying "the scrake wears an explosive blocking apron that negates most potential damage that could be dealt to him. shoot at his head instead, it deals double the damage!".

 

[Pharrahnox]

I actually see very few demos go for headshots on scrakes. Even on HoE. It's a bit disappointing. But it is our responsibility as people who know the tricks to teach others so that they can get better, and potentially help to keep us alive more effectively. It would be great if the loading screen tips would be more useful. Currently they're pretty vague and only aimed at beginners. And one of them is particularly annoying: always get armour (or something like that). I see so many people (on lower difficulties) waste money on armour that they don't need when they could get a better weapon or help someone else to get a better weapon.

By the way, you can do better than 2 rpgs to the head on 6 man HoE: 1 rpg + 1 m79. I think this is with armour piercing rounds, but it doesn't require the +25% extra damage as the level 5 skill. Not only is it nicer on the ammo, but it is faster because you can swap between the weapons faster than reloading the rpg. I think there is already penalty enough for not hitting scrakes in the head. Not only do you not deal damage to the head, you also don't get the +50% extra impact damage if you're using armour piercing rounds.

 

[xmrmeow]

I agree with TCR; this game doesn't need more damage sponge zeds. I believe increasing health is the worst way to increase difficulty of killing zeds. I think increasing damage or adding new special moves is the best way to increase difficulty of zeds.

Adding new special moves or increasing damage of existing moves creates more risk in getting zeds mad, which makes killing them more difficult, but still controllable. For example, if the scrake did higher damage, people would have to be more careful about raging them because there'd be much more of a penalty if you don't kill them quickly after they rage.

That being said I think there is a good amount of shots that each zed takes to kill from every weapon and that number shouldn't really be played around with much. Health and resistance changes are ok as long as the maintain this core amount of shots to kill.

I think the amount of shots to kill each zed at max level in kf1 is closer to what I want the zeds to take than kf2 (E.G. I'm not a fan of how cbow is useless against big zeds. Also not a fan of how railgun 1hits scrake even on HOE with 6 people).

 

[taiiat]

i think the perfect way to handle this would be to make RPG's Explosive aspect actually conical(not really directly related to this but it would be so cool, and make RPG a unique Weapon rather than 'a big M79'), make it a unique Damage Type, and Scrake highly resist that type.
in the future alternate Demo Weapons Scrake could also be especially weak to. perhaps highly resistant to impact but weak to Explosion.

i approve of the intent to make Demo using an RPG seriously want to aim for the head, or consider not bothering to shoot at all.


basically, make the game super cool and diverse first, make a story later.

 

[Tagasaki]

i think the perfect way to handle this would be to make RPG's Explosive aspect actually conical(not really directly related to this but it would be so cool, and make RPG a unique Weapon rather than 'a big M79')

Huh, had that idea playing around in my head for quite some time, instead of a spherical AoE standard. Or add them both together since RPG's AoE is really small.

 

[DreaderVII]

I am against increasing hp to create bullet sponges, but I would like to have certain weapons be more effective against medium and big zeds, depending on how you use them.

In this case, I learned to fight Scrakes in CQC, to take them down and to me it's by far the most effective method, however as stated above, I rarely see this used by other Demo's, instead having to painfully clean up after they died or save them from the now angry Scrake. The other classes using explosives, Commando and Support (And Zerk), got alternative methods of handling Scrakes, that are more effective then their explosive ordnance, and thus I think there should be hints telling you that Scrakes are harder to kill with Explosives, but their head is weak to bullets/impact.

The increase in explosive resistance, in my opinion would not serve to make Scrakes tankier, since you aren't supposed to kill them with Grenades or alike anyway, but to enable you to fire a explosive weapon or grenade next to them, to get rid of pesky thrash that would make it harder for you to safely take the Scrake down. And the secondary function of it, would be for players to notice that explosives actually doesn't do much against a Scrake and so seek out a alternative way to kill them.

 

[TheTCREngineer]

As I've said, KF1 had tip boxes that tells you about a certain weapon. If a player deals grenade damage or explosive damage to the Scrake, the message box can appear saying "Scrakes resist explosives". They don't need any more resistance.

 

[notshiro]

As I've said, KF1 had tip boxes that tells you about a certain weapon. If a player deals grenade damage or explosive damage to the Scrake, the message box can appear saying "Scrakes resist explosives". They don't need any more resistance.

Kf1 scrakes didn't resist explosives. Otherwise methods indicating how effective certain weapons are against certain zeds is an interesting idea.

 

[TheTCREngineer]

Kf1 scrakes didn't resist explosives. Otherwise methods indicating how effective certain weapons are against certain zeds is an interesting idea.

I didn't imply KF1 Scrakes resist explosives, I said that if they implement it in KF2(the tip boxes from KF1) it should have a tip box saying that he does resist explosives.

What other methods is there other than shooting and seeing how long it takes? Scrakes standing still and laughing when they get hit by an explosive in the body or taunting the player? The stumble, flinch, or knockdown?

 

[Gladius]

Reading Cat's spreadsheed would be one method...

 

[TheTCREngineer]

Reading Cat's spreadsheed would be one method...

Don't think anybody who wants to enjoy the game go through some huge number spreadsheet, most would like to see it in a "bestiary" or "zed book" or a little tip on the loading screen or even ingame. I'm sick of the constant mention of a spreadsheet(no offense to simplecat). I've never had any of my friends play KF2 who immediately think "I want to look at this big spreadsheet!" they just want to enjoy shooting ZEDS. Nobody who buys this game wants to go through that crap, they just want to enjoy the game in the most basic form. It's like playing paintball or golf and some guy throws this professional guide book with the exact meter the paint ball/golf ball travels at every single velocity possible depending on the wind speed and etc. Then this friend keeps constantly mentioning the book and forcing it down the throat of a guy who just wants to enjoy playing the sport or game. This is what happens every balance update, just a change in numbers because people like to complain that the numbers aren't right.

 

[2Clicks]

Personally I think the responses here no matter how well made miss one underlying thing.... (L25) Demos are now to OP. And Sharpies ability to stun with LAR/XBow/EBR are too low.

A demo with the GL and RPG + either level 25 skills literally can wipe the floor with only minimal assist for trash clearing. While the sharpie has become next to useless in coordinating a non-demo'd team in taking down biggies safely. That is not fast but more or less without causing too much of an issue apart from someone having to ensure trash is kept at bay.

Just my 2cents of playing on certain HoE maps - namely those with long open areas. (HG, BP, Outpost etc)

 

[taiiat]

Huh, had that idea playing around in my head for quite some time, instead of a spherical AoE standard. Or add them both together since RPG's AoE is really small.

i guess it could be both sure, still having a bit of spherical. either way a conical blast is cool/unique, differentiates from the other Weapons Demo has more(rather than basically not at all), and just so happens to be more akin to reality.

but that's only indirectly related to the topic here.

 

[hotaka]

Yeah i agree with the OP. It was better when scrakes had explosive resistance. It required more tactics and team awareness to take them down safely.

 

[houngan459]

I personally like the way it is now with the scrakes. Challenging enough as it is killing the scrakes without them having to be stronger than they are.
As it is now it's possible to take down a scrake without anyone's assistance, at least in normal mode.

 

[taiiat]

It was better when scrakes had explosive resistance.

they haven't stopped resisting it.
and Scrake is 60% resistant to Explosives right this second.

 

[Chyros]

They only take 40% explosive damage as it is, when I'm playing Demo I don't bother trying to take it on, it's a waste of ammo. I leave it to the rest of the squad. Instead, I keep them free of kibbles which the Demo is much better at anyway. If they really need help and I have a good shot at him, I pump a rocket into him to accelerate the process a bit.

There's really no reason to make him EVEN MORE resistant though, why would 60% not be enough?