Why do Sirens still destroy projectiles?

[slashsnemesis]

Let us think back to the KF1 Demo for a bit. We all remember what the Demo could do to Fleshpounds back then. If you don't, this video shows pretty well. A 6 man, HoE Fleshpound, reduced to jelly before it can leave the rage animation. Single-handedly, might I add. This was a good reason to introduce a zed that could nullify explosives with an AoE ability, ie the Siren. Sirens were purposefully coded to spawn with Fleshpounds because the Demo's job was so easy. There had to be something to keep him down, otherwise the hardest non-boss zed in the game would be completely trivialized by a single Demo with an M32.

Now, let us look at the KF2 Demo. Gone are the days of wiping 6 man HoE Fleshpounds single handedly, before they can take a step out of their rage animation. It's easy to see that the KF2 Demo is significantly less powerful than his KF1 counter part. So the question is, why are Sirens still destroying his projectiles? What is so exceedingly powerful about this iteration of Demo that warrants a zed having a large AoE projectile negation field ability, which is still deliberately coded to spawn with Fleshpounds? He can't single-handedly mulch high difficulty Fleshpounds before they leave the rage animation, he doesn't have a 6 shot rapid fire grenade launcher with a shotgun-like interruptable reload, he doesn't have as many grenades, he doesn't have as much ammo, he doesn't get any discounts, all of his weapons are single shot with long reloads, the list goes on. The logic just doesn't work anymore. He does not deserve this hard counter.

And not only does he not deserve it, but it's not fun. It is an anti-fun mechanic. Furthermore, this would help solve the issue of no-brainer, auto-pick perks within the Demo's perk tree. If you remove the ability from Sirens, you open up the Siren Resistance perk for something that feels less essential and offers more choice for the player, rather than them feeling forced into a perk to have fun when Sirens show up.

 

[random]

well TWI said that they were thinking some things for the demo, so we'd have to wait for that to know if its deserved or not, im hoping for some more power but not at the m32 level, which was awesome with commando too.

on the other hand i hardly encountered any problems with level-15 demo without that ability, it sure gives you the advantage to not care but its not like the demo is that much worse without it, its just that he is not that strong to begin with.

 

[slashsnemesis]

I just can't find any justification for Sirens destroying projectiles. Yeah Demo can get by playing around it but if there isn't a good reason it's there and it's no fun at all to deal with, then it's best off being removed.

 

[random]

I just can't find any justification for Sirens destroying projectiles. Yeah Demo can get by playing around it but if there isn't a good reason it's there and it's no fun at all to deal with, then it's best off being removed.

that seems very one sided, thats their role, destroing explosives, not particulary proyectiles, i have fun dealing with it, with any perk, someone suggested that they destroy the explosive only, leaving the dud proyectile, that could work.

if you mean there is not a good reason because the demo is not strong enough to warrant it, then i can kinda agree to some point, he needs some more versatility and firepower, but not that much since now you have some extra incaps, and we have sprint and other stuff, in short he needs more power but not KF1 level.

but like i said before, since he might be in for some tweaks its too soon to tell.

 

[2Clicks]

I just can't find any justification for Sirens destroying projectiles. Yeah Demo can get by playing around it but if there isn't a good reason it's there and it's no fun at all to deal with, then it's best off being removed.

Isnt adding another layer to the tactical decision-making pushed onto players enough?

I dont necessarily agree/disagree. I always though that the ability for players to lose the effectiveness of their nades meant that there was a need to target sirens first. Otherwise it just becomes another COD/leftmouse click-fest!

 

[Nenga]

On the whole classes arn't as powerful as they were in KF1. I assume TWI plans to buff demo (hopefully because it needs it). So maybe wait for that before changing one of the zeds. Keep in mind it is EA.

 

[vealck]

I just can't find any justification for Sirens destroying projectiles. Yeah Demo can get by playing around it but if there isn't a good reason it's there and it's no fun at all to deal with, then it's best off being removed.

They spawn with fleshpounds and protect them from grenades and other explosives. That's all the justification needed.

 

[Swift-Brutal-Death]

Sirens only destroy projectiles and grenades when they are screaming. You have to time your attacks in between her screams. Sure she drives me crazy but that is her main role in the game, negating large AOE explosives.

 

[Shining Wolf]

Every perk has grenades that can be destroyed by sirens, i.e. a way to stop clutch grenades saving people from zeds bearing down on them if a siren is still up. Grenades are one of the best ways to save an ally surrounded by trash and sirens can stop that.

 

[slashsnemesis]

I should specify, I didn't mean to suggest that they should no longer destroy any grenades or projectiles, period. They should still negate any thrown grenades carelessly tossed into their field, but there is no need for them to be able to shut down all of Demo's perk weapons. He has enough weaknesses to keep him from dominating, especially on higher difficulties.

Sirens only destroy projectiles and grenades when they are screaming. You have to time your attacks in between her screams. Sure she drives me crazy but that is her main role in the game, negating large AOE explosives.

I won't deny that it can be played around without much trouble. But does that justify it, or mean that it's fun in the least?

What is so greatly powerful about the Demo that he deserves a zed to deliberately counter all of his perk weapons? Does it make sense to take the Demo and significantly weaken his anti-FP ability and strength in general and then go and put him against an almost exact replica of the same old anti-Demo zed his KF1 counter part dealt with?

 

[JRMFTW]

I won't deny that it can be played around without much trouble. But does that justify it, or mean that it's fun in the least?

I see no problem with it and it's still loads of fun. Being able to spot a siren and dispose of it quickly before it even gets close adds to the excitement because there is an aspect of risk/reward.
I love this mechanic and also love that there is a bonus you can choose that lets you fire through the screams if you so desire.

The only problem with Demo is the useless single reload starting pistol that can barely kills 2 trash zeds in one shot and the lack of damage dealt to FP's, which I feel is more of a zed issue instead of perk.

 

[slashsnemesis]

I see no problem with it and it's still loads of fun. Being able to spot a siren and dispose of it quickly before it even gets close adds to the excitement because there is an aspect of risk/reward.
I love this mechanic and also love that there is a bonus you can choose that lets you fire through the screams if you so desire.

The only problem with Demo is the useless single reload starting pistol that can barely kills 2 trash zeds in one shot and the lack of damage dealt to FP's, which I feel is more of a zed issue instead of perk.

You make it sound as if the tier 15 skill has another option, I don't know what you're talking about. I only see Siren Resistance there.

The risk/reward you talk about, I'd like to examine that. The risk you take, when you shoot in the vicinity of a Siren as Demo, is huge. What is the reward? You blow up some zeds, exactly what would have happened if there was no Siren. She didn't provide you with a risk/reward, she just made your life way harder. But why does she get to do that is what I am looking for an answer to. The low ammo, expensive ammo, lengthy reloads, single shot weaponry, 100 max hp, severe vulnerability to zeds within 3.87 meters, limited sidearm options, and lack of mobility aren't enough? These downsides are absolutely crippling in the higher difficulties. And he needs the Siren negating all of his perk weapons on top of that?

 

[avgnfan26]

there is a perk in the tree that makes it where your explosives go through siren screams, whole post invalidated

 

[slashsnemesis]

there is a perk in the tree that makes it where your explosives go through siren screams, whole post invalidated

So you're okay with this perk being blatantly better than the other, defeating the whole purpose of choice with the skill tree. I'm proposing a way to fix this, while also making the Demo more fun and more viable in the process.

I bet you any Demo main you ask will tell you Siren Resistance feels essential to viable perk function. To me, this says it should be an innate part of the perk. Skills should not be patching gaping flaws, they should be supplementing an already viable base perk.

 

[Gladius]

TL;DR: Making sirens not affecting explosives is dumbing the game further down.

Demo shouldn't be able just to nuke an FP at the horizon. Gameplay team dynamics are what makes that game interesting. Sharps or mando need to clear the sirens, so the demo can go to work. This is exactly how co-op is supposed to be.

 

[TheUndying]

I haven't really played KF1 all that much, therefor I'm not nostalgic by any means.

I like my demo. Before Lvl 15 it's hard to kill sirens when they scream, you have to time when to strike - after that it's quite easy. I can agree on the other perk being useless and never picked (mainly because it's way too situational and does nothing).
But Killing FPs is still his main job. Plant 2 C4s, throw a pipe to stun him (granted you're 20+ and picked the right perk - but what person picks extra dmg for off perk weapons? Another weird skill choice), blow 1 C4, fire RPG, blow second C4.
Don't know about HoE but if your team keeps firing on him during this process, the FP is no more.

Whenever I play on hard or above, I pick demo when no one else does.
FPs are such massive bullet sponges that you simply need one.

So yes, I can agree that maybe his Lvl 15 and 20 perk choices need some rework, but I don't think Demo's job should be that easy.
For me it's more of a risk-reward situation - you need to get close for your C4 to plant but it's so satisfying if a FP goes down so quickly.

 

[Nenga]

(granted you're 20+ and picked the right perk - but what person picks extra dmg for off perk weapons? Another weird skill choice)

That's the thing. A class shouldn't rely on skill choices for basic function. If you have a skill choice where one allows you to actually use the class and the other doesn't then it's not really a choice because there's one right answer.

Most people will agree that you should be able to take on hard at atleast level 10 (some say 0). If you need to be level 20 before you can effectively play hard then the balance might be out of whack a little bit.

 

[FoolishNinja]

There are spawning waaay too many sirens. Either they reduce the siren spawns and remove the sonic resistance, or they keep it that way with sonic resistance. I prefer the first one

 

[Splatpope]

they're meant to be an immediate focus target for all players instead of a goddamn "counterpart" to the demo

 

[slashsnemesis]

they're meant to be an immediate focus target for all players instead of a goddamn "counterpart" to the demo

I'm unclear if you're agreeing that they shouldn't be countering the Demo, or if you're saying that I am missing the point of the zed.