Rebalancing pistols: unique, healthy niches
- Thread starter Captain Howel
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@Cap Howel
Note: Xbow is still viable on HoE with its firerate.
We can take from Eldiablo's post
+1 for Hunting Rifle
Note: Xbow is still viable on HoE with its firerate.
We can take from Eldiablo's post
+1 for Hunting Rifle
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There are so many things wrong with that sentence. (And the post in general)
You are aware the is only one, as you put it, "sniper" in the game? Its the m99, which shouldn't even be there, but I digress.
Another thing, a "Sniper" is not a gun. It's a person. The word sniper is a adjective (That has morphed into a noun) that is meant to describe an excellent marksman. It comes from the word 'Snipe' which is the name of a species of bird which are notoriously elusive to hunt. If a marksman possessed the skill to kill a Snipe, he was referred to as a 'Sniper'.
Sorry for that, I hate to sound like a snob but I have a pet peeve about people calling weapons snipers. Much like the Clip vs. Magazine argument. Or the Shell vs. Bullet vs. Round vs. Cartridge argument. If you must, refer to them as Sniper Rifles. But again I stress, There is only one "Sniper's rifle", according to the connotation of the word, ingame. The m99. (Technically, any rifle in the hand of a Sniper is considered a sniper's rifle. So the LAR and EBR could count as snipers. Regardless of scoped capability.) The crossbow is a crossbow, not a rifle. So it doesn't count.
I don't mean to sound hostile or elitist, just my words tend to mirror the post at which I am commentating on. And yours was very "know-it-all" in tone. And clearly factually wrong. Now if you think those are the guns better suited to your liking, then good. I am genuinely happy you found your gun. (I prefer the LAR over the M14 myself, I am a scrub at using the M14. But the M14 statistically is better in nearly every way.)
But don't go claiming fact when its really opinion. Especially in this forum. This is a pretty friendly place, as long as you don't cause a ruckus. Or dispute what Falz says. Rule #192 Never dispute DarkFalz. (Followed closely by Rule # 201, Never dispute ArmoredPuppy, especially on loadouts.)
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I'm a "real sharp" and I never run m14. That loadout may have been the best before the crossbow buff, but as it is now it's difficult to think of a single situation where I wouldn't go xbow+hc+mk. M14 is inferior to pistols at trash clearing mainly because of the recoil, and inferior to the crossbow at killing scrakes and fps again because of recoil and now firing rate. It's really unfortunate how badly the IJC update mucked up the balance for sharpshooter.
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I'm curious as to the movie now.
But anyway, determining the capabilities of a weapon requires crunching a LOT of numbers, and your stats there don't factor in a lot of important details. Headshot multiplier, magazine size (and thus, single mag damage potential), and you're looking at their base stats rather than what you would get from the Sharpshooter's perk bonuses.
An unperked headshot from the LAR is 280 base damage. One from the M14 is 180. So, you're right, the damage per shot is higher for the LAR.
But, the M14 has double the magazine size, quadruple the fire rate, and when reloading from 0 to full on each, the M14's reload time is half that of the LAR. This is all still looking at base stats, no Sharpshooter bonus. Of course, the LAR has the advantage of interruptible reload of individual rounds, making it the better option for sustained usage against many targets, but for sheer damage output against one bulky target, the M14 takes the trophy. Also note the laser sight, allowing for accurate hipfire shots, meaning you can aim better while on the move. It takes practice to get consistent headshots at a high rate with the M14, but once you can do that, its potential is incredible.
Now, comparing the Crossbow to the M14 is a bit trickier, so let's crunch some numbers.
So, the headshot damage of an unperked Crossbow is going to be 300x4.0 = 1200, which is very nice. Offperk, that's enough to two-shot a Fleshpound on 6-man Hard. Its fire rate is much slower than the other two though, so the Crossbow is very dependent on being able to kill in 1-2 shots. On Hard and below though, the Crossbow is pretty much the Sharpshooter's bread and butter.
But what about Suicidal and Hell on Earth?
Here, the resistances of the Scrake and Fleshpound come into play.
On all difficulties the Fleshpound has mostly the same resistances, and the Scrake has none. But, on Sui/HoE, they both gain a resistance to the Crossbow: half damage for the Scrake, and x0.35 (or about a third) for the Fleshpound. So offperk the Crossbow will now do only ~400 headshot damage to the Fleshpound, which is just big enough to make him rage and too small to do more than scratch him.
A level 6 Sharpshooter has an x2.4 headshot bonus for perked weapons (x1.5 for offperk weapons), so using a Crossbow against a Scrake would result in 300x4x2.4x0.5 = 1440, enough to two-shot it on Suicidal. On Hell on Earth it'll survive the second shot with 44 health left. A third headshot from pretty much any weapon will finish the job, and on either difficulty unless I'm mistaken you should be guaranteed a stun as well, so the Sharpshooter can still make quick work of the Scrake with a Crossbow.
But against the Fleshpound? A level 6 will deal 960 damage with a Crossbow headshot, which means 3 shots on Suicidal and 4 shots on Hell on Earth, and the Fleshpound doesn't get stunned. That's just not adequate.
Now, the M14. With this, on any difficulty, the Scrake has no resistance and the Fleshpound takes x0.75 damage. A L6 Sharp will dish out 80*2.25*2.4 = 432 damage per headshot against the Scrake and all smaller zeds, and 324 damage per headshot against the Fleshpound.
On HoE, the headshots to kill comes to 7 for the Scrake and 10 for the Fleshpound. That's pretty high, but keep in mind you can empty the M14's 20-round magazine in 5 seconds flat. With the way the rifle handles it would be preposterous to get all 20 shots to be headshots firing at max rate, but with enough practice I'd say it's fair to be able to get at least half of them, or 95% of them with more paced shots.
So you could probably kill the Scrake in ~3 seconds and the Fleshpound in ~6 seconds. This makes the M14 about equal to the Crossbow against these two on Suicidal, but superior on Hell on Earth.
But on top of all that, the M14 can also mop the floor with all the smaller zeds, while the Crossbow would need a good backup weapon.
So, for Hard and below, dat Crossbow is where it's at. For Sui+, get yoself an M14. And for both of them: practice, practice, practice.
If you honestly read that whole thing, you have my thanks.
And for your future reference when comparing weapons and such, here's the thread with a download link to the PDF that has all these numbers I'm crunching.
The movie is assasins and it is fantastic. btw, thanks for the nifty chart
Very very true, I am merely pointing out the lack of balance between the lar crossbow and m14.
as for myself, my best class (4th sharpshooter) i find easy to make headshots with just about any non scatter weapon, including the m14, IF I TAKE MY TIME. i can get off about 2 shots a second and hit 70% of the time. i can easily hit 95% of the time firing each second with the LAR.
crossbow at this point is my favorite weapon, because of its raw damage output.
the reason i gave the down and dirty is that stats show max capabilities. as you said, noone will fire 100% accurate in spam mode, and so in my opinion it comes out to RAW DAMAGE OUTPUT.
and the winner, with the most sustainable, accurate rapid fire, is the LAR. secondly, the m14, and third the crossbow (since crossbow is SLOW)
i feel that my most viable option is the LAR and a .44 mag until the final rounds, where i would obviously get the m14 as it IS the best ranged weapon overall... but its expensive.
Really, what i would like is an intermediary rifle like the hunting rifle, or maybe a G3 with a scope as well for a 10 round auto rifle. chances of someone pulling a g3 out of there *** is 0%, but we have a great hunting rifle so... i vote hunting rifle
ho hum de hooo.
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I'm curious as to the movie now.
But anyway, determining the capabilities of a weapon requires crunching a LOT of numbers, and your stats there don't factor in a lot of important details. Headshot multiplier, magazine size (and thus, single mag damage potential), and you're looking at their base stats rather than what you would get from the Sharpshooter's perk bonuses.
An unperked headshot from the LAR is 280 base damage. One from the M14 is 180. So, you're right, the damage per shot is higher for the LAR.
But, the M14 has double the magazine size, quadruple the fire rate, and when reloading from 0 to full on each, the M14's reload time is half that of the LAR. This is all still looking at base stats, no Sharpshooter bonus. Of course, the LAR has the advantage of interruptible reload of individual rounds, making it the better option for sustained usage against many targets, but for sheer damage output against one bulky target, the M14 takes the trophy. Also note the laser sight, allowing for accurate hipfire shots, meaning you can aim better while on the move. It takes practice to get consistent headshots at a high rate with the M14, but once you can do that, its potential is incredible.
Now, comparing the Crossbow to the M14 is a bit trickier, so let's crunch some numbers.
So, the headshot damage of an unperked Crossbow is going to be 300x4.0 = 1200, which is very nice. Offperk, that's enough to two-shot a Fleshpound on 6-man Hard. Its fire rate is much slower than the other two though, so the Crossbow is very dependent on being able to kill in 1-2 shots. On Hard and below though, the Crossbow is pretty much the Sharpshooter's bread and butter.
But what about Suicidal and Hell on Earth?
Here, the resistances of the Scrake and Fleshpound come into play.
On all difficulties the Fleshpound has mostly the same resistances, and the Scrake has none. But, on Sui/HoE, they both gain a resistance to the Crossbow: half damage for the Scrake, and x0.35 (or about a third) for the Fleshpound. So offperk the Crossbow will now do only ~400 headshot damage to the Fleshpound, which is just big enough to make him rage and too small to do more than scratch him.
A level 6 Sharpshooter has an x2.4 headshot bonus for perked weapons (x1.5 for offperk weapons), so using a Crossbow against a Scrake would result in 300x4x2.4x0.5 = 1440, enough to two-shot it on Suicidal. On Hell on Earth it'll survive the second shot with 44 health left. A third headshot from pretty much any weapon will finish the job, and on either difficulty unless I'm mistaken you should be guaranteed a stun as well, so the Sharpshooter can still make quick work of the Scrake with a Crossbow.
But against the Fleshpound? A level 6 will deal 960 damage with a Crossbow headshot, which means 3 shots on Suicidal and 4 shots on Hell on Earth, and the Fleshpound doesn't get stunned. That's just not adequate.
Now, the M14. With this, on any difficulty, the Scrake has no resistance and the Fleshpound takes x0.75 damage. A L6 Sharp will dish out 80*2.25*2.4 = 432 damage per headshot against the Scrake and all smaller zeds, and 324 damage per headshot against the Fleshpound.
On HoE, the headshots to kill comes to 7 for the Scrake and 10 for the Fleshpound. That's pretty high, but keep in mind you can empty the M14's 20-round magazine in 5 seconds flat. With the way the rifle handles it would be preposterous to get all 20 shots to be headshots firing at max rate, but with enough practice I'd say it's fair to be able to get at least half of them, or 95% of them with more paced shots.
So you could probably kill the Scrake in ~3 seconds and the Fleshpound in ~6 seconds. This makes the M14 about equal to the Crossbow against these two on Suicidal, but superior on Hell on Earth.
But on top of all that, the M14 can also mop the floor with all the smaller zeds, while the Crossbow would need a good backup weapon.
So, for Hard and below, dat Crossbow is where it's at. For Sui+, get yoself an M14. And for both of them: practice, practice, practice.
If you honestly read that whole thing, you have my thanks.
And for your future reference when comparing weapons and such, here's the thread with a download link to the PDF that has all these numbers I'm crunching.
Most beautiful wall of text I have ever seen... :')
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Fun fact: before writing that post, I had no idea what the M14 was capable of. I crunched all those numbers on the spot.
Ehh, those seem like pretty lame spawn weapons compared to what the other perks get. LAR works for level 5 since each perk spawns with one of its more basic weapons at level 5, and .44 would be fine there too, but LAR for level 6 just doesn't cut it compared to M79 + Pipebombs, Axe, AK47(?), MP7M + Body Armor, Flamethrower + Body Armor, and Hunting Shotgun.
Noted. I forgot to take Sharp's reload speed bonus (and his recoil reduction, for that matter) into account.
I know what you mean. When I was trying to get my demo from 2 to 3, I found the 2800 pounds needed for the M32 completely preposterous.
I wish they'd rebalance weapon prices by scaling perk bonuses differently rather than just jacking up the base cost. Makes things prohibitively expensive at low levels.
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