Things that make you go hmmm - Bayonet kills

[ROII4Me]

It is down right cartoonish when I have to put FOUR rounds from a semi auto rifle into a guy to drop him and then I am killed INSTANTLY by a bayonet from behind, and before I am on the ground he is running at full speed past me and I see him stab another guy and another before I have fully blacked out.

Okay. I am still playing RO2. I still like the game.

A full disclaimer would include that I definitely feel the arcade "moh" things were misguided at best and killed any chance of this being the best shooter ever, but it is still the best game of its type out there.

That being said, does anyone really think it makes the RO2 a better game when you can kill someone with your bayonet instantly - as in less than a fraction of a second to instant kill with one jab - without even breaking a run, and yet you can be shot in the guts with up to THREE rounds from an SVT or a G41 from 2 meters away - military rifles designed to knock someone down from 100 meters - and you do not drop your weapon, or fall down or become disoriented from hydrostatic shock, but instead can simply shoot your attacker dead before you slap on a band-aid and in one second be healed 100%?

I enjoy bayonet kills. But I see many people going on bayonet rampages where they kill people as easily as poking them with a finger and keep running to kill more and more and it is absurd, especially in a universe where being hit by rounds from military rifles anywhere other than brain, heart or nuts do not make you break a sweat and are cured instantly with band-aids.

To kill with a bayonet required a lot of force on the part of the stabber and a lot of force to pull it out again. Then you would have to regain momentum from a complete stop. Often the weapon would have to be extricated from the victim, particularly if it sliced into ribs or hip bones, which took time an effort.

But in RO2 EVERY bayonet stab takes exactly one second and imparts no loss of energy and you can go right back to a Jesse Owens sprint in the bat of an eye.

Again, I do not have as much a problem with this as I do putting this kind of insta-death from a knife into the same battleground where a big-@$$ army rifle shoots someone from close range and it had no more effect than giving them a hard shove.

When will being shot actually cause people to drop weapons, be knocked back or spun around (in the case of being hit on the side of your hip or shoulder) or dropped to the ground?

When will running at top speed and stabbing with a bayonet on the end of a heavy rifle and then driving into the victim with great force, require the stabber to STOP, work hard to pull the bayonet out and then exert energy to change directions and pick up speed again?

If you are going to insist on a damage penalty on semi-autos because they can fire more rounds than a bolt, you should allow a random generator "roll" for the chance that a bayonet thrust would not come out cleanly and would not allow you to go from 0 to 40 mph to go stab someone else.

It is hokey. It is like playing some Japanese Anime game.

It is stupid.

 

[Rabid Penguin]

Remember that a game doesn't differentiate between "dead" and "combat ineffective". Even if it doesn't kill you, a bayonet wound to the torso would take you out of the fight, and to the game that's as good as dead. It shouldn't take more than a second or two to bayonet someone. What they do need to do is introduce parrying, if that would be possible.

 

[KirbytehPink]

Have you checked your ping? 'cause I've never had to shoot someone four times unless I'm using an SMG...

I think bayonet kills are fine as they are. I don't want to stab someone only for them to instantly shoot me in the face.

 

[Sensemann]

A lot of text

I agree. And what really makes me wondering is that TWI is not addressing this issue. Close hit detection seems to be faulty and many players complain about it, but it looks like it's not on the radar of bug fixing.

It often happens to me that a German is running towards me, bayo-ready. As soon as he is around about 5 meters away from me, I can put a full ppsh magazine into him and he won't fall. And I heard many others complaining about this problem as well, so I am sure this is nothing I am making up...

Another issue I see is that for example if somebody is sprinting at me (from 12 o'clock), trying to stab me and I am running to either side (to 10 o'clock or 2 o'clock), the stabbing animation is changing instantly and still hits me. It looks completely awkward and programmed. As if at the moment of stabbing the hitbox of the target is far more increased.

On Apartments, playing russian rifleman, I even noticed when I went to the 2nd floor of the middle building, that 3 Germans, who noticed me, all unloading their guns (1 Mp 40 and 2 Kar 98), all missed me at a distance of below 5 meters, while I was raising my bayonet. The 4th guy just a split of a second later, was finally mowing me down. And I seriously believe this happened because I was not raising my bayonet anymore.

I seriously think TWI should address this issue. It just doesn't feel right.

 

[tixhal]

good point, roii4me. i don't mind the bayonet being an instant killer, but it should definitely take effort pulling it out again, at least stopping the attacker in his tracks till the blade is extracted.
a stab in the center belly likely won't get stuck, but one in the chest or back has a good chance of cracking some ribs and making it hard to pull the blade out again.

 

[LugNut]

That being said, does anyone really think it makes the RO2 a better game when you can kill someone with your bayonet instantly

No. Totally agree. I've seen the same thing, a guy sprints through a room poking multiple people without breaking stride and since enemy footsteps don't make noise, the last guy to get skewered still doesn't have a clue. At the same time you can empty a full smg magazine into a guys chest at the same range without effect.

Remember that a game doesn't differentiate between "dead" and "combat ineffective".

Noted. I don't care that one stab kills you, that's fine. I do think the entire action should take more time to complete and should cause you to come a full stop for a sec or two. As noted by the OP, it's no harder now than tagging someone as you run by.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

I've never had a problem taking anybody down with a semi-auto, especially at close range, usually one.... maybe two hits will do it... any other time when it took more than 2 hits, it's usually because I continually hit non-critical areas such as legs, arms, hand, etc.

I've bayo'd players on a number of occasions, and sometimes the first hit doesn't kill them, which is usually due to me standing still, hitting them in arms/legs, etc..... when I hit them in the chest or head, they drop..... if I am running at them and hit them, they drop.... if I am charging at them and hit them, they drop.

It seems the faster you run at your target, the more damage the bayo does.... which makes sense, due to having more thrust on impact.

In regards to "Breaking a Run", when you let out your bayo attack, you basically come to a full stop and takes time to start moving forward again.

And bandaging doesn't restore your health back to 100%, it prevents you from continuing to lose more health from bleed out.

You complain about how bayonet attacks are so easy and quick to perform in RO2, yet they're more difficult than it was in RO1, as in RO1, you could run along, constantly tap your bayo attack and insta-kill anybody in your path, without even stopping or slowing down..... at least in RO2 it puts you to an almost complete stop after a bayo attack and have to get momentum back to continue on.

I don't believe there is any penalty on damage from using a semi-auto or any other weapon.... but since bayo attacks tend to be a lot more difficult to get away with, as opposed to shooting someone at any range, with multiple bullets, most bayo attacks being an instant-kill seems reasonable to me.

I don't use bayo attacks often, and in fact, it's quite rare I'll use them.... but against those who do use them a lot.... I just have to be more aware.

If they can get that close to me to melee kill me before I gun them down or melee them back.... then they deserve the kill.

 

[Nikita]

A full-blooded bayonet thrust, or melee attack for that matter, does actually halt the momentum of the player executing it. That's plain enough for anyone to see, so lets avoid hyperbole and exaggeration.

You're right that better bandaging mechanics and wound effects are needed--shooting someone in the kneecap only to get stabbed by them is quite frustrating. In addition to that, however, the only melee tweak needed in my opinion is a minimum range for the bayonet--currently, you can 'stab' someone even if they are inches from your chest, when in actuality they would be well within the reach of your weapon.

In addition, the sound issues regarding hearing others' footsteps really have to be resolved at some point...

However, I don't think that melee kills are particularly cheap or overpowered in Red Orchestra 2 because of the game mechanics... at least not directly. Rather, the shift-zoom, the speed with which one can aim, and the lack of sway with iron-sighted weapons tend to make people a) incredibly tunnel-visioned and b) overly reliant on iron sights.

In other words, people are very, very likely to be either staring intently out of a window oblivious to the person creeping up behind them (there's a funny Youtube video on this which features a German actually yelling behind a Russian's back for about thirty seconds before stabbing him). Or, upon meeting a rifleman face-to-face at a range of three meters, they snap up into iron sights, forgetting that by doing so they limit their pheripheral vision, hamstring their turning speed, and prevent themselves from moving any faster than a walk. I play rifleman often, and I find that it is much easier to bayonet enemies trying to kill me in iron sights than enemies firing their weapons from the hip.

Hip-firing is by far the best way to deal with charging enemies, but because of the confidence people have grown to trust their iron-sights stability and speed, it seems that only Ostfront vets for the most part can use it effectively.

Besides, in close-quarters, the reason why the bolt-action rifleman often resorts to the bayonet is because he has the same problem semi-auto rifles do--a nonfatal hit on an enemy is unlikely to jostle their aim. Facing semi-automatic and automatic weapons at close range puts them at a disadvantage they must make up for.

I think this issue will improve--more sway and slower iron sights will encourage people to hipfire in close quarters when the situation demands it, and a better wounding system will both encourage riflemen to use bullets over blades as well as make shooting the legs out from under a charging bayonet-wielding maniac more practical. Fixing pheripheral indicators and footstep sounds will do the rest. Fingers crossed!

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

.... On Apartments, playing russian rifleman, I even noticed when I went to the 2nd floor of the middle building, that 3 Germans, who noticed me, all unloading their guns (1 Mp 40 and 2 Kar 98), all missed me at a distance of below 5 meters, while I was raising my bayonet. The 4th guy just a split of a second later, was finally mowing me down. And I seriously believe this happened because I was not raising my bayonet anymore.

I seriously think TWI should address this issue. It just doesn't feel right.

My recent experience a few days ago, I was a german rifleman on Barracks and a russian with an SMG was on the top floor of the NCO barracks (the middle red building?).... I could see a russian was in the cap zone due to the icon on screen, and I heard him above me shouting russian and shooting his PPSH.... so I ran up the stairs, shot one Russian as he was coming down the stairs, rounded the 2nd set of stairs to see a fellow German get PPSH'd..... so I veered to the left and down the hall where the Russian saw me and started to shoot at me..... while I dashed at him with my bayo readied for attack, I began to zig zag as best I could down the hall to prevent him from getting a decent shot.

many bullets flew around me, but I got hit in the leg, the arm and a third time.... I just got him with my bayo and he died before I dropped from my hits.

Other times when I had someone coming at me with a bayo and I had an SMG, I've kept my aim focused and unloaded on them and had no issue dropping them before they hit me.... 90% of the time I'm killed by a bayo attack, I didn't see it coming.

 

[Sensemann]

You complain about how bayonet attacks are so easy and quick to perform in RO2, yet they're more difficult than it was in RO1, as in RO1, you could run along, constantly tap your bayo attack and insta-kill anybody in your path, without even stopping or slowing down..... at least in RO2 it puts you to an almost complete stop after a bayo attack and have to get momentum back to continue on.

Come on mate. That's absolute bollocks! No way that stabbing in RO1 was easier than in RO2. Only in RO1 could it happen that 2 players are running in circles, trying to bayo each other with missing all the time. I remember endless times that exactly this happened to me in Leningrad: Me and another guy missed a close shot and we were dancing around for a minute, trying to stab each other, until a guy with an automatic arrived and put us both out of our misery. We all laughed about this fault in the game design, but well, in RO2 it's as bad as it was in RO1, just totally opposite...

 

[mowskwoz]

In pretty much any FPS game I've played, the melee just falls into a strange category of its own. RO2 is no different.

I've had plenty moments of " I shot you many many times and you managed to stab me" coupled with " I stabbed you many many times and you shot/stabbed me." tripled with "I have no idea what just happened. There was shooting and stabbing, it was all very strange and I died."

When there's a close range, instant kill weapon in conjunction with a health system, there's going to be some moments.

 

[shadowmoses]

I wanted go give an extra +1 just for your Sig
:IS2:

 

[TheRealGunther]

Im pretty happy with bayo's in Ro2 the problem is with short range hit detection and bullets.Also it isn't always hit detection just as in Ost at very close range its better to hip fire.Using iron sights its really hard to track a target and many times what looks like poor hit detection is just a flat out miss.

Not saying its all misses there is some problems with close range hit detection.I tested it myself though with fraps was going to post a video of poor hit detection at close range.To my shock what I could have swore was a sure kill in game after close slow motion replay I found many times I was just missing.

If you see a dude charging at you at very close range with a bayo.Drop the iron sights and fire from the hip it allows you to stay mobile as well making a harder target to bayo.

Btw bayos are much easier in Ro2 many close quarters bayo duels in Ost was sometimes just downright awkward.

 

[Schnitzel15]

I agree with the OP. Cause it just looks funny when some crazy Russian/German runs into a room like Rambo and stabs 4 people very fast without being hit That process really should be slower and the hit detection problem has to be fixed.

 

[k9mike]

I Have ha ethos happen to me acouple of times.....I am in very close to a person an have bayoneted them repeatedly an it shows the action an blood....but its like nothing is happening??? I'm talking like 10 times with no damage? Whatever....this whole system of bayoneting is messed up.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

Come on mate. That's absolute bollocks! No way that stabbing in RO1 was easier than in RO2.

Go and try it out..... every time I hit someone with my bayonet, they died instantly, and no matter how many times I pressed my melee button, I never once slowed down in RO1 like what happens in RO2.

Only in RO1 could it happen that 2 players are running in circles, trying to bayo each other with missing all the time. I remember endless times that exactly this happened to me in Leningrad: Me and another guy missed a close shot and we were dancing around for a minute, trying to stab each other, until a guy with an automatic arrived and put us both out of our misery. We all laughed about this fault in the game design, but well, in RO2 it's as bad as it was in RO1, just totally opposite...

Well that happened in RO:CA, RO1 and I've seen two players in RO2 going around trying to stab one another for a while.... maybe not for 1 minute, but it happens and it's just out of sheer luck or bad co-ordination that it'd last that long.

Due to most of the maps not being so expansive as most other RO1 maps, these wandering melee combats don't happen often because there's usually 2-3 other guys right around the corner to finish them off. If it was just 1 on 1, then they could probably last that long.

Large maps, small amount of players to fill those large maps = longer 1 on 1 battles.

Smaller maps, larger amount of players to fill those small maps = quicker chances of dying and less 1 on 1.

Im pretty happy with bayo's in Ro2 the problem is with short range hit detection and bullets.Also it isn't always hit detection just as in Ost at very close range its better to hip fire.Using iron sights its really hard to track a target and many times what looks like poor hit detection is just a flat out miss.

Not saying its all misses there is some problems with close range hit detection.I tested it myself though with fraps was going to post a video of poor hit detection at close range.To my shock what I could have swore was a sure kill in game after close slow motion replay I found many times I was just missing.

If you see a dude charging at you at very close range with a bayo.Drop the iron sights and fire from the hip it allows you to stay mobile as well making a harder target to bayo.

Btw bayos are much easier in Ro2 many close quarters bayo duels in Ost was sometimes just downright awkward.

Hmmm.... maybe the reason why I don't ever notice hit detection issues when I play (be that long range or close) is because my ping usually ranges between 4 and 44.

I shot one Russian down the hallway and then dashed around the corner and up the stairs (same location on Barracks but as a Commander / MP40) and another russian was coming down the stairs behind him, where I hip fired at him due to not having enough time to IS.....

My victim then responded "Holy crap Prax you flew up those stairs like a cyborg" ~ He did shoot at me and a few bullets flew by me but didn't connect.... as the conversation continued it was noticed that on that server my ping was around 32 and his was over 150 ping I believe, so it probably looked like I was bolting around pretty fast.

Now I don't think Hit Reg issues occurred there for him, but I'm just saying that with my low ping on most servers, that could attribute to me not ever experiencing hit reg issues yet since the beta.

I remember losing a round and I said "where's a tank when you need one" and I got the reply "You are the tank" which I think related to my low ping and constantly pressuring cap zones..... and the fact that I don't use wheel mouse to switch weapons but have keys bound to specific weapons for quick switching.

ok.... now I just went off on a tangent and forgot what I was talking about.... ignore everything I just said.

 

[Nikita]

I agree with the OP. Cause it just looks funny when some crazy Russian/German runs into a room like Rambo and stabs 4 people very fast without being hit That process really should be slower and the hit detection problem has to be fixed.

Another possible tweak: people killed with a bayonet should let out a yell of pain--seems quite natural to me, and prevents the sneaking-around-bayoneting-window-glued-riflemen-in-the-back phenomenon.

 

[Mekhazzio]

The "close range hit detection" isn't hit detection, it's the overly-simplified networking model. If someone is moving , aiming at them stands a pretty good chance of missing completely and it certainly won't hit them where you think it will. Nobody survives "4 shots to the gut" with a semi-auto, you're simply not hitting them in the first place. You need to lead their motion by your latency, which means you need to predict where they're going. Good luck with that when they're zig-zagging in close.

Also, the bayonet is not necessarily an instant kill. To one-hit kill, you need to either pull back the weapon for a stronger stab or have momentum from sprinting. Simply poking someone without either speed or wind-up won't kill a full health player, even if you poke them in the face. Because stabbing stops you completely and the inertia system enforces time to get speed again, either one-hit method takes a while to prepare....certainly more time than it would take to shoot or be shot, instead.

 

[TheRealGunther]

Personally I rearly have any close rang hit detection problems and yea I know its not true hit detection within like 20 feet.Most of the time like 90% for me its just a plain miss even when I think it was a hit.

The only real problem I have and I cuss it daily it seems is.Hits not registering playing rifleman alot I notice this.I take aim at a guy and he does the same I get off my shot while aimed dead center torso.He gets his shot off a fraction of a sec before I do I die and he lives.My shot just disappears in thin air knowing my aim is true.

In Ost this was np I got many double kills both players dieing this happened quite often.In Ro2 this rarely happens it seems who ever gets off the shot first gets the kill and live even when both are kill shots.

 

[hockeywarrior]

Remember that a game doesn't differentiate between "dead" and "combat ineffective".

If what you're saying is true, then the game shouldn't let a player take 2-3 rounds of 7.62 mm (or equivalent) to the torso or anywhere else and still allow players to be "combat effective." Yet it certainly does ... so under that logic your argument holds no water.