Shreding of TT and PM pistols in Estonia

[GonzoX]

qft

I know it's sad from a collectors point of view, but i rather see them scrapped than in the hands of gangs or the mafia.

Which is why I stated that it would be better for them to sell those Tokarevs to American Gun Collectors. I said this at the begining of this thread.

That way they could recoop their financial loss and ensure that the guns are in a safe place and also reserved for history's sake.

 

[CaptRanger]

"[SIZE=-1]A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Winston Churchill
[/SIZE]

 

[GonzoX]

"[SIZE=-1]A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Winston Churchill
[/SIZE]

Very well said.

If the Tree Hugers would simply listen to the logic in the facts that we present to them then not all is lost.

They are simply lost children swiming in a sea of lies propagated by the liberal media talking heads.

BTW, did you know that Churchill owned a C96?

 

[Nimsky]

It's odd that you would trust your life to a goverment official with a gun that you have never met but you don't trust yourself with a gun????? What about your friends? You family? Your neighbor? What kind of untrusting society do you live in?

Now you're just turning the tables and putting words in his mouth. Where did he say he trusts a government official to use a gun? Dunno about you by the way, but over here politicians don't carry any guns. I could ask the same question to you: So you need weapons to feel safe and free? What kind of untrusting society do you live in?

My guess is that most if not all of these folks have never even been to the the U.S. or anywhere else for that matter.

True, I've never been to the U.S. I do plan to go there though. But I'm not sure if I ever want to start living there, if it's really that dangerous to live there like you're claiming.

Have you ever been in Europe, then? I've been living in the same town in the same country for 20 years and NOTHING bad has EVER happened to me or my family. I have always felt safe and never have I felt the urge to buy a gun.

What you don't seem to understand (or want to understand), is that over here there is no need to own a weapon. You keep talking as if a weapon is a crucial thing to feeling safe and being free. It is not, at least not in Europe. What freedom would you rather have: the freedom to carry weapons or the freedom to live a peaceful life without having to worry about being killed?

You still haven't answered my questions, by the way:

1. Given the choice, in which society would you rather live: in a peaceful, gun-free society where people can get along just fine (doing away with the "right to bear arms") - or an unsafe society in which it's possible to get assaulted, but WITH the right to bear arms?

2. Speaking about freedom, would you vote for a party like this? They would give people several more freedoms. More freedom is good, right?

3. Do you need guns in order to feel save and free in life? Why / why not?

You don't have to resort to personal insults, by the way. Children? I'm 20 years old, thank you. I can't say I'm unlearned. Call me whatever you want, but at least this treehugger doesn't has to fear getting killed by a gun-toting maniac

 

[Conscript]

Going by his posts, he has very mature views for a 16 year old. I would be congratulating him for that rather than dismissing him because he is young.

 

[ATIKO]

I'm not against owning guns. That is a right people have IF they can show the government they have a use for the gun. Valid uses are stuff like different forms of competition shooting, hunting and collecting. Protection from evil neighbors and dictators is not valid use for a gun, as long as you live in a democratic society a phone is a more than sufficient for protecting you from them.


The argument about criminals having guns, and therefore we should also have guns is stupid. If the criminal that is mugging you fear that you are armed, he is more likely to have a itchy trigger finger. It's better to just give them what they want and let the police go after the scum. You will get money from the insurance anyway, no need to put yourself in harms way.

 

[Lizardhands]

Very well said.

If the Tree Hugers would simply listen to the logic in the facts that we present to them then not all is lost.

They are simply lost children swiming in a sea of lies propagated by the liberal media talking heads.

Uhh, wow. Now you've just completely slipped from reasoned (to a degree) debate into ad hominem and rhetoric.

YOU HAVE WON THE ARGUMENT FOR SURE. GOOD JOB.

P.S. If "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject," what are you? You haven't changed your mind. You haven't changed the subject.


P.P.S. Churchill may have got our country through a war quite well, but that doesn't make him infallible. He's not some omniscient source of wisdom. Not everything he said is right.

 

[Col. John Matrix]

Uhh, wow. Now you've just completely slipped from reasoned (to a degree) debate into ad hominem and rhetoric.

YOU HAVE WON THE ARGUMENT FOR SURE. GOOD JOB.

P.S. If "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject," what are you? You haven't changed your mind. You haven't changed the subject.


P.P.S. Churchill may have got our country through a war quite well, but that doesn't make him infallible. He's not some omniscient source of wisdom. Not everything he said is right.

I also love the good old "it's t3h evil jesus hatin' commie lovin' librul' traitor media" argument.

 

[GonzoX]

My dearest Nimsky,

You need to get some reading comprehension skills. Go back and look at the posting that you are getting all hot and bothered about and you will see it was directed towards (and responding too) "Lizardhands". Comprende?

So if you are that "mature" 20 year old that you boast to be, I will be expecting an appology from you.

Mr. Lizard states that he is in fact 16 and gay in his profile. I am not making this up. Look for yourself before you flame me.

So people who own guns are now maniacs? Typical unifored liberal drivel. Where do you get this from? Bet I can guess where.

And to answer your questions:

1. Given the choice, in which society would you rather live: in a peaceful, gun-free society where people can get along just fine (doing away with the "right to bear arms") - or an unsafe society in which it's possible to get assaulted, but WITH the right to bear arms?

Simple, there is no such thing as a peacefull gun free society. You are living in a fantasy world. I would prefer a free society over any other. And YOU live in a peacefull society BECAUSE of guns. Our guns to be specific, like the Garand rifle. Again, go back and re-read your history books.

2. Speaking about freedom, would you vote for a party like this? They would give people several more freedoms. More freedom is good, right?

I will vote independently. Who I vote for is none of your damn business.

3. Do you need guns in order to feel save and free in life? Why / why not?

Owning a firearms give peace of mind. Who is going to protect your family when the cops take 20mins to get to you? What if 100 years from now your great grand son needs the gun rights that you threw away to survive?

Honestly, have you even bothered to read anything I have posted here. Is it not sinking in at all? I have essentially answered all your questions ten times over yet you are still in the dark. Why is that?

I'm not against owning guns. That is a right people have IF they can show the government they have a use for the gun. Valid uses are stuff like different forms of competition shooting, hunting and collecting. Protection from evil neighbors and dictators is not valid use for a gun, as long as you live in a democratic society a phone is a more than sufficient for protecting you from them.


The argument about criminals having guns, and therefore we should also have guns is stupid. If the criminal that is mugging you fear that you are armed, he is more likely to have a itchy trigger finger. It's better to just give them what they want and let the police go after the scum. You will get money from the insurance anyway, no need to put yourself in harms way.

OMH, you are a perfect example of a brainwashed liberal.

If he was raping your girlfriend would you sit there and let him for fear of getting shot?
I pitty your girlfriend.

Answer this question for me?

If your government became oppressive and told you to surrender your personal firarms, what would you do?

a)Give them your guns and behave or

b)Tell them to take a flying leap.

Which is it?

It's ironic how Europeans have forgotten that their contries were liberated at the hands of allied soldiers with *gasp* those evill guns.

Is patriotism trully that dead in Europe? Do the liberals trully reign supreme there?

Uhh, wow. Now you've just completely slipped from reasoned (to a degree) debate into ad hominem and rhetoric.

YOU HAVE WON THE ARGUMENT FOR SURE. GOOD JOB.

P.S. If "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject," what are you? You haven't changed your mind. You haven't changed the subject.


P.P.S. Churchill may have got our country through a war quite well, but that doesn't make him infallible. He's not some omniscient source of wisdom. Not everything he said is right.

Well here is a clue for you my young gay friend (according to you).

I am trying to change your mind on the issue with actuall facts. But don't let mere facts get in the way of your inane rhetoric.

So who here is really a fanatic?

Gosh, I guess Washington and Jefferson were fanatics also, based on your defenition.

I also love the good old "it's t3h evil jesus hatin' commie lovin' librul' traitor media" argument.

Yeah I was wondering when somebody was going to revert to the "all gun owners are inbred rednecks" argument.

That's usually reserved as a last ditch insult for those liberals who can't come up with any actual logic to counter a valid argument.

Forget the facts, lets just revert to stereotyping Wheeeee!

 

[Lizardhands]

Gonzo, the second you started talking about "brainwashed liberals", you lost any credibility you might have had.

Even though my profile is a joke, my sexuality is none of your ****ing business and has no place in debate. The same goes for my age.

You are not talking about facts. You are repeating the same bull**** over and over again, assumedly because you think it's true. There is no reason to own guns from such ridiculously irrational fears like dictators and all that bull****. And as for us being a peaceful society "because of guns", well, I think the modern saying "fighting for peace is like ****ing for virginity" says it all.


MY DEFINITION? MY ****ING DEFINITION? You quoted that and suggested I was a fanatic from it! How is it my definition? Do you suffer from short-term amnesia? Can't you READ?!


My GOD.

 

[Pycckuu]

Guys, relax please.

/edit Hmm, thought I'd add some substance to this post. Gonzox, we know you like your guns, but there is no need to attack Lizard personally. He can be a black homosexual jewish gypsy from eastern europe with communist ideas, but that doesn't belong in this conversation nor does it give you the right to attack him, nor does it make his argument any less valid.

 

[GonzoX]

Gonzo, the second you started talking about "brainwashed liberals", you lost any credibility you might have had.

Even though my profile is a joke, my sexuality is none of your ****ing business and has no place in debate. The same goes for my age.

You are not talking about facts. You are repeating the same bull**** over and over again, assumedly because you think it's true. There is no reason to own guns from such ridiculously irrational fears like dictators and all that bull****. And as for us being a peaceful society "because of guns", well, I think the modern saying "fighting for peace is like ****ing for virginity" says it all.


MY DEFINITION? MY ****ING DEFINITION? You quoted that and suggested I was a fanatic from it! How is it my definition? Do you suffer from short-term amnesia? Can't you READ?!


My GOD.

If the shoe fits then wear it. Not my problem. Deal with it.

Tin foil hat asside, the terms "brainwashed liberals" and "liberal media" are right on the money.

When have you EVER seen the media to be pro-gun?

Ill wait for the crickets to chirp on this one.

 

[Lizardhands]

I know this is a crazy concept for you to understand, but in most European countries, news corporations have to, by law be impartial and balanced in their reporting.

Quite apart from that, I can make my own decisions. I don't just listen to what I'm told by the media, and don't assume I do just because I'm a leftist.

I could easily counter your argu-... er, pointless ad hominem by saying you've been brainwashed by right-wing American media like Fox News, but I don't know that and I know that people form their own opinions and don't just believe what they believe because of the media.

P.S. I'm not a "liberal", I'm a socialist.

 

[GonzoX]

I know this is a crazy concept for you to understand, but in most European countries, news corporations have to, by law be impartial and balanced in their reporting.

Quite apart from that, I can make my own decisions. I don't just listen to what I'm told by the media, and don't assume I do just because I'm a leftist.

I could easily counter your argu-... er, pointless ad hominem by saying you've been brainwashed by right-wing American media like Fox News, but I don't know that and I know that people form their own opinions and don't just believe what they believe because of the media.

P.S. I'm not a "liberal", I'm a socialist.

Ballanced reporting by law? Really?

What good thing have they reported about the U.S. or Bush lately then...

Ill wait.

Impartial European news media? Yeah right. What Alternate Universe do you live in?

 

[Lizardhands]

They can't report anything good about Bush if he doesn't do anything good.

The "Alternate Universe" [sic] is called Europe. It's not that great, but before you start criticising its media perhaps you should come over here and try sampling a bit of it.

Sure, it's not 100% bias-free all the time, but it's close enough.

What "alternate universe" do you live in that all of Europe is "liberal" anyway? A while ago a fascist almost won the French elections. Also, Germany has a centre-right leader, as did Italy up until recently.


You clearly have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

 

[-=KnIfE=-]

GonzoX and lizard...

you can both argue as long as you want.... IN PM'S, but right here it is blatantly obvious that nothing will be agreed upon.

You both, though GonzoX in particular, need to realise that people have different opinions and that opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all stink to someone else.

This is a case of culture differences between US and EU which we see all the time.

I'm not gonna close this thread as it started off as a legitimate topic, but any more US or EU bashing, or anti/pro gun ownership **** starts up again and I, or another moderator, will close it.

-=KnIfE=-

 

[[-project.rattus-]]

And YOU live in a peacefull society BECAUSE of guns. Our guns to be specific, like the Garand rifle. Again, go back and re-read your history books

Talking about history: it was rather the Mosin Nagant 1891/30 that allowed us to be free than the Garand. Quite ironic IMHO

It's ironic how Europeans have forgotten that their contries were liberated at the hands of allied soldiers with *gasp* those evill guns.

Oh, on the contrary, Europeans have NOT forgotten that it was the guns who put them into misery beforehand

If he was raping your girlfriend would you sit there and let him for fear of getting shot?
I pitty your girlfriend.

Bad example. Firstly, while he would be raping, he wouldn't be able to shoot at me. Secondly, I'd never shoot in that situation because of the immenent danger that my girlfriend is harmed by the very shot I fired. I know some tricks to dislocate shoulders, break some bones and other nifty little things that would put my girlfriend out of danger without endagering someone else or killing the "evildoer". After all, self-justice is only an euphemism for anarchy. And, if he was raping (or trying to) he wouldn't be that aware of the situation to see me coming, anyways.

After all your factual arguments, I still don't feel the urge to own a gun, because not only in the Netherlands, but also in Austria can feel safe and free without having to own a gun.

And in conclusion: If have nothing against persons who own guns legally, but I dislike how they seem to look down on "unarmed tree huggers" (that one was cute ). It just pours fuel on the prejudice that owning a gun is needed to cover up and compensate some other personal insecurities...

EDIT: sorry, knife's post wasn't here when I started typing! I'll still let it stand here, for the mods to decide to delete it.

 

[Lizardhands]

GonzoX and lizard...

you can both argue as long as you want.... IN PM'S, but right here it is blatantly obvious that nothing will be agreed upon.

You both, though GonzoX in particular, need to realise that people have different opinions and that opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all stink to someone else.

This is a case of culture differences between US and EU which we see all the time.

I'm not gonna close this thread as it started off as a legitimate topic, but any more US or EU bashing, or anti/pro gun ownership **** starts up again and I, or another moderator, will close it.

-=KnIfE=-

Yes'm.

 

[KrazyKraut]

Which is why I stated that it would be better for them to sell those Tokarevs to American Gun Collectors. I said this at the begining of this thread.

That way they could recoop their financial loss and ensure that the guns are in a safe place and also reserved for history's sake.

First of all this is still a government, not a company. When has a government ever made an efficient financial decision?

Still: From our point of view it sounds all too easy. But you have to keep in mind that a lot of logistics are needed for selling these guns to arms traders. First you have to find them, then you have to make a contract and then you'll have to ship these things to them... via a safe way. That means A LOT of transaction costs. I don't want to go into detail, but a thousand TTs simply are hardly enough for them to recoop.

 

[{YBBS}Sage]

I just wanted to point out that this thread, and many others, has gone downhill after posts of a certain member who'll remain nameless at this time, who seems to feel the need to start flame-wars.

Kraut: I don't think it would have been THAT hard to shuttle them off to reputable dealers. There are importers who would have loved to get their hands on a lot that large, or even just part of it, I'm sure.

What kills me is that this is pretty much a slap in the face to the intellect of the people in Estonia. It's like putting a bandaid on a bruise to get your kid to quit crying. It's not doing any good, but they think the bandaid is helping, so they'll calm down a bit, just because you seemed to care.

The proceeds of the sale of those pistols could have gone directly into things that could have prevented more crime than shredding ten times their number. Things like education, community programs, youth mentoring... the list goes on. It's mind-boggling when politicians see the need to use a bandaid to make their citizens feel better, when they could actually do some good in eliminating the causes of what's going on.

I feel bad for the Estonians now.