I really think they need to focus one half of the tree on melee weapons, tanking and movement speed and the other half into ranged weapon damage and reload/ammo caps for ranged weapons.
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Will the zerk be reworked and rebalanced so that it is fun and capable again?
- Thread starter hotaka
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Just my opinion when I say I don't like this idea. Both trees should accomodate both melee and ranged play, and include all weapons. Making a tree mainly buff nailgun/evis in certain ways...forces you to use just nailgun/evis in certain ways.
If the same skills affected all weapons you could be a ranged tank, melee tank, ranged skirmisher, melee skirmisher. Making a player be either a ranged tank or melee skirmisher/melee tank or ranged skirmisher limits options quite badly, is my thinking.
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I can see your point. But it would be easy to say a dps talent gives you let's say 5% damage with zerker melee weapons and 10% damage with ranged zerker weapons and vice versa.
I wasn't really clear I guess. My main thinking is if you want to build for melee, ranged or tank, you should be able to do so.
This latest change makes the zerker feel like a jack of all trades and a master of none but he's also kind of meh at everything.
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Nah man. The zerk already had all that stuff but it was mainly in it's passives. Now they have been cut up and removed and distributed through the skill tree. It really doesn't allow for different types of game play as you are always chained to a medic if you have one. Is far as I can see it only specializes you in taking down big zeds or trash.
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I think zerk was in need of a nerf, but I don't think it should have been done to the extent that it has been. While it might sound like it's not that bad, with some of the skills being pretty useful, the fact that the actual play-style of the game has changed since the introduction of sharpshooter has made zerk not so great. Here's why I believe this:
Big zeds are much less of a threat now. Sharpshooters, given the right conditions, can take big zeds out very quickly and with little fuss. Especially if you have to of them. The way I used to zerk being used, and the way I used it, was to protect my teammates from the big zeds. Now, tanking a big zed is just an annoyance to the sharpshooters who have to aim for a head that is moving constantly while it's swinging. You're better off staying out of its way and letting the sharpshooter(s) have an easier shot.
Another good thing that zerks could do was hold off the mobs of trash. They were great at trash clearing. But now, with the lower health and attack speed, you're better off having a commando do the trash clearing (which is great with the new update, by the way).
I used to love playing as zerk too, but now I think it's really not the best choice. I feel like I would either be a detriment to the team by making headshots harder, or just not as good as another perk in the case of clearing trash. Zerk is still useful for bosses (particularly Hans) though.
What I think the main issues are:
The swing speed is too slow. Not the time in between swings, but the time it takes from when you click your mouse button to when the swing actually impacts a zed. It makes it much harder to take scrakes out without getting hit, as there is a very small window in which you can swing and hit it without it quite making contact on you too. I've mainly tested this with the pulveriser, but the same applies for the crovel, and I think the zwei.
Both health and parry damage mitigation have been reduced. I see most zerks go with increased movement speed in favour of 150hp, and so do I. So instead of 175hp, you have 100hp. This is a huge difference, especially when you're required to get in the way of the big zeds and take some hits. With the reduction in the effectiveness of parry damage mitigation, this is simply not feasible to do for a reasonable amount of time. I personally really like the idea of having to time your parries properly for survival, as this requires more skill, and is very rewarding/satisfying. However, if you need to be fairly skilled to pull it off, you'd really hope that it would actually protect you a fair bit. I still lose about 16hp from a scrake swing that has been parried. With 100hp, that is very few swings that I can parry before I want to get the hell out of there.
For zerk to be a perk I would want to choose because it would be a benefit to the team, I think it would need parry damage mitigation increased (even if only slightly), maybe 125hp with the 25% faster movement speed, and revert back to the old swing speed. I'm fine with the actual time between swings. And I'd be fine with damage being reduced as well. We already have plenty of DPS classes, and sharpshooter and demo for actually taking out the big zeds. It's not asking for much, and I don't think it would make it OP again at all. It would just make it useful.
Big zeds are much less of a threat now. Sharpshooters, given the right conditions, can take big zeds out very quickly and with little fuss. Especially if you have to of them. The way I used to zerk being used, and the way I used it, was to protect my teammates from the big zeds. Now, tanking a big zed is just an annoyance to the sharpshooters who have to aim for a head that is moving constantly while it's swinging. You're better off staying out of its way and letting the sharpshooter(s) have an easier shot.
Another good thing that zerks could do was hold off the mobs of trash. They were great at trash clearing. But now, with the lower health and attack speed, you're better off having a commando do the trash clearing (which is great with the new update, by the way).
I used to love playing as zerk too, but now I think it's really not the best choice. I feel like I would either be a detriment to the team by making headshots harder, or just not as good as another perk in the case of clearing trash. Zerk is still useful for bosses (particularly Hans) though.
What I think the main issues are:
The swing speed is too slow. Not the time in between swings, but the time it takes from when you click your mouse button to when the swing actually impacts a zed. It makes it much harder to take scrakes out without getting hit, as there is a very small window in which you can swing and hit it without it quite making contact on you too. I've mainly tested this with the pulveriser, but the same applies for the crovel, and I think the zwei.
Both health and parry damage mitigation have been reduced. I see most zerks go with increased movement speed in favour of 150hp, and so do I. So instead of 175hp, you have 100hp. This is a huge difference, especially when you're required to get in the way of the big zeds and take some hits. With the reduction in the effectiveness of parry damage mitigation, this is simply not feasible to do for a reasonable amount of time. I personally really like the idea of having to time your parries properly for survival, as this requires more skill, and is very rewarding/satisfying. However, if you need to be fairly skilled to pull it off, you'd really hope that it would actually protect you a fair bit. I still lose about 16hp from a scrake swing that has been parried. With 100hp, that is very few swings that I can parry before I want to get the hell out of there.
For zerk to be a perk I would want to choose because it would be a benefit to the team, I think it would need parry damage mitigation increased (even if only slightly), maybe 125hp with the 25% faster movement speed, and revert back to the old swing speed. I'm fine with the actual time between swings. And I'd be fine with damage being reduced as well. We already have plenty of DPS classes, and sharpshooter and demo for actually taking out the big zeds. It's not asking for much, and I don't think it would make it OP again at all. It would just make it useful.
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maybe it'll be more Martial Artist territory ( i won't have Zweihander though.... 
), but mobility w/ the general Melee mechanics in Killing Floor 2 is what made/makes Melee very entertaining and rewarding feeling.
idunno. all i can really say as ever is that 'just more stats' is not a very interesting choice on the tree.
variety sure, but the Melee Weapons in Left4Dead are... sort've variety for variety's sake. might as well have lots of Skins at that point.
luckily.... the year 2000 or so called, and told us about the magic of Video Settings?
i'm trying to not sound like a jerk but there's lots of Video Settings already, to cover these sorts of problems.
), but mobility w/ the general Melee mechanics in Killing Floor 2 is what made/makes Melee very entertaining and rewarding feeling.idunno. all i can really say as ever is that 'just more stats' is not a very interesting choice on the tree.
while fine for the full arcade game that Left4Dead aims to be - Melee Weapons in Left4Dead are extremely similar to one another, with Melee Traces and Swing Speed being the only primary differences, as well as creating different gore effects.
variety sure, but the Melee Weapons in Left4Dead are... sort've variety for variety's sake. might as well have lots of Skins at that point.
luckily.... the year 2000 or so called, and told us about the magic of Video Settings?
i'm trying to not sound like a jerk but there's lots of Video Settings already, to cover these sorts of problems.
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With the way Berserker currently plays, I can't help but think that the most optimal strategy is to focus on trash, use off-perk weapons as your main source of kills and switch to your melee; it's faster than reloading.
Honestly, I have to wonder if bringing back the day one berserker would be considered a buff.
Honestly, I have to wonder if bringing back the day one berserker would be considered a buff.
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I think the problem lies in your L25 no longer feeling like a L25. They did it right with Commando, as let me just say how great it feels not to run out of ammo. Actually, I scored more large zed kills just supporting the zerks and sharps and finishing them off from afar (sorry) than I did while struggling to fight them off as this nerfed zerk.
For real, a L25 Berzerker should be able to carefully handle 2 or more large zeds at a time. Now one wrong move, one single instance where you lose control or get off-rythm, and you're shredded in seconds like a L4.
once, I was facing the last Scrake (freaking just one) with the rest of my team waiting at the trader, and I was circling the fountain at volter manor for what felt like 4 or 5 minutes (was probably just 1). Seriously, I was never that scared to try and connect with a hit, and now I very well should be. It's really disheartening, because before, as a high level melee nut, you could always jump in and save your teammates by simply standing up to the horde's multiple large zeds and have minimal difficulty. idk, the longer I write the more I feel like i'm just complaining.
But my point is, was it really necessary to take the class that was having the most fun and nerf it into oblivion on general principle? What are we even grinding for?
For real, a L25 Berzerker should be able to carefully handle 2 or more large zeds at a time. Now one wrong move, one single instance where you lose control or get off-rythm, and you're shredded in seconds like a L4.
once, I was facing the last Scrake (freaking just one) with the rest of my team waiting at the trader, and I was circling the fountain at volter manor for what felt like 4 or 5 minutes (was probably just 1). Seriously, I was never that scared to try and connect with a hit, and now I very well should be. It's really disheartening, because before, as a high level melee nut, you could always jump in and save your teammates by simply standing up to the horde's multiple large zeds and have minimal difficulty. idk, the longer I write the more I feel like i'm just complaining.
But my point is, was it really necessary to take the class that was having the most fun and nerf it into oblivion on general principle? What are we even grinding for?
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As a suggestion, how about something like the perk skill the Gunslinger has, where each consecutive hard melee hit to the head does more and more damage;
1 hit 9%
2 hits 18%
3 hits 27%
4 hits 36%
5 hits 45%
6 hits 54%
7 hits 63%
8 hits 72%
9 hits 81%
10 hits 90%
A good zerk can do major damage to the horde if they're methodical, which is counter-intuitive when you are literally called berserker, but then that's the challenge. There, I just solved berserker. Complaining stopped, thread finished, Miller Time.
1 hit 9%
2 hits 18%
3 hits 27%
4 hits 36%
5 hits 45%
6 hits 54%
7 hits 63%
8 hits 72%
9 hits 81%
10 hits 90%
A good zerk can do major damage to the horde if they're methodical, which is counter-intuitive when you are literally called berserker, but then that's the challenge. There, I just solved berserker. Complaining stopped, thread finished, Miller Time.
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Except that I think damage is not the issue. The tankiness and survivability is the issue. Doing more damage in a Rack 'em Up style does not allow you to suddenly run in and save someone from a big zed.
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It would if it actually allowed you to get that huge, you'd take it's head off in one swing.
But that isn't the solution, the solution is what other people have already suggested: Add back in a little bit of movement speed, attack speed and max health to the perk progression. Do that, maybe buff Dreadnought by adding in 1HP/second regen to it, fix Skirmisher so that it actually gives you 2HP/second (last I checked, it only gave you 1) and Zerker will be right as rain.
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It gets me so upset playing as zerk on hoe but its really the only class i like playing. Those regen skills aren't needed on hoe the extra hp is needed and dmg resistance is needed. Its like every skill you have to choose is making the zerk weak in some way by not being able to have the other skill on. I've said this before; i've put over 700 hours into just playing zerk and i'm not a bad player. This rework of the zerk might be balanced for lower difficulties but it certainly doesn't work for hoe. If you look at all the other perks they all have methods of taking down big zeds with taking no dmg to very little dmg depending on your skill. This is no longer the case for the zerk unless you leave the big zeds till the end of the wave and you can fight them 1 on 1.
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Everything people say in this thread sounds like berserker's skill tree finally offers some difficult choices... only they got used to having it all at once. Taking down scrakes and fleshpounds solo as a berserker is absolutely possible. Even tanking them is still possible!
However, if there is one huge weakness berserker has then it's how much space he needs to kill scrakes and fleshpounds. Space void of any other zeds that is.
Okay there are ways to get around that (eviscerator, team cleans the trash, team stuns the big ones for you, etc.) but apparently that's not how some believe berserker should be. Buying T4 like a sheep. Teamwork... pah!
Just think about it... which perk can kill both fleshpounds and scrakes with a t2.5 or t3 weapon? Sharpshooter kind of... gunslinger maybe (probably just scrakes though). Both use ammo though and are dedicated to this role. And that's it! So why should berserker be able to?
And yet you still CAN kill both with low tier weapons. It is just very hard if you don't have perfect aim (zweihander). But you still excell at controlling them even if already raged. The pulverizer makes it super easy to stumble and parry tank both fleshpounds and scrakes and to finish them off.
However, if there is one huge weakness berserker has then it's how much space he needs to kill scrakes and fleshpounds. Space void of any other zeds that is.
Okay there are ways to get around that (eviscerator, team cleans the trash, team stuns the big ones for you, etc.) but apparently that's not how some believe berserker should be. Buying T4 like a sheep. Teamwork... pah!
Just think about it... which perk can kill both fleshpounds and scrakes with a t2.5 or t3 weapon? Sharpshooter kind of... gunslinger maybe (probably just scrakes though). Both use ammo though and are dedicated to this role. And that's it! So why should berserker be able to?
And yet you still CAN kill both with low tier weapons. It is just very hard if you don't have perfect aim (zweihander). But you still excell at controlling them even if already raged. The pulverizer makes it super easy to stumble and parry tank both fleshpounds and scrakes and to finish them off.
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i guess the answer to that is likely - because those things give interesting flexibility.
too much flexibility? idunno, maybe. but those facets being present give more Tools in Combat. and personally, in every game, i'm always a supporter of the Player having more Tools available to them, because having many different ways to handle situations gives solid variety, which helps the sanity of Players in the long run.
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What I meant with the last paragraph is that zweihander and pulverizer are still tools to control damage giants at the same time like no other T2-3 weapon. And they even still allow you to solo them - it's just not easy in any way anymore.
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I think zerk's main strength is stumbling now. I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. The passives could use some work but the new skill tree seems alright.
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Is the current Zerker bad?
I played 6p HoE as zerker and I was always the top fragger. I also didnt think he was weak or something, I could do a lot of damage on FPs and Sc.Of course with the help of a heal bot behind me.
But soloing works fine with the left perk skill at level 25 (where you get 25% hp back when you enter zed time).
I think hes fine as he is. The only thing I would change is the parry/block. Its still not very usefull, cuz its too slow and very unresponsible. I also would increase the damage reduction when you parry to 90% but reduce to 30% when you block.
This would split the good zerkers from great zerkers.
I played 6p HoE as zerker and I was always the top fragger. I also didnt think he was weak or something, I could do a lot of damage on FPs and Sc.Of course with the help of a heal bot behind me.
But soloing works fine with the left perk skill at level 25 (where you get 25% hp back when you enter zed time).
I think hes fine as he is. The only thing I would change is the parry/block. Its still not very usefull, cuz its too slow and very unresponsible. I also would increase the damage reduction when you parry to 90% but reduce to 30% when you block.
This would split the good zerkers from great zerkers.
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Having gotten a better feel of the 1037 zerker, I think he's in a pretty decent position. Fairly powerful, but at the same time, not what i'd call invincible. Sure, you can clean up trash with the Crovel, though it does take some level of precision if you're using the Vampire skill instead of Butcher, though I kinda feel that Vampire will prove to be more optimal if you have the Zweihander or Pulverizer.
However, the only thing that I'd really ask out of his skill tree is to replace Parry with Frenzy (Well, they call you 'Berserker': Your meleeperk weapon damage increases for every 15% of your health lost). Should Frenzy be brought back into the game however, I think damage increase per interval should be 8%, since you'll have to be at 55 HP to get the most optimal damage increase. If you somehow get to the 48% damage bonus, you're dead anyways.
However, the only thing that I'd really ask out of his skill tree is to replace Parry with Frenzy (Well, they call you 'Berserker': Your meleeperk weapon damage increases for every 15% of your health lost). Should Frenzy be brought back into the game however, I think damage increase per interval should be 8%, since you'll have to be at 55 HP to get the most optimal damage increase. If you somehow get to the 48% damage bonus, you're dead anyways.
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*HealBOT*. Cough, so you saying that with a feasible medic pumping your *** every time, you are able to take and trivialize all things , Bravo ! Weakness on paper is another thing, but being bad is another. At current state zerk is simply bad. Period. Having to choose between you movement speed and tanking effectiveness was where it went wrong. Plus on top of that , he not only lost all of that he also lost the attack speed bonuses. Beserking essentially meant to be on the frontlines and protect the team from the zeds swarming or pushing over. In HoE "Movement" speed itself a form of tanking, because when **** hits the top being able to move around and clear is hugely mandatory. Now in current state you are either stuck to be a fragile guy being able to run around freely or be the guy who can tank effective 2-4hits but still needs to flee because you are too slow.
A frontline perk should be independent to itself for tanking and not rely on a medic to save his sorry soul every now and then. Taking away key elements from the perk and splitting them up to call it "Viable" is essentially bad reworking. Imagine if Support lost all his damage and zed penetration bonuses passives and instead got them split up into perks where you either have to choose between full penetration bonus'es or choose dps perks to atleast deal significant damage. That would really suck right , as you are now making choices between both , which are infact both mandatory.
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