The Clot Grabbing Auto-Aim Megathread II: The Grabbening

[Ryno5660]

Once again, this isn't so much a fact of "pay attention to your surroundings." as it is a fact of "a clot might literally teleport behind you the moment you turn your back."

I think, right now, a few small issues present in the game are all combining into one big, ugly, hybrid issue. And like any good video game boss, we should focus on getting the parts down one at at time rather than focusing on the whole mess all at once.

Forgive my slightly tortured analogy there.

To be fair I agree. I try to avoid the heavier balancing topics or try to rock the boat in that area, as simply put I don't know what I could possibly suggest to that end. One balancing issue could be the result of another issue behind the scenes etc.

Like the example above, clot grab may be hated but it may get a lot more bearable when they stop (if they ever stop) teleporting to your flank.

 

[Paronine]

Once again, this isn't so much a fact of "pay attention to your surroundings." as it is a fact of "a clot might literally teleport behind you the moment you turn your back."

Yeah, the teleportation is a big issue right now. It needs a lot of work. But that's a game-wide issue. A Scrake could teleport behind you and slam you with his chainsaw, for instance. That makes teleporting the problem, not the attack itself.

I still don't care enough about the Clot turn to have a firm opinion on it. Arguing both sides just makes me think a third solution is what's best, but damned if I can come up with a good one.

 

[Horror_Duck]

Once again, this isn't so much a fact of "pay attention to your surroundings." as it is a fact of "a clot might literally teleport behind you the moment you turn your back."

I think, right now, a few small issues present in the game are all combining into one big, ugly, hybrid issue. And like any good video game boss, we should focus on getting the parts down one at at time rather than focusing on the whole mess all at once.

Forgive my slightly tortured analogy there.

That's a very good way of looking at it yes.

To be fair, hadn't even taken the teleporting into consideration with my gripes about the auto turn.

 

[Veerdin]

The clot teleporting is the main reason I, personally, find it so annoying. As well as the speed of the turn.

I Feel like I am always in danger of having my screen teleport to something I was never looking at just because I forgot to look behind myself for 3 whole seconds.

 

[Elric_de_Melnibone]

The camera turn is not the clots 'move'. Its a camera movement forced upon you by the game. The clots 'move' is grabbing you and biting you. Let's just get that sorted right now.

And I'm perfectly fine with clots grabbing me, biting big chunks out of me, and holding me in place. But I'm NOT fine with my camera being forced on the ****ing clot ****.

It's not like a clot is smart enough to yank you around going all "LOOK AT MY FACE, YOU GIT! LOOK AT MY UGLY FACE!", now is it?

No, it's going to grab the first part of your body and have a nibble.
Simple as that. I can ignore that nibble. I can and have ignored sodding minor wounds in real life before keeping focus on what's important.

In KF, that might be the Scrake or Fleshpound charging at me.

 

[ChairmanMurder[Forge]]

Also, buttproblems. I don't think you realised but you actually just agreed with one of my points.

The new auto aim system is actually a better way of killing the clot, it makes it far easier for the player... Taking away the challenge. The KF1 clots used to get at least a few hits in before you turned and killed it, even if you were focusing on killing it. The new clots don't even get a look in, they're usually dead before you even know what's going on.

But again, killing a clot is no great accomplishment, anyway. It's the easiest specimen to kill in the game. Saying "Yay, I killed a clot" is almost on the same level as "I successfully reloaded my AA12." That's why I think the arguments that are variants of "it makes the clots easier to kill" are very, very weak. Killing clots should never have taken too much effort.

It takes the challenge away from killing the clot (making it less relevent as a character in my view), and by default causes you to take your eye off of your team mates and the good of the team....in a team game. It doesn't do anything the the 'pro auto turners' are saying it does.

As I've said several times in this thread, how many times have you actively ignored the clot feebly scratching at your back to eliminate another threat you deemed more dangerous? How many times have you made the medic dart shot or the crossbow snipe that saved your team, all while ignoring that one clot?

Now you simply can't do that anymore.

The auto turn is nothing like the bloat or siren attack...its nothing like any of the other zeds attacks. Comparing them is pointless.

The camera turn is not the clots 'move'. Its a camera movement forced upon you by the game. The clots 'move' is grabbing you and biting you. Let's just get that sorted right now.

The clot is the only specimen with this mechanic. Saying "no, it's not the clot, it's the autoaim" when the clot is the only one that can do it is being borderline intellectually dishonest. Or saying it's "the game" that does it, as if the game screenflipped without there being a clot grabbing you, also ignores the simple fact of "a clot has grabbed you."

The clot teleporting is the main reason I, personally, find it so annoying. As well as the speed of the turn.

I Feel like I am always in danger of having my screen teleport to something I was never looking at just because I forgot to look behind myself for 3 whole seconds.

Let me ask: If the problematic zed spawns/teleports were completely fixed by Tripwire right now, would you still be as opposed to the the screen movement?

 

[Ceno]

Let me ask: If the problematic zed spawns/teleports were completely fixed by Tripwire right now, would you still be as opposed to the the screen movement?

While solving the teleportation issue is something that needs to happen, I think the autoturn will still remain a problem, at least for pubs. Amidst coordinated teams, I assume it's fair to say that the autoturn would die with teleportation (as Commandos/zerks and, eventually, Firebugs kill all trash before it reaches Sharps/Demos), but this will not be a sufficient solution for the majority of the playerbase.

The thing is, it's not only the Clot that has the mechanic, it's every variant of the Clot too, comprising a third of all the different enemy types. So a third of the game is capable of absolutely and definitively taking control away from the player (more than that, actually, since Clots/Cysts/Slashers spawn more often than anything else). I don't see how this is optimal game design.

The argument of being unable to ignore a clot is a valid one, but at the end of the day, I don't think it holds much weight. If a Scrake or FP is raging, your team will be focusing on that almost entirely (until we get Sharps/Demos) and will expect your focus as well. So yes, we can't afford to ignore Clots...but is that a good thing when it comes to game balance? Now what gets ignored? Crawlers? Will you prioritize killing that lone Crawler over that Fleshpound that's barreling straight for you? Probably not, but it seems like you'd now prioritize a Clot over the FP, which doesn't make much sense at all, since Crawlers are supposedly more dangerous than Clots.

 

[Horror_Duck]

Intellectually dishonest....that's..wow.
*takes breath*

Look dude, this is what I was saying about each side of the argument not getting the other sides view. I've made that point a few times now and it makes sense to most people..you're just not quite getting it tho. That's OK, I'll keep trying.

I have to go to work in a sec so I can't give this the effort it deserves right now, but I just want to make one quick point for you to think about (another that others have found makes sense of the whole situation).

You said: "As I've said several times in this thread, how many times have you actively ignored the clot feebly scratching at your back to eliminate another threat you deemed more dangerous? How many times have you made the medic dart shot or the crossbow snipe that saved your team, all while ignoring that one clot?

Now you simply can't do that anymore."

Now, how many times have you got either mobbed by several clots (on harder difficulties) or got destroyed by other zeds because you were unable to run away because if a clot grab on KF1?

Now I ask...how many times has the same set of scenarios happened on KF2? Not once to me.

The new clot grab isn't deadly, it isn't as clever and isn't as fun.

I've made some ground with these other guys with my explanations. I just don't think you're going to budge tho are you.

 

[Crusad3rMKII]

I agree that the clot grab autoaim is a bit too annoying but it seems to me that it's an intended gameplay mechanic and, as such, should NOT have an option to be disabled (that'd be like asking to disable the bile effect on the screen from bloats).
If anything I wouldn't mind it having less of a "INSTANT SNAP SCREEN" effect and instead have the screen being shaken to the side (where you're being grabbed from). It would still make the grab relevant (so it wouldn't just be ignored if need be) but it would also potentially remove the "weirdness" of it.

That said, I fully agree that the teleporting zeds are the main problem now. I had one instance on Paris where I turned the corner and I literally saw a scrake respawning there. Pls.

 

[ChairmanMurder[Forge]]

Intellectually dishonest....that's..wow.
*takes breath*

Just want to preface that "intellectual dishonesty" isn't calling you a liar, it means that I don't find your arguments logically consistent. It wasn't an insult towards your character.

Now, how many times have you got either mobbed by several clots (on harder difficulties) or got destroyed by other zeds because you were unable to run away because if a clot grab on KF1?

It's happened many times.

Now I ask...how many times has the same set of scenarios happened on KF2? Not once to me.

Very few. I will say there have been a few times when I've been forced into a 180 because of a clot, and the split seconds it takes for me to kill/punt the clot and get oriented back to wherever it was I was running to was enough times for some gorefasts and a fleshpound to thrust things into my backside.

However...

You're trying to equate two different scenarios. In KF, clots never seemed to be an issue if the team was organized and doing their job. And lucky, meaning we didn't have some ugly spawn like quad fleshpounds or three scrakes screening a mob of sirens. However, when something unfortunate bad did happen, that is when clots turned deadly. I'll gladly admit it. Sneaking up on you and locking you down often ended in your death.

But that's a different situation. In KF2, if your team is doing their jobs correctly, even a double fleshpound isn't too much of a problem. Commandos clear trash and throws grenades, Support unloads AA12, Medic heals and assists in trash cleaning, and berserker controls. Etcetera etcetera. What happens though when your Support's DPS is disrupted, even for only a second, by a clot grabbing him. What if your medic can't get a dart out in time, because of a clot grab? Now the situation's fallen apart. and even if the clots can't ninja grab you, the zeds in KF2 now move so fast that it's hard to run from them, anyway.

In short, the original clots were more deadly when things had already gone to hell. The new clots are deadly because they can cause things to go to hell.

I've made some ground with these other guys with my explanations. I just don't think you're going to budge tho are you.

Probably not, because I don't find your two main arguments convincing. (Again, not a shot at your character).

The "It ruins immersion" argument is so subjective it's hard to argue about.

Your other argument, "ninja grab is deadlier than aim-disrupting grab" isn't consistent. Yes, ninja grab can be deadlier in certain situations. I'm sure ninja grab would be deadly in certain situations in the second game. By the same token, I'm sure screen-disruption grab is deadlier in certain situations in this game, and even in the original game. I'm sure you can think of situations where a screen rotation in the original KF would have wrecked your team, especially if the grabee were a sharpshooter or a demolitions.


On a different note, how about if a successful clot grab not only disrupted your aim, but also crippled you (-50% movement speed for 1.5 seconds, perhaps) or prevented the use of sprint for the same duration.


EDIT: Crusader mentions screen shaking. I wouldn't be opposed to that, as long as the screenshaking is so severe you literally couldn't aim, even with hipfire. The new niche of this KF2 clot is to demand attention, and screw it was you were doing before.

 

[Horror_Duck]

No offence taken..I wrote that minutes after I woke up and was grumpy

I'm in agreement with your alternate idea of screen shake and a movement penalty. That would slove my issues.

Personally my biggest issue is that this auto aim takes control away from the player and I'm not OK with that. But the other points must be brought up for a successful argument.

Last thing. This may seem sort of strange after my bombardment of this thread, but, I'll still gladly play KF2 if the auto grab is kept in. Its not THAT big of an issue, it's just the only issue that I really have. We are this close to an almost perfect game (IMO) and now in EA I feel is the time to voice my concerns.

 

[MvMArcher]

I voted for the removal of the auto-aim for the simple reason that it gives me a slight felling of nausea/motion sickness.
However I do understand the reasoning for it being in the game (I also get why people say that it's a feature for console).
And it shouldn't be an option to be turned on/off at will, since it has an effect on gameplay.

My suggestion: We have 3 clots, why not make use of it?
The Slasher being the agressive one wil turn you around to face him.
The good ol Clot would just shake your view, making it harder to aim.
The Cyst the lest agressive of the 3 would just grap onto you like the clot from KF1, keeping you in place and dealing damage.

 

[ChairmanMurder[Forge]]

While solving the teleportation issue is something that needs to happen, I think the autoturn will still remain a problem, at least for pubs. Amidst coordinated teams, I assume it's fair to say that the autoturn would die with teleportation (as Commandos/zerks and, eventually, Firebugs kill all trash before it reaches Sharps/Demos), but this will not be a sufficient solution for the majority of the playerbase.

Under ideal circumstances yes, just as with the normal clot. Under normal circumstances the clots--in both games--presented little to no threat provided everyone was doing their job and/or there wasn't a streak of bad luck, i.e. a terribad spawn.

The thing is, it's not only the Clot that has the mechanic, it's every variant of the Clot too, comprising a third of all the different enemy types. So a third of the game is capable of absolutely and definitively taking control away from the player (more than that, actually, since Clots/Cysts/Slashers spawn more often than anything else). I don't see how this is optimal game design

For all intents and purposes, though, cyst = clot = slasher, though you could make the argument cyst < clot < slasher.

The argument of being unable to ignore a clot is a valid one, but at the end of the day, I don't think it holds much weight. If a Scrake or FP is raging, your team will be focusing on that almost entirely (until we get Sharps/Demos) and will expect your focus as well. So yes, we can't afford to ignore Clots...but is that a good thing when it comes to game balance?

Depends. At least one team member should be on trash cleaning even when there's an angry scrake or fleshpound bouncing around. I know in KF a not insignificant number of my teamwipes were not because of the fleshpound, but the three sirens that gave us the full opera treatment because all six of us were tunnel visioned on the FP. I didn't do much Commando or Firebug, but when I did I would completely ignore the scrakes and fleshpounds, leaving them to the Sharps, Supports, and Demos, while I shot at the mob that was invariably following said big zeds.

Now what gets ignored? Crawlers? Will you prioritize killing that lone Crawler over that Fleshpound that's barreling straight for you? Probably not, but it seems like you'd now prioritize a Clot over the FP, which doesn't make much sense at all, since Crawlers are supposedly more dangerous than Clots.

I'd prioritize the clot over the fleshpound if it were my job to trash clean. Knowing that a clot can ruin a Sharpshooter's, Demo's or Support's DPS means that, yes, I will kill the clot before I turn my attention to the raging scrake.

Concerning crawlers, you have to remember the clot has the distinction of being weak, conspicuous, and slow. The crawler is certainly weak--both in HP and direct damage--but it's not nearly as easy to spot as a power-walking clot. They're also a bit faster, except maybe when a slasher goes full on gallop. Also, from what I've heard (or thought I've heard), the crawlers are going to get the unique ability to traverse ceilings and walls. In the snap decision between shooting at the crawler or shooting at the fleshpound, I probably would ignore the crawler for the moment because I know it can't disrupt my Demo's aim.

 

[Elric_de_Melnibone]

Personally my biggest issue is that this auto aim takes control away from the player and I'm not OK with that. But the other points must be brought up for a successful argument.

In concur with all Horror has said - Taking away control from the player is also the largest issue I have with the whole mechanic.

I've started exclusively playing Zerker since I got that perk just so that I'm in control at all times.

Also, bringing it up again:

It's not like a clot is smart enough to yank you around going all "LOOK AT MY FACE, YOU GIT! LOOK AT MY UGLY FACE!", now is it?

No, it's going to grab the first part of your body and have a nibble.
Simple as that. I can ignore that nibble. I can and have ignored sodding minor wounds in real life before keeping focus on what's important.

In KF, that might be the Scrake or Fleshpound charging at me.

 

[Etronax]

As a berserker I found it pretty annoying that a clot redirected my pulverizer secondary attack to itself, shielding a scrake and effectively getting me killed. BUT then I realized that this is a good thing, because now clots can actually cause a lot more trouble than in KF 1. Apologies for not understanding earlier and voting for optional.

 

[poosh]

As a berserker I found it pretty annoying that a clot redirected my pulverizer secondary attack to itself, shielding a scrake and effectively getting me killed. BUT then I realized that this is a good thing, because now clots can actually cause a lot more trouble than in KF 1. Apologies for not understanding earlier and voting for optional.

Exactly. And when you'll reach berserker level 10, you'll unlock the skill to prevent from being grabbed.

 

[LooneyLoney]

Give this to console players its a complete insult to PC gamers, and the only thing I dislike so far. And also whats the problem if a clot grabs you and you don't spin how is that any easier? now you have to realize your actually grabbed, so the arguement that its a game mechanic and needs to stay is pure BS, its disorienting, makes you feel out of control and is just insulting to a pc player.

 

[Worth]

Why are people making a big deal out of the aim assist? That's not even close to the biggest issue.

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

Exactly. And when you'll reach berserker level 10, you'll unlock the skill to prevent from being grabbed.

For all the blunders made regarding zerk, they got this one right. Zerk immunity to clot grabs is a must, and it being a skill will be interesting once other melee perks come out. Will the Stylish Ninja perk have a similar choice or not?

 

[mikkou]

Give this to console players its a complete insult to PC gamers, and the only thing I dislike so far. And also whats the problem if a clot grabs you and you don't spin how is that any easier? now you have to realize your actually grabbed, so the arguement that its a game mechanic and needs to stay is pure BS, its disorienting, makes you feel out of control and is just insulting to a pc player.

Exactly this, Im all up for difficulty increases but this is just plain confusing and annoying = bad design. Its like after you get grabbed in a bad situation its instant game over because your view will just flip left and right every second from one direction to another making you feel like you could just lift your hands up in the air and say "I give up" then flip the desk in change.

Tripwire promised console wouldnt affect the gameplay of the PC version, so why is this here?