Three ways to hold a gun- too many?

[Reise]

I honestly find no flaws with the way it was presented.

Hip and IS, then hold your breath for better shots in zoomed IS.

There's significant differences between each "mode" to account for them being included.

1) Hip firing - You have the advantage of throwing lead in a general area in the shortest amount of time. It is usually the least accurate but the most effective when used right.

2) Regular IS - For when you need accuracy but you don't necessarily have the time to control your breathing and fire with precision. Best for a majority of encounters, this allows a balance between the extremes.

3) Zoomed IS - For when accuracy is paramount and reasonable to achieve. I can see this being used mostly with the bolt rifles and for snipers. It also makes up for the way objects are represented on screen vs. the way the would appear in reality, as some have said.

The biggest factor in separating these is what was said in the preview videos. It gives the player functionality, or options. With more options the player can decide what is appropriate for his situation, and will be more comfortable because his choices aren't limited.

 

[LogisticEarth]

Hip and IS, then hold your breath for better shots in zoomed IS.

Zooming as it will be implemented in ROHOS, in my understanding, will mearly zoom in the world, not provide any additional accuracy, nor should it. It mearly is a fudge to represent the actual resolution of the real world (when you need it). I really hope that HOS doesn't have any of this silly "hold your breath to increase accuracy" nonsense. The only time you should hold your breath should be at the instant of the trigger pull, otherwise you're shooting at the natural pause in between breaths (which is already represented in ROOST by the iron sight sway). Holding your breath over any period of time increases your heart rate, involuntary muscle movements, makes you more likely to jerk the trigger pull, etc. All stuff that detracts from accurate shooting.

 

[Lucan946]

You are starting the carousel now. Shouldered, hip, sighted.. who cares! My point is clear as day: three ways to shoot is too many, so sights and zoomed in sights are the perfect mix.

NO, THEY SMEGGING AREN'T. I'm sorry, but, Jesus Christ this is stupid. At least Peterpans suggestions are fairly harmless, but this is just retarted. Hip shooting is very, very, very useful for just keeping heads down or CQB. Not to mention, running around with a six to twelve pound firearm in your hands is much more comfortable when held at the hip.

 

[skittlesareyum47]

please close this!

 

[LemoN]

At least Peterpans suggestions are fairly harmless

and you have to agree that Peter improved by a big ammount

 

[Zetsumei]

TBH personally i would prefer 2 stances.

Hip & Ironsight, then when in breathing mode, you only use free aim.
Aka in breathing mode you can move your gun all over the screen without moving the gun.
As in that case the top and bottom right corners give you an approximate 2x size as well.

http://pics.roladder.net/a9ab52e1430730199e2eab581413d464.jpghttp://pics.roladder.net/a9ab52e1430730199e2eab581413d464.jpg
http://pics.roladder.net/9bb0bdd4a4597458bcaa248f6e3a6829.jpghttp://pics.roladder.net/9bb0bdd4a4597458bcaa248f6e3a6829.jpg

 

[LemoN]

TBH personally i would prefer 2 stances.

Hip & Ironsight, then when in breathing mode, you only use free aim.
Aka in breathing mode you can move your gun all over the screen without moving the gun.
As in that case the top and bottom right corners give you an approximate 2x size as well.

http://pics.roladder.net/a9ab52e1430730199e2eab581413d464.jpg
http://pics.roladder.net/9bb0bdd4a4597458bcaa248f6e3a6829.jpg

freeaim while in ironsights isnt realistic at all, as stated numerious times
(allthought a tiny bit of freeaim may be realistic)

explanation: as soon as your eyes focus on the sights, they are dead center on your screen, as this is where your eyes are looking at
as soon as you look somewhere else, the sights are not focused anymore
looking somewhere else than your sights would be free-sight and free-view (modelling both eye movement and head movement)
but for free sight and free view you would have to have a full body model and bind another button

its simply not possible for your eyes to focus on something without being in the dead center of your view (allthought anatomic face restrictions still are there, ie your nose ect)

 

[Zetsumei]

A lot of functions are bound to your mouse movement. Generally focussing is done by the user himself behind his mouse and keyboard. I don't know about you but i am not focussing only on the center of my screen in any game.

I prefer to keep my own ability to move my head and move my eyes to look at the surrounding. Thats why field of dept is such a horrible thing unless it would start tracking where my pupils are looking at. Rather than where the center of my screen is or where my ironsights are looking at.

Mouse movement in this game means you move your entire body, the mouse is not the movement of just your eyes or even just your head its the movement of your entire body.

Free aim exactly makes a lot of sense atleast in the way that if you aim for someone a bit more to the right that your entire body doesn't move to the right as well. Because that is the implification of mouse movement being bound to your entire body.

I don't want to be constricted in a game to only be able to look at the dead center of my monitor, i want to use my reallife head and eyes to track targets, and my monitor is like some window i look at. So if I can focus on the right side of my monitor why shouldnt i be able to see what is being displayed there. Just like in a window, if you look through a window in your room do you only look through the center, and when you look at the edges of a window do you see everything blurred? Because when i'm looking out of a window i can focus whatever im looking at, and the same should hold through for a game in my opinion. (logically the only big difference being that you don't focus behind the monitor itself, but that could perhaps become possible with 3d monitors at some point)

Dead center of your monitor is not the dead center of your eyes, which becomes more evident the bigger your monitor becomes. The view on the monitor is not the view of your eyes. Like if monitors would be able to have the brightness and contrast of the real world you wouldnt need bloom, as your eyes would simply really adapt to the different lights. Even while typing this text, its on the top right part on my monitor, why should i restrict my eyes to only look at the center, when they can look and move over the entire screen.

 

[LemoN]

I prefer to keep my own ability to move my head and move my eyes to look at the surrounding. Thats why field of dept is such a horrible thing unless it would start tracking where my pupils are looking at. Rather than where the center of my screen is or where my ironsights are looking at.

Mouse movement in this game means you move your entire body, the mouse is not the movement of just your eyes or even just your head its the movement of your entire body.

it simply is not possible to point a weapon in your outer FOV and keep the sights alligned and sharp (besides that, it just looks incredibly gamey and its physically not possible to do that too)

my solution for this would be to keep free aim in hipmode but take an entirely different approach on freeaim while in ironsights

restrict your weapon to the approximate center of the screen(with maybe 2-3cm freeaim), but enable free head/upper body movement in a restricted arc while in that mode
i can pivot my head/upper body (if alligned to the sights) around an rough 80

 

[Zetsumei]

For individual head eye movement or whatever you would need something as headtracking to controll it atleast if you want to control it simulatiously. Free aim as well helps with stopping exploits as well. And remember that the idea of free aim is double sided its not only to look away to somewhere else its there to indeed simulate taking the gun off target for bit as well.

Freeaim is possible in reallife, as simply all freeaim is is moving your eye gun or body seperate from each other. Which is perfectly possible.

The difference in our point of view is that you would rather want something like ArmA2 headtracking where if you move your head to the right the image on your screen turns to the right, and if you have a dome of screens the non center screens only show perhipheral vision.

Where i would prefer yourself being in a dome of screens where if you turn your head to the right you just see on your screen on the right what is happening there. But saying you that this approach is more unrealistic is a bit odd, as most simmers would prefer for a car or plane simulation to just take a real car or plane and remove all the windows with screens.

My main suggestion was exactly abusing the free aim to get the ironsight zoom without visually seeing your screen zoom in.

 

[LemoN]

For individual head eye movement or whatever you would need something as headtracking to controll it atleast if you want to control it simulatiously. Free aim as well helps with stopping exploits as well. And remember that the idea of free aim is double sided its not only to look away to somewhere else its there to indeed simulate taking the gun off target for bit as well.

Freeaim is possible in reallife, as simply all freeaim is is moving your eye gun or body seperate from each other. Which is perfectly possible.

The difference in our point of view is that you would rather want something like ArmA2 headtracking where if you move your head to the right the image on your screen turns to the right, and if you have a dome of screens the non center screens only show perhipheral vision.

Where i would prefer yourself being in a dome of screens where if you turn your head to the right you just see on your screen on the right what is happening there. But saying you that this approach is more unrealistic is a bit odd, as most simmers would prefer for a car or plane simulation to just take a real car or plane and remove all the windows with screens.

My main suggestion was exactly abusing the free aim to get the ironsight zoom without visually seeing your screen zoom in.

no, not ArmA's system
read my suggestion again and you hopefully will know what i mean

and yes moving your rifle and your eye seperately is possible, but its not possible to not have it in the center of the screen when you look at the sights when shooting

but i think the best thing would be to just take a rifle and try it yourself, you can of course point the gun somewhere else then where you look at (allthought your head is somewhat fixed to the stock) but as soon as you look at the sights your head, eyes and weapon become locked in at the dead center of your direct, focused view (periferal view, of course, is something completly different)

also, the zooming feature in RO simulates just that, concentrating on your sights
it would be somewhat ok if freeaim was only in the non zoomed in IS mode, simulating your ability to concentrate on different things besides your sights

PS: i actually hate ArmA's system, especially the huge freeaim in IS mode, and i would never use something imo unneeded as TrackIR

and i didnt say that your suggestion is more unrealistic, mine is unrealistic for leaving something out, yours is just as unrealistic for taking something unrealistic in

 

[Zetsumei]

With a real rifle i can look away, of course if i look away i cannot see where that darn thing is aiming.

Its the same in the game, if the ironsight is somewhere in the lower left of the screen and i look to the top right, i cannot see where the its aiming at. So to be able to aim through the ironsight i need to put my focus on where the ironsight is located.

But why should that place always be in the center, i can just as easily focus on a part on the right of my screen or on a part on the left.

The sights simply never unalign from your point of view as the system cannot know if you're focussing on the surroundings (and say want to quickly pull the gun down off your target so the sights arent blocking it while keeping your eyes on the target), or that you try to shoot at someone that just walks below you so you're moving the gun down while continuing to aim through the sights.

To make it short, for me the outer ends of the fov of the image projected on my screen is not the outer fov of my eyes.

----------

But the main thing about my suggestion was, if you use the freeaim system even further, you could in this case use the fov distortion that makes the edges bigger, as a method to see things at a realistic size. And wouldn't need any zoom anymore for that.

 

[LemoN]

But why should that place always be in the center, i can just as easily focus on a part on the right of my screen or on a part on the left.

to put it simply, because there is no free view of your head and eyes seperate from the gun

the thing is it just is not physically possible to move your gun around your vision while looking at the sights, and in a game you allways have the advantage that unless you move your mouse, your weapon will allways point at the exactly same spot (count in the tiny sway) so you can scan around your monitor for possible targets while keeping the gun perfectly pointed at a specific point

if you would do this in real life your aim probably would be off

so, your idea is to compensate for possible eye and head movement by pivoting the gun in a physically impossible manner around the screen, with the argument that you focus on different things behind the screen allready and that IRL you have better viewing capabilities like independent eye movement?

im only referring to the freeaim here, i in fact love the idea of simulating a focused view while in zoomed mode

 

[Zetsumei]

The thing is the screen is not my vision, my vision is what i see with my own if i move the screen to the top right i do not move it to the edge of my vision. I move it to the edge of a screen. I cannot move the gun around in my vision i agree with that, but as my screen is not my vision i can move my screen perfectly around the screen.

Its just like you don't exactly understand what im trying to say here with how i experience the game.
Imagine you have a gun in your actual hands you would be able to shoot the center of your screen, or the top right corner of the screen. Thats the way how i view this game and all games. Its like a small window. The thing projected on the screen is not my vision, my vision is the image projected into my very own eyes.

You see the game as if someone say records and transmits the image of someones eye, so the center of the screen is the center of focus. And if you focus through the sights of a weapon it should be within that center of focus. Things outside of the center of focus should become more blurry, and when focusing on things in the far distance things closeby should become blurry as well.

And if you look at it from my perspective then Freeaim is completely realistic , but things as dept of view and blurring when in ironsight mode then become unrealistic (unless you have a webcam and can do some sort of eye tracking).

 

[LemoN]

The thing is the screen is not my vision, my vision is what i see with my own if i move the screen to the top right i do not move it to the edge of my vision. I move it to the edge of a screen. I cannot move the gun around in my vision i agree with that, but as my screen is not my vision i can move my screen perfectly around the screen.

Its just like you don't exactly understand what im trying to say here with how i experience the game.
Imagine you have a gun in your actual hands you would be able to shoot the center of your screen, or the top right corner of the screen. Thats the way how i view this game and all games. Its like a small window. The thing projected on the screen is not my vision, my vision is the image projected into my very own eyes.

You see the game as if someone say records and transmits the image of someones eye, so the center of the screen is the center of focus. And if you focus through the sights of a weapon it should be within that center of focus. Things outside of the center of focus should become more blurry, and when focusing on things in the far distance things closeby should become blurry as well.

And if you look at it from my perspective then Freeaim is completely realistic , but things as dept of view and blurring when in ironsight mode then become unrealistic (unless you have a webcam and can do some sort of eye tracking).

easy solution

get a Wii and wait for a good shooter

but joking aside, i now fully understand your pov

 

[Zetsumei]

It works already for current pc shooters just in a different way your gun points one way , while its pointing somewhere i scan the horizon (often in the corner of my screen to get the free 2x zoom) and then once i see something i point and i click . For example i do not like the control in rail arcade shooters, as you can only control what you shoot at not how you move etc, but basically that view perspective is how i look at all current FPS games.

The difference is that from your point of view its unrealistic to scan the surrounding area like the corners of the screen for enemies while in ironsights, while from my perspective its not.

So basically yes i hope that the headtracking won't only allow you to say lean or look away from the gun. For me i care a lot more about getting something like this (so i can move my view a bit and look over cover for example, and no fov changes in ironsight modes if i want a wider fov i move my head closer to the screen):
YouTube - Head Tracking for Desktop VR Displays using the WiiRemote

 

[LemoN]

The difference is that from your point of view its unrealistic to scan the surrounding area like the corners of the screen for enemies while in ironsights, while from my perspective its not.

not true at all, my point simply is that is not possible to point and aim your weapon ala freeaim

this would only be possible if you are not playing the soldier, but play some guy has a controller like on a Wii

 

[Zetsumei]

which is exactly the same thing

 

[LemoN]

which is exactly the same thing

no

because when playing a soldier i want to be restricted in the same ways as he is, that means that freeaim while in IS is not possible

 

[Zetsumei]

Which is exactly the thing your definition of freeaim and representation of the screen perspective is different.
From the perspective i look at it freeaim is just as realistic as no freeaim, but with freeaim you get less of a feeling that the exact same looking gun is just painted on your screen as you can see it from more angles which gives it a 3d feeling. Thats why i prefer freeaim.