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Squad RO Tactical Realism Community

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#82
Nagels said:
You're talents are truly boundless AdlerHans
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And I should take this to mean?

Good sir I've a talent for getting myself in trouble with mods :)( ) for speaking my mind (hence why all my posts were censored on an older account that has been here since retail) and I would not be afraid to do so.

To be honest, you are realism clans....literally, to not be sorted in that category is almost a joke. ICM plays by realism rules with clan tags, wouldn't that make them a realism clan? Take it up with Nyu (at least that's my stand), he controls the list, right now you've made a duplicate thread for....realism...clans with tactical out front.

That's all from me.
 
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#84
Okay, here are my thoughts on this whole "tactical realism" thing. I vividly remember the stupid rules from the ETO in COD. Things such as limited sprinting because "ww2 soldiers were carrying 60 lbs. of gear into battle" so they could only sprint about 30 feet or "grenade spamming" where you throw a grenade where you think the enemy might be based on the setup of the terrain, or even the dreaded hip shooting? I mean come on now, we are talking about conscript troops handed submachine guns in WW2. You don't think that they were running around and spraying shots at the enemy? Of course they were. They did not have the weapons nor the training of say, the current 1st world militaries have today where soldiers are trained to fire only accurate aimed shots from their weapons. I can understand not hopping around like an idiot, but trying to limit things such as using grenades to clear choke points or key areas in the terrain features on maps is ludicrous. Also, about the example of hip shooting where you see your enemy 300 yards away on the open steppe; how many maps in RO have those kinds of engagement ranges? Last I checked most of the infantry maps are urban terrain where the shots are measured more in feet than in yards. Also, why would I use iron sights on an smg if I am clearing rooms? When you have the iron sights up, you are only going as fast as if you were prone crawling. I know with a short weapon like an ar15, I can move fast and bring my weapon up very quickly, fire off a few shots, and do this while moving, but you can't do this in RO. The game has large limitations when it comes to realistic infantry combat. One way to solve this problem is to have multiple speeds for when your iron sights are up, but that isn't going to happen.

Also, please explain to me the definition of the terms "unreasonable suspicion" and "switching from standing to prone excessively" is. I guess the wording must have me confused. To me that is saying that if I think the enemy might be there because of the layout of the map, then it is not okay to throw a frag there and if I am getting shot at and there is a ditch between myself and the enemy that will give me cover, then it is not okay to do if I went prone, say, 8 seconds before because I was getting shot at.

My opinion is that the realism community should mainly focus on playing the same way we have been playing. In the EFO we haven't had any rules regarding actual tactics, since it hasn't been an issue. I mean if you really want to have tactical realism, the Russian tanks and infantry should outnumber the Germans 10 to 1 at least in every battle, but that wouldn't be much fun would it? I think the rules that we have set in the EFO have worked wonderfully considering that they give us some limitations so we can have a more interesting experience than normal match play, but not so many which would reallly limit the amount of people that want to join our units. Let's face it, the RO community isn't anything in size compared to DOD and COD, so by adding more rules, we are just alienating more and more of the player base, thus hurting us. We are having a hard enough time as it is to get recruits (well, some units are), so why make it worse?
 
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#85
Odd how these discussions often turn into dis-agreements that pertain to semantics and generally have nothing to do with the theory or premise behind the original idea.

I invite everyone to (re)read the original posters ideas that he opened up for discussion. (I added the "Tactical" in the quote..)
Please remember that he asked a representative of interested clans to speak for that clan.


Tactical Realism Guidelines

These are along the lines of where we're coming from.......again its important as Mental stated to input your own ideas and proposals.
Suggest each clan thats has an interest in this put a clan rep forward and we can jointly reaffirm and decide whats acceptable.


1. Show civility and respect to all players on the server.

2. All players are expected to abide by Tactical Realism (using iron sights, tactical movement and building assault, etc.) such as in real world conflict zones.

Please do not attempt the following in game;

Run & Gun :
Definition:Firing your weapon from a hip position while not in iron sights mode, a burst of fire is acceptable if you are surprised by an adversary, however, you then need to raise iron sights.
Zig zagging while hipshooting.

Bunny Hopping:
Definition:Jumping up and down in order to dodge bullets.

Flopping :
Definition:Switching from standing to prone excessively.

Nade Spam:
Definition: Randomly bombarding an area with grenades on a unreasonable suspicion of enemy presence or intent to spawn kill.
Room clearing prior to an assault is acceptable .
Nading enemy smoke is acceptable

Spawn exit Camping, spawn exit bombardment is unacceptable.
Click to expand...

I understand the need and desire to distinguish between historical realism and tactical realism interests. Consider the terms "historical" and "tactical" to be sort of plume de nom's or pseudonyms that distinguish one from the other. Forget the semantics, deal with the heart of the topic at hand. (As I digress into that which I am lecturing against....:rolleyes: )

A thought occured to me as I was reading the discussion about lives and respawns. Often having one life (while truly realistic) severely limits the playability of some excellent maps. In general, the current number of default respawns are not the answer for a gamestyle such as this either. Perhaps then, a player (or team) could be severely limited in the number of respawns available. The number could be determined on a map by map basis. Say instead of the normal 250 reinforcements a team might have, limit them to 30 or 45 (15 players x 2 or 3). Thus giving players 2 or 3 lives instead of 1. They are free to help their squad immediately, but still must be extremely careful.

Hmmm. It may take a long time to determine a good balance per team for a given map. Perhaps a ratio of the default spawns? I mention balance, because if I understand the premise, this is about enjoying a playing style of "tactical" realism and not historical balance.

Long winded, I know.
But just a thought from the sidelines.

Floyd
 
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#86
Unfortunately, about the only way to enforce some of these 'rules' is to have witnesses AND a FRAPS-type movie grab of the action as it unfolds. I would much rather play with teammates and opponents who comply with campaign rules on their honor than have everyone trying to trip each other up in uncorroborated rules violations. In any case, how do you adjudicate a suspected rules violation during the game? You drive on and conduct a post-battle investigation, at which point whatever was done is done and not much can be gained, other than either a) censuring or banning that particular player, or b) forfeiting the battle to the other team. Either way may be effective at the time, but counter-productive in the long run. (Not having personally participated in the EFO style of play, I can't comment on specifics, only in generalities of the game itself.)

If a mod or set of mods can be introduced to limit certain kinds of actions or behaviors, by all means implement it on your server to your heart's content; realize, though, that (just as Borodin noted in his previous post) applying more layers of rules to an already hard game may serve only to alienate some potential players- including those who (for our purposes) might become potential unit members.
 
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#88
Floyd thanks for adding a positive suggestion, I'm sure the TR leaders will look into it, and also seeing the intent of establishing TR as laid out by Nagels in the opening post.

Rohm as for the rules they are guidelines that set the tone of a given server. They as with some real life rules are from time to time left open for interpretation and enforcement. ( They are very basic and easy to comply with ) The idea is to join a TR server with the understanding of the style of play on it. Admins are not just present to kick, ban players or act like tyrants but to ensure a smooth running and enjoyable game.


Borodin I have to take exception with your following statement

I mean come on now, we are talking about conscript troops handed submachine guns in WW2. You don't think that they were running around and spraying shots at the enemy? Of course they were. They did not have the weapons nor the training of say, the current 1st world militaries have today where soldiers are trained to fire only accurate aimed shots from their weapons.
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I looked for these stats and pulled them from this source, see the second paragraph ( http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/478-992.aspx ), Somewhere in my brain housing group I recall hearing this over the course of time. Also one could misinterpret your statement as a slur towards the real world Vet's of WWII, I'm assuming it was not.

I hope all the future posters will try and stick to the main topic and submit constructive ideas, it is always easy to be negative.

 
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#89
Interesting comments and ideas. Floyd, you waited a while to post but made a valid point. The whole idea is that we want to know what will 'work' in this thread. We WANT constructive criticism we WANT ideas. In short we WANT it to work. It won't take over from 'Historical Realism' neither would we want it to. If people want to model their clan on an Historical Unit thats fine, If they want ranks medals etc thats fine too.If they want to impose a series of rules to govern how the game is played, I have no problems with that. The idea behind "Tactical Realism" is to play the game in a "Realistic" fashion (in as much as ANY game can be". It matters not whether you are in 5th SS (used as an example only) or ~+Uberpwners+~ as long as you are prepared to play by those rules. The actual ideals of play aren't THAT far removed from what plays in 'Historical Realism' so its odd that peeps who presumably already play by those rules in their leagues find problems with the idea in this thread.
 
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#90
The thing with old school realism players is this. We dont have any problems with this RnG, nade spamming crap. Not ever have I taught my recruits or any member not to RnG, or nade spam. Nor has any complaint ever happened in an EFO match or a scrim due to these 'un-realistic' things.

We have a tactical plan, we execute it. Our foundation, so to speak, is based off of realistic play so these issues have never come up. I dont know if that makes sense, I can clarify if it doesnt.
 
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#92
Well ok I'll throw in the general view point of the 181. We will support and join in any sort of scrim/league you guys come up with. All that we ask is that you seriously reconsider you're view on R&G and nade spamming. You don't think the common Russian soldier in Stalingrad was liberal with his use of grenades?. Of course, even so much as a suspicion that you think the enemy is there, you're gonna toss a nade or two. Its an effective low cost way of killing him. Sure I mean it gets excessive on Danzig (which personally I think is fun as hell), but thats the most extreme of examples. As for R&G, Borodin has already expressed our concern over it. Anyway you guys do what you want, just give us the word when you're ready to get some fighting going. :D
 
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#93
We're not looking to implement any specific tactic guidelines.

The notion is to have a general set of guidelines by which players in general would abide by.

Tactical doctrine is a clans own affair, we're primarily concerned with setting up an across the board set of guidelines.

To do this we need the input of all clans interested.

To achieve the input of all clans we need delegated representation from each clan.

So who's going to tie the bell around the cats neck so to speak?:D

C'mon guys and nominate your clans rep please.
 
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#94
Amsel said:
1.I dont remember the name of everybody who has ever RnGed me.
2.You guys seem keen on setting up a tactical realism council to discuss standard rules on servers. Yet you dont seem to keep the standards you want to implement.

You dont run realism during mon-fri yet you claim to be a TR unit. This can only be confusing for pubs. why not just do 1 or the other....

Ende, danke
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We dont claim to be a tactical realism unit, we claim to play both flavours of RO, tactical realism and vanilla. I think ive said this about 5 times now, surely its starting to sink in?

HansAdler, we did take this up with Nyu, read my initial request to be included on the list on about page 3 of the "old" realism clans thread, this request was refused, the remainder of the thread followed.

Floyd, excellent post and most excellent sig

181 guys (and other EFO clans) I thought nade spamming and run n gun was outlawed by the EFO? At least that is the story we were told when we originally asked for definitions of what was and wasnt permitted in realism battles.
 
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#99
flook said:
181 guys (and other EFO clans) I thought nade spamming and run n gun was outlawed by the EFO? At least that is the story we were told when we originally asked for definitions of what was and wasnt permitted in realism battles.
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Its more of a curiosity rule the anything else. We all do it (and i wouldn't call it nade spamming). Just not to the extreme. Anyway Borodin will be our unit's rep so I'll let him do the talking from now on.
 
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