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Beta Map RO-Gorlitz Beta 3

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#184
Part_No.472G-9 said:
This is my current favorite, but...

I suppose the idea is for the Germans to just hold out until the time runs out, not to "win", but I still can't help but feel demoralized when playing on the German side. It might be historically accurate (and fun) for the Russians to steamroll through the city with tanks, but the more I play as a German, the more lopsided it feels.

If the Russians have two tankers who really know what they're doing, they hardly need infantry at all. I love to play as a Russian tanker, but I'm starting to feel really guilty about it, almost like I'm cheating. I like the map a lot, but the more I play the more I see people on the German side just quitting out of frustration.
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Couldnt agree more,waiting between tanks' shots ,trying to rush objective,staying away from walls etc. etc. only to waste your single Panzerfaust to kill that invincible APC gunner who is pinning down your people, then face the might of russian armor without any panzerfausts left and finally get vaporized and repeat the process.
 
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#185
Sichartshofen said:
Indeed, you can only put up with being killed by HE so many times. In most cases you get blown apart by a HE shell when you reach the frontline, respawn, walk to the frontline again and get blown away by another HE shell. After that you just get sick of it.
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I mostly agree with this. There are a few areas where the Germans get funneled into open streets/corridors and just get pasted with HE if the Russian Tanks are in the right positions. Realistically, I would imagine they would work there way thru some buildings to get where they are going.

Perhaps in these areas (past the second bridge comes to mind...), open up a building to give the Germans an alternate (and realistic) route so as not to be forced thru these bottlenecks? Just a suggestion....
 
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#186
Personally I think a big part of solving the problem will be repacing the T-34s with SU-76s.

First, I think it'd feel more like an urban assault with actual assault guns, but on top of that, the open top and lack of a turret would help cut down on the ability of the vehicles to just park somewhere and cover a huge range of space. Might also consider either reducing the total number to two, increasing tank respawn time, or both.

I still think the Germans can win if they play smart and use space well, but some of that will involve things that might seem counter-intuitive to most gamers (IE: give up a position to get to a better defended position).
 
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#187
Solo4114 said:
I still think the Germans can win if they play smart and use space well, but some of that will involve things that might seem counter-intuitive to most gamers (IE: give up a position to get to a better defended position).
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What I've tried to do is force the germans into a more realistic defence rather than simply attacking back, and a large part of that is having players fall back rather than being killed. With the attackers, the idea is that their positioning will be just important as individual actions, so holding particular street or bridgehead will be critical to the capture of the next objective. This is sort of the general goal of the map gameplay.

I haven't had a chance to play recently, but to be honest, I haven't seen firsthand the things mentioned in the last couple posts. When I've played as a german, I've never been in a situation where we were completely bottled in at some chokepoint, so I'm not quite sure how to go about addressing this. I will look at some of the paths, maybe open them some at the particularly tight spots like where the germans come in to defend the two bridges. I am also in the process of adding a bit more cover to some places, I will continue this with an eye to helping the defence move about. Hopefully these will help with the problems that people are having as germans.

Another thing I had been thinking about was the possibility of limiting the soviets to a single tank. This was the original plan, and I added the su76 more as an experiment. Maybe a single tank (t34 most likely) would make the defence a little less frustrating? Another benefit that I see in it is that it would force the tankers into a single tank, maybe with a driver and a gunner the tank would be more inclined to advance rather than snipe at the german defence?
 
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#188
FlashPanHunter said:
Another thing I had been thinking about was the possibility of limiting the soviets to a single tank.
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I think this would help a lot to make the map more fun, and also add the other russian rifles please! I much prefer the longer rifle for the accuracy and less sway (it seems to start swaying much quicker with the 1 with the permanent bayo). Maybe add the SVT to squad leader too to give them an extra help (i think you only get an SMG atm). Also take the semi auto from the Shutze class and put it in the Assault Trooper class, should help with balance. You might need to limit the Assault class a bit though, maybe half assault troopers, half riflemen (with KAR + nades only)
 
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#189
I think actually the better approach is for the Universal Carriers and tanks to do precisely that -- snipe at the enemy. In other words, wear down their defenses so that the infantry can push forward. That's how I'd do it. I'd never let myself get in close enough to get picked off by a panzerfaust. If I did get fausted, it'd be because someone managed to sneak by.


Like I said, I think you can maintain balance through the use of assault guns rather than tanks. A single tank is essentially three weapons in one: two MGs, and one main cannon. The assault gun is JUST the cannon and has no MG. It's also open-topped and therefore vulnerable to grenades and (if you get above it) small arms fire. Plus, I think the assault guns are less prone to the "ricocheting panzerfaust" thing that angled tanks can have sometimes.

Meanwhile, the UCs provide mobile MG support. Thus, you split the role of the mobile MG platform and the mobile cannon into two different units.

I think one of the points that is most problematic for the Germans is when they come around the corner before they get to the two bridgeheads. They can be flanked by a tank to their left if the Russians have blown one of the 88's barriers, and they can have a tank coming up from the bridges to their front. You get two tanks on you, especially one that's providing enfilading fire, and you are in serious friggin' trouble. The thing is, because it's a capture point AND one of the last two or three, the Germans will fight tooth and nail for it (or at least get killed a lot) trying to hold on to it.

This is, I suspect, the main spot where people start complaining "Man, I run around the corner and all of a sudden I'm a grease-stain. And then I just have to run again." That's because by this point, the Germans are spawning at the railyard and have at least a 30 second run to get to the position, followed by something like a 20-30 second spawn clock to wait for.


I agree that players need to learn to (a) keep their heads down and just be in the area rather than trying to kill the enemy constantly, and (b) learn when to abandon a position for a better defended one. That, however, does not come naturally to most gamers who have been conditioned to attackattackattack killkillkill and that if you're not doing one of those things, ZOMG!!11! you're being useless to the team.
 
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#191
Actually, I also would like to see a new anti-tank weapon for the germans.
Played some rounds today and have to say: A really good map.
There is just one problem: The Panzerfaust is a weapon not designed for long ranges. It is extremly difficult to hit some tank at the other side of the bridge, while it can kill every german soldier trying to reach the Panzerfaust crate.
I see three possiblities of making it a bit more fair:
1 - One StuG for the germans. Just one tanker, maybe not a commander, just the driver. So, the soviets would have one T-34 and one SU-76 against one german StuG.
2 - Usable PaKs. Maybe functioning 88's. You would have to remove most of the actual models or let them look like destroyed, but a few could be usable. But it would mean a lot of work to implement it. Maybe the guys from After-Hourz could help - but they are concentrating on there BT-7 tank.
3 - Long range AT weapon for the Germans. Very hard to do. Would mean the introduction of one or two places for the Panzerj
 
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#192
Mannable 88s would totally flip the balance of the map. I'd be against those.

Any antitank rifle would pretty much be useless, too, I think (or at least SHOULD be useless).

Honestly, I think the balance is MOSTLY good, it's just that there's maybe one too many tanks. I think a single T-34, or a single T-34 and a single SU-76, OR two SU-76s (my preferred loadout) would be about perfect. That's enough armor to get the job done without being overwhelming.

I think a big part of the T-34s' dominance on this map has to do with the fact that they have better armor, multiple MGs, and are invulnerable to grenades. Their turret also lets them cover a 360 degree arc without turning the hull. The SU-76 has weaker armor, no MG, is vulnerable to grenades and (I think) small arms fire, and lacks a turret.

Although these are subtle disadvantages, I think they could make a difference in a map like this.
 
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#194
PTRD isn't historical accurate -> they were used (by the Germans) to '43
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Actually in 1942 the Germans stopped using antitankrifles. After 1942 most anti-tank rifles were converted to anti-tank grenade launchers. I dont know how common they were but I do know the when the Panzerfaust was produced it totally replaced the antitank grenade launcher.
 
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#195
If panzershrecks were available, I would absolutely include them in this map, but be honest, the panzerfausts are pretty acurate over a distance in the right hands. Question though, not really important, but would panzershrecks be used in this type of environment, I was under the impression they were pretty diffucult to use, especially in enclosed areas.
 
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#196
In regard to recent comments:
- 1 T34, three tanker roles.
- No Unis other than the initial spawn. Once they are lost, they are lost. Force the infantry to advance with their T34.
- Less Panzerfausts.
- IF you stick with 2 T34s, try a Stug. It would be very limited in use.
- A few openings through building blocks for the infantry to escape the bottlenecks at certain points.

In the end, lots of possibilities, but go with what you envision. Much like Berezina, a big map requires players to realize new ways to play and counter-attacking usually isn't such a good idea on the defenders part. Getting people to play the 'map' and not the 'game' is tough.
 
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#199
FlashPanHunter said:
If panzershrecks were available, I would absolutely include them in this map, but be honest, the panzerfausts are pretty acurate over a distance in the right hands. Question though, not really important, but would panzershrecks be used in this type of environment, I was under the impression they were pretty diffucult to use, especially in enclosed areas.
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Did you try limiting the amount of Panzerfausts people can carry with the PanzerFaustAmmo.uc?
 
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#200
If panzershrecks were available, I would absolutely include them in this map, but be honest, the panzerfausts are pretty acurate over a distance in the right hands. Question though, not really important, but would panzershrecks be used in this type of environment, I was under the impression they were pretty diffucult to use, especially in enclosed areas.
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Well enclosed areas that also applies to the panzerfaust and to really all rocket projectiles. The back blast can kill and burn if improperly fired the soldalt had to make sure he wasnt to close to walls or obstructions there are plenty of good areas in your map where theey could be used.
The Germans did use the "Panzerschreck" in city fighting there are a lot of pictures and accounts documenting this(like Berlin) but also by this time the longer range Panzerfaust 100 was in production which had an accuarate range of 100 meters.
the verison which would be in use in your map would be using the: Raketenpanzerb
 
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