Whitelisting

[KingJoker]

White listing is already out right? first few months of KF were **** with garbage maps because of "map packs" and then perk grinders.

 

[DMN666]

Well maps were garbage because the games engine was real low. I seen some 06-09 maps and they were all simplistic. KF2 is more advance so i cant imagine someone making a map that looks like its from 2006. WL has to be in, no questions asked.

If it makes you feel better, they said that during the EA period, when they find stuff and patch the game, they will also reset everyones perk progression. If that happens then there would be little point in always grinding your perks.

 

[HeatSurge]

Perk grinder maps were present in KF1, but it also had some amazing community maps, a lot of which were merged into the "release" channel as they were, or with small finishing touches by TW employees.

That being said, whitelisting is a cumbersome idea, and I don't think it worked well. Good maps weren't whitelisted while EZ/crap was whitelisted and the list wasn't overly quick to update - and then was somewhat abandoned when the game lost popularity a couple of years later preventing some amazing maps from being played due to arbitrarily "not being whitelisted."

It's unfortunate, but I saw that if it wasn't on dedicated "grinder" maps, people would play on ridiculously easy whitelisted maps (Doom2 MAP01, Arcade-Skatepark, Arcade-GasStation, etc.) and it would have the same effect anyway (level without skill/understanding/experience). So I think the whole whitelisting idea while in theory was good, in practice it didn't mean much. It sucks that level won't be an indication of skill as designed, but it is what it is. I'd imagine some people don't enjoy arbitrary "leveling" and bonuses because you killed "X" things, so by playing grinder maps they're removing the lack of that arbitrary "multiplier," but I enjoyed it. It is an issue that people are circumventing game mechanics/progression, but for whatever reason it doesn't bother me as much.

 

[RoBoT]

Well maps were garbage because the games engine was real low. I seen some 06-09 maps and they were all simplistic. KF2 is more advance so i cant imagine someone making a map that looks like its from 2006. WL has to be in, no questions asked.

I don't think he meant garbage by the visual quality, I think he meant the maps with exploits & (not reachable for zeds) spots

 

[nejcooo]

White listing is already out right? first few months of KF were **** with garbage maps because of "map packs" and then perk grinders.

There's gonna be always a way to grind. If they make it harder, they won't achieve much. Every player can play 1st wave of hoe match and just clear it out and restart map and repeat. That's grinding too.

Preventing grinding means: additional work, map versions (which would be confusing and annoying), custom maps would be less played, everything would turn into big mess (you cannot control 300 custom maps). It's easy for somebody to make map with exploit and get it whitelisted you know. They don't have enough time to find out that xxxx map is exploit free.

Moral of story: there's no good reason to prevent grinding. Some people have fun doing it, so why stopping them and making custom maps less popular?

 

[Jovial]

I started a similar thread, but I gotta say I was swayed by the people against whitelist.

It creates a load of work for TWI and limits the amount of custom maps out there. As has been mentioned, people are going to find a way to grind no matter what. Ultimately it doesn't really matter.

 

[HeatSurge]

Case in point:

KF-Arcade-Skatepark - easy as hell, stand in the middle, specimens take a long, long time to get to you, all in a straight line, possible to line up xbow or shotty shots that go through 10 heads/specimens at a time with no effort or movement needed. The distance is so large that if you spot a FP reasonably quickly, you can make it rage and it will stop raging before it gets to you .
KF-Arcade-Harcore - the name says it all, barely possible to complete on Hard (I think I've done it with teams before but it's extremely rare), never tried on Sucidal/HOE, but it might be mathematically impossible or require timing and aiming so tight that maybe after weeks of practice a team might actually get there? The distance is small and virtually uncampable to the point where FP is on you within a few seconds of you being able to spot it, even without rage. Sirens basically spawn within hurt radius.

Both whitelisted, both by the same author, both without (that I know of) exploits, one extremely n

 

[KingJoker]

I don't think he meant garbage by the visual quality, I think he meant the maps with exploits & (not reachable for zeds) spots

Yeah exactly.
I was in that white list group **** back in the day with Oliver and those guys.

A lot of maps were garbage because people just couldn't plan out the maps so they were easy as **** or there were just **** loads of exploits every ****ing where.

custom maps won't be less popular, it's just they won't be rotated on servers as much. I played the Z.E.D. server with my old friends and all we did were custom maps 24/7. This of course being around the time white list was a thing of course.

Whitelisting prevented **** maps from being rotated which i loved.

 

[HeatSurge]

Whitelisting prevented **** maps from being rotated which i loved.

I love that idea in theory, but like I said above in practice it's difficult to maintain and tell people "basically your map is not good enough for X reason to be whitelisted." I'm more inclined to put the responsibility of filtering maps into server operators, and actually players' hands.

If a **** map comes around, don't put it on your server. If you're playing and a **** map starts, leave the server. I would hope eventually the bad maps will naturally go in the trashcan this way.

That being said, it was pretty annoying for a while when Doom2MAP01 was whitelisted and literaly every server I ever joined voted for it for weeks on end, while gorgeous maps in terms of visual/aural design AND layout/pathing were mostly ignored.

 

[KingJoker]

I love that idea in theory, but like I said above in practice it's difficult to maintain and tell people "basically your map is not good enough for X reason to be whitelisted." I'm more inclined to put the responsibility of filtering maps into server operators, and actually players' hands.

If a **** map comes around, don't put it on your server. If you're playing and a **** map starts, leave the server. I would hope eventually the bad maps will naturally go in the trashcan this way.

That being said, it was pretty annoying for a while when Doom2MAP01 was whitelisted and literaly every server I ever joined voted for it for weeks on end, while gorgeous maps in terms of visual/aural design AND layout/pathing were mostly ignored.

Doom2 map was a huge mistake to be white listed but it was too popular not to be. It was the best map IMO in 2009 though. although this is no excuse for whitelisting it was understandable, whitelisting also ruined some maps though - if you want an example of this go play biotics ugliest ****ing vent i seen in my ****ing life.

But this has got me thinking about some organization to the whitelisting, and how TW is going to do it again.
KF2 is probably going to have a huge surge in comparison to KF1 because of the media ****. So I have no idea how they're going to handle this now that i think about it.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

I started a similar thread, but I gotta say I was swayed by the people against whitelist.

It creates a load of work for TWI and limits the amount of custom maps out there. As has been mentioned, people are going to find a way to grind no matter what. Ultimately it doesn't really matter.

Not like anyone needs to make a grinding map with how much faster it is to level in KF2

 

[Gladius]

WL has to be in, no questions asked.

^
This!

 

[Nocturnal7x]

I started a similar thread, but I gotta say I was swayed by the people against whitelist.

It creates a load of work for TWI and limits the amount of custom maps out there. As has been mentioned, people are going to find a way to grind no matter what. Ultimately it doesn't really matter.

I like this. This is a PvE game, if people want to cheat to level by playing on boring grinder maps who are they harming?

People would do that thing on aperture to level support. What can ya do.

 

[Jovial]

Doom2 map was a huge mistake to be white listed but it was too popular not to be. It was the best map IMO in 2009 though. although this is no excuse for whitelisting it was understandable, whitelisting also ruined some maps though - if you want an example of this go play biotics ugliest ****ing vent i seen in my ****ing life.

But this has got me thinking about some organization to the whitelisting, and how TW is going to do it again.
KF2 is probably going to have a huge surge in comparison to KF1 because of the media ****. So I have no idea how they're going to handle this now that i think about it.

People are just lining up point after point against whitelisting, it's kind of hard to hold that position. Even with whitelisting, some camping/grinding maps WILL 100% certainty become so popular TWI will feel pressured to whitelist them.

So to sum up the meaningful options ;

#1 Maintain a whitelist, following an established standard that frowns upon grinding. This will require a lot of extra from TWI to test all maps submitted and make sure none of them are grind/exploit friendly. If a map like Doom is accepted, you might as well not have the whitelist at all.

#2 Screw the whitelist, let players police their own community so to speak. Good maps will rise to the top of the servers naturally. Grinders will grind, but who cares?

 

[poosh]

Map whitelist must be in KF2. Of course, there will be easier and harder maps. And not all exploits will be found. But at least whitelist filters maps that are designated for perk grinding and achievement hunting.

"Grinders will grind, but who cares?"
Robbers will rob. Is this an excuse for not closing your house before leaving?

KF1 map whitelisting was pathetic because it was unorganized. Level designers didn't knew what kind of maps are acceptable, neither did whitelisting team. So it usually ended up with matter of personal preference.

Tripwire should make detailed requirement set for KF2 map to be whitelisted. For example:

• Map should have at least 3 traders.
• Minimal distance between traders: 50m.
• Players must be able to get from spawn to any trader on the map in 40 seconds max.
• All rooms and areas must have at least 2 entrances.
• There shouldn't be any place on the map, where distance to appearing zeds exceeds 25m in all directions.
• There shouldn't be any place on the map, which is reachable by players and unreachable by zeds.

Having such requirement list makes whitelisting process much easier.

Besides, whitelist should be stored in some kind of Steam database instead of being hardcoded into the game. It will make maintaining much easier.

 

[poosh]

Not like anyone needs to make a grinding map with how much faster it is to level in KF2

Faster?.. It took me ~40 hours to level up my Commando to 25. And I moved to Suicidal somewhere around level 10 and to HoE on lvl 15. If I would continued playing on Normal/Hard, then it would take even longer.
There will be 10 perks in final game. 10x40=400 hours to level up everything. Is it fast?..

 

[Reallifeh8er]

I say
NO!
to map whitelist.

 

[Jovial]

"Grinders will grind, but who cares?"
Robbers will rob. Is this an excuse for not closing your house before leaving?

There is some difference. Robbers robbing your house directly affects you. Someone being lvl 25 might indirectly affect you, but mostly it won't. They may be lvl 25, but are probably still not ready for HoE or even suicidal, since that is and should be gated by player skill and knowledge first, perk level second.

KF is not an RPG, and the leveling process in itself isn't really the main draw or purpose of the game. If it was, why did people keep playing KF1 for such a long time after they hit lvl 6 on their perks, and why didn't TWI make "Borderlands meets KF" for their sequel?

KF1 map whitelisting was pathetic because it was unorganized. Level designers didn't knew what kind of maps are acceptable, neither did whitelisting team. So it usually ended up with matter of personal preference.

Tripwire should make detailed requirement set for KF2 map to be whitelisted. For example:

• Map should have at least 3 traders.
• Minimal distance between traders: 50m.
• Players must be able to get from spawn to any trader on the map in 40 seconds max.
• All rooms and areas must have at least 2 entrances.
• There shouldn't be any place on the map, where distance to appearing zeds exceeds 25m in all directions.
• There shouldn't be any place on the map, which is reachable by players and unreachable by zeds.

Having such requirement list makes whitelisting process much easier.

Besides, whitelist should be stored in some kind of Steam database instead of being hardcoded into the game. It will make maintaining much easier.

This sounds like quite a bit of extra work for them. I think it's too much effort to prevent something that doesn't really have any real bearing on the overall quality of the game.

A few lvl 25 noobs never killed anyone. Probably.

Edit : Is there really no official dev statement on whitelisting this close to EA? Not that it matters hugely in EA anyway, but some clarity on this would be nice.

 

[Cizjut111]

Whitelisting was annoying as a map maker, and since it's obviously exploitable to make a room with fixed spawnpoints with Stalkers to level up Commando (which was almost necessary to lvl up Commando holy ****), it detracted from the community and creativity. The game had an enormous boom when whitelists were off and anything goes. It was better and we could try incredible new maps without worrying about MUH XP I'M NOT LVLING.


The new leveling system seems less annoying than KF1 so it should sway grinders from killing grounds to just enjoy the game naturally.