Support Class feels a bit lacking

[Shining Wolf]

don't forget strength (extra weight) raises weight carry to 20 so you can carry aa12+pump+boomstick or aa12+m4.
you can really put that extra ammo with 3 shotguns to use on higher difficulties.
really that is main support weakness - lack of ammo, and strength so can bring 3 shotguns fixes it.

I was actually wondering about a three shotgun loadout that's VIABLE in this game (pump, KSG and combat obviously lacking). The M4 does more damage than the pump in this game, though? That really changes the balance when talking about if it even needs a buff since that's the same amount of shells the pump has but each does more damage. Vs pump, hunting and AA12, m4 and AA12 would lack all the shells of the hunting, but what offperk weapons are available with the latter?

 

[kliziflip15]

you say it has no strengths but of course it has strengths, it has high burst damage if for very short time.

you say only situation where m4 would win is fp dying 'exactly' after you kill it but that is nonsense because it is similar to pump but with semi auto fire and 2 less shells in magazine. it is a superior weapon to pump.

i have only been playing suicidal and hoe and i find pump or m4 very useful with aa12 because i can get alot of dmg on the fp or sc's head at range before they start to attack and reload some shells so get about 10 m4 shells on them b4 switch to aa12.
obv with m4 i can do that alot better than with pump.

and also you talk about it as if it is never reloaded again - generally once sc and fp are alll dead then it is still great lke pump to switch to instantly go back to clearing trash as it also reloads individual shells.

i am not defending m4, you are on this tirade against me when i am trying to improve you attacking m4. you don't make a good argument by seeming to not be reasonable about the gun.

you talk about what difficulty i am playing on. i play suicidal with my friends for casual play (consistent winning) and hoe for a challenge.
if you want to talk about who is playing what difficulty and relate it to worth of opinion then let us clear it up. what difficulty are you playing? do you still play below suicidal? do you find suicidal easy?

all the advantages your m4 has are negated since in order to use it, you need the perk to carry more weight...by doing so you sacrifice the 10% damage from the other skill, which makes mossberg 22 dmg and m4 25 damage.....but guess what...you get 10% damage bonus on AA12 too...which you wouldnt have if you use m4 + aa12 loadout and guess what...you just negated the burst you had because you sacrifice the 10% damage on AA12s 20 shells..

good job....your 6 m4 shots + 20 aa12 shots, is now equal to 20 AA12 shots 8that have damage equal of 22 rounds)...and guess what you have just negated the damage from 2 M4 shells meaning your DPS without the damage bonus is equal to dmg bonus AA12 and roughly 3.5% shots from boomstick.

simple maths....

and , i have nothing against you...also I am very amazed by your skill that you manage to fullauto and hit those 6 m4 shells right where you want...personally I opt for even more damage and more burst with boomstick in 1 swift headshot 8with alt fire ofc)...

and no i dont hate you...

 

[tibits]

all the advantages your m4 has are negated since in order to use it, you need the perk to carry more weight...by doing so you sacrifice the 10% damage from the other skill, which makes mossberg 22 dmg and m4 25 damage.....but guess what...you get 10% damage bonus on AA12 too...which you wouldnt have if you use m4 + aa12 loadout and guess what...you just negated the burst you had because you sacrifice the 10% damage on AA12s 20 shells..

good job....your 6 m4 shots + 20 aa12 shots, is now equal to 20 AA12 shots 8that have damage equal of 22 rounds)...and guess what you have just negated the damage from 2 M4 shells meaning your DPS without the damage bonus is equal to dmg bonus AA12 and roughly 3.5% shots from boomstick.

simple maths....

and , i have nothing against you...also I am very amazed by your skill that you manage to fullauto and hit those 6 m4 shells right where you want...personally I opt for even more damage and more burst with boomstick in 1 swift headshot 8with alt fire ofc)...

and no i dont hate you...

having an equivelant of an extra 2 aa12 shells in a magazine is not the same as 6+ m4 shells.

also as i was saying can get off alot more than 6 shots on a scrake or fleshpound before they charge.
generally repeatedly firing 1 or 2 shots at them and reloading and then when they charge empty the m4 and switch to aa12.
with pump can't even get about half as many shells on sc or fp before they charge and when they do charge no point in finishing magazine because rof so slow, just switch to aa12.

then also m4 does the trash clearing job and when need to clear trash quickly it is better than pump and even ebtter than hs in many situations.


i don't know why you are talking about having anything against me or hating me, i never suggested that. my main point in this thread is that m4 needs a buff, maybe extra magazine capacity or maybe even buff by dropping it to 5 weight.

you are taking approach that it is complete useless trash and that it is somehow outclassed by pump shotgun.
twi are not idiots; they are not clueless about balancing guns and though it could maybe work better as t2 or having less weight, there are some reasons for them putting it as t3 and having the weight that it does.

 

[Arblarg]

I tried to support combo a flesh pound and jump shot a scrake today with limited success. The scrake at least stumbled when hit, so I was able to reload and do it again to finish him. The flesh pound on the other hand was a different story as the automatic reload on the hunting shotgun prevented me from throwing my other 2 obligatory grenades at the flesh pound to combo him. Hopefully automatic reload can be disabled somewhere ;_;

Support just wouldn't be the same without super happy rape time combos.

 

[Nenjin]

Support does feel like it's slower to make good on its class strengths than other classes. I dunno, I think the starting shotgun just isn't potent as the one in KF. I remember immediately being like "holy ****" with the first shotgun in KF. I found it an effective weapon even outside the perk. I haven't had quite the same reaction in KF2. When a clot can take a shotgun blast in the shoulder and keep walking....

That said, I've seen how effective it becomes at later perk levels so I'm not worried. Support was always the most killtacular class to me in KF, but it doesn't feel that way in KF2.

 

[Trotskygrad]

That said, I've seen how effective it becomes at later perk levels so I'm not worried. Support was always the most killtacular class to me in KF, but it doesn't feel that way in KF2.

as a level 17 support it's pretty killtactular.

nothing like double blasting a single doorway full of zeds and seeing +70 XP

 

[C_Gibby]

I think the dumb thing about the Benelli shotgun is its price for what it is but it's not a bad piece of kit.

IMHO the Hunty and Benelli should switch prices, but I think the pricing needs a lot of tweaking accross the board anyway.

 

[Jovial]

I tried to support combo a flesh pound and jump shot a scrake today with limited success. The scrake at least stumbled when hit, so I was able to reload and do it again to finish him. The flesh pound on the other hand was a different story as the automatic reload on the hunting shotgun prevented me from throwing my other 2 obligatory grenades at the flesh pound to combo him. Hopefully automatic reload can be disabled somewhere ;_;

Support just wouldn't be the same without super happy rape time combos.

Do you get consistent results with jump shots? I've seen stumbles from mine, but some of the time it does nothing.

And what difficulty/how many players if you do get consistent results?

 

[Shining Wolf]

I tried to support combo a flesh pound and jump shot a scrake today with limited success. The scrake at least stumbled when hit, so I was able to reload and do it again to finish him. The flesh pound on the other hand was a different story as the automatic reload on the hunting shotgun prevented me from throwing my other 2 obligatory grenades at the flesh pound to combo him. Hopefully automatic reload can be disabled somewhere ;_;

Support just wouldn't be the same without super happy rape time combos.

Players still can't ****ing switch from weapons after emptying the gun?

 

[Arblarg]

What we need is weapon discounts for perk level ups. Even something as trivial as 1% a level (rounded up to the nearest value).

 

[ellesee]

The boomstick feels weaker in this game than KF1. But support is pretty darn strong. I like the starting shotgun + AA12.

 

[Jovial]

The boomstick feels weaker in this game than KF1. But support is pretty darn strong. I like the starting shotgun + AA12.

I don't want to live in a world where you can't at least pull off a hunting shotgun jumpshot on a scrake with some prior softening up.

I still love it in KF2 though, one of the most amusing/feelgood guns to use on trash.

 

[C_Gibby]

The boomstick feels weaker in this game than KF1. But support is pretty darn strong. I like the starting shotgun + AA12.

Yeah, the boomstick was Doom-tier super shotgun. Now it's a stun machine.

I guess if you want mass murder capabilities, you go for AA12 instead of hunty this time around.

 

[mrsirr]

Players still can't ****ing switch from weapons after emptying the gun?

Yeah you can.

 

[Shining Wolf]

The boomstick feels weaker in this game than KF1. But support is pretty darn strong. I like the starting shotgun + AA12.

Hunting is also 4 weight instead of 10.

 

[FishsticksII]

Yeah, it's really surprising to see the M4 being a tier 3 Weapon since it already sucked in KF1. It has a high firerate but with only 6 shells capacity and long reload time (putting shells manually). In the end, it has an overall lower DPS than other shotguns since you spend too much time reloading the thing. High rate of fire shotgun should be magazine-based to compensate it rather than manual reloading. In this case, you technically will have more DPS using the mossberg than the M4 in the long run.

Seriously, M4 is garbage and has always been in KF1. It's really a shame that TWI chose this shotty for KF2 instead of the HSG-1. The HSG-1 is a far better tier 3 shotgun contender between the boomstick and AA12 : Automatic shotgun (even if the RoF isn't as high as the others), 12 shells capacity, magazine based reload and selection between tight and spread fire modes.
And hell, it's looks waaaay cooler with it's futuristic looks. A shame really.

Would love to see the HSG1 ingame.

 

[tibits]

Yeah, it's really surprising to see the M4 being a tier 3 Weapon since it already sucked in KF1. It has a high firerate but with only 6 shells capacity and long reload time (putting shells manually). In the end, it has an overall lower DPS than other shotguns since you spend too much time reloading the thing. High rate of fire shotgun should be magazine-based to compensate it rather than manual reloading. In this case, you technically will have more DPS using the mossberg than the M4 in the long run.

don't know yet if there is hidden damage differences between mossberg and m4 but it would take significant difference for mossberg to out damage m4 after reload. the reload speeds are already about the same.
that's like saying basic shotgun in kf1 outdamaged m4 in kf1.

shotgun: DPS - 254
ksg-1: DPS - 278
m4: DPS -1,225

shotgun: DPS after reload - 150
ksg-1: DPS after reload - 210
m4: DPS after reload - 223

http://kf-wiki.com/wiki/Weapon_damage_table
(even with individual shell reload the m4 still had more dps after reload than magazine fed pump-action, let alone single shell reload pump-action)

Seriously, M4 is garbage and has always been in KF1. It's really a shame that TWI chose this shotty for KF2 instead of the HSG-1. The HSG-1 is a far better tier 3 shotgun contender between the boomstick and AA12 : Automatic shotgun (even if the RoF isn't as high as the others), 12 shells capacity, magazine based reload and selection between tight and spread fire modes.
And hell, it's looks waaaay cooler with it's futuristic looks. A shame really.

yea a magazine fed pump action shotgun is next thing support needs though might be nice to see something else than ksg-1.
to name afew..

valtro pm-5

Spoiler!

hawk pump-action tactical:

Spoiler!

or hawk pump-action bullpup:

Spoiler!

adaptive tactical sidewinder:

Spoiler!

mag-7

Spoiler!

 

[Hemi]

Support feels weak in early levels. When reaching perk level 10 and especially 15, it becomes superb, maybe even slightly OP.

AA12 spam ftw

Even at early levels it's very powerful. Specially with the AA12 / Shotgun combo. This perk is far from weak imo.

 

[moleculo]

So I got a beta key (finally...) and I've been playing non-stop. when I saw this thread I went all WTF. Support is the most NOT-lacking class there is right now, AA12 is a monster and deals by far the biggest DPS bursts in the whole game. If anything it's commando that's lacking, his guns somehow just feel lazier compared to KF1 and he's reloading all the time.

IMO M4 should weigh the same as pump shotgun so you could use it with AA12. It's a better version of pump shotty with higher burst DPS than hunting shotty, and it feels AWESOME (best feeling gun in the game). Dunno what's not to like.

 

[C_Gibby]

You kidding? Commando is probably the most balanced perk in-game so far. The only problem with him is bizarrely high weapon prices.