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Server PunkBuster activity: Is this normal

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puggy

Grizzled Veteran
Sep 2, 2011
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www.brothersclan.co.uk
#1
As a test, yesterday we turned PB off and lag/pings were non-existent, with 38 slots. Turned PB on again last nite, and lag/pings increased at least 30%. As a result of feedback from players we have had to drop slots to 34.

Since last Friday/Saturday, we have noticed that some clients connecting to our servers have a lower version of PB. See the extract from our ..\binaries\win32\pb\svlogs\00000065.log file for this morning. Times are GMT. I've already posted on PBBans forum http://www.pbbans.com/forums/punkbuster-updates-t147193.html[url]http://www.pbbans.com/forums/punkbuster-updates-t147193.html[/URL].

Is this level of activity normal? Why are client pb versions out of date? Is this causing higher than normal pings/lag for some players on our servers? My understanding at this point is that the additional lag/pings we see are not due to PunkBuster, which we all agree is a good thing, but seem to be related to clients being at the wrong version. Is Steam the method for keeping PB updated for Red Orchestra? If so who is going to fix this?

From feedback from players and other server admins, this issue is not unique to our servers. Comments and feedback please!



Spoiler!
 
#3
puggy said:
As a test, yesterday we turned PB off and lag/pings were non-existent, with 38 slots. Turned PB on again last nite, and lag/pings increased at least 30%. As a result of feedback from players we have had to drop slots to 34.

Since last Friday/Saturday, we have noticed that some clients connecting to our servers have a lower version of PB. See the extract from our ..\binaries\win32\pb\svlogs\00000065.log file for this morning. Times are GMT. I've already posted on PBBans forum http://www.pbbans.com/forums/punkbuster-updates-t147193.html[url]http://www.pbbans.com/forums/punkbuster-updates-t147193.html[/URL].

Is this level of activity normal? Why are client pb versions out of date? Is this causing higher than normal pings/lag for some players on our servers? My understanding at this point is that the additional lag/pings we see are not due to PunkBuster, which we all agree is a good thing, but seem to be related to clients being at the wrong version. Is Steam the method for keeping PB updated for Red Orchestra? If so who is going to fix this?

From feedback from players and other server admins, this issue is not unique to our servers. Comments and feedback please!



Spoiler!
Click to expand...

I had wondered that as well Puggy as our logs were full of that same stuff. We have litterally tried everything we can think of to stop these high pings and lag and nothing works.

We even tried changing the following value in pbsv.cfg to something lower as 6 is rather high:
pb_sv_CvarFreq 6

That means each player is checked 6 times per minute by pb.
 
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#4
puggy said:
As a test, yesterday we turned PB off and lag/pings were non-existent, with 38 slots. Turned PB on again last nite, and lag/pings increased at least 30%. As a result of feedback from players we have had to drop slots to 34.

Since last Friday/Saturday, we have noticed that some clients connecting to our servers have a lower version of PB. See the extract from our ..\binaries\win32\pb\svlogs\00000065.log file for this morning. Times are GMT. I've already posted on PBBans forum http://www.pbbans.com/forums/punkbuster-updates-t147193.htmlhttp://www.pbbans.com/forums/punkbuster-updates-t147193.html.

Is this level of activity normal? Why are client pb versions out of date? Is this causing higher than normal pings/lag for some players on our servers? My understanding at this point is that the additional lag/pings we see are not due to PunkBuster, which we all agree is a good thing, but seem to be related to clients being at the wrong version. Is Steam the method for keeping PB updated for Red Orchestra? If so who is going to fix this?

From feedback from players and other server admins, this issue is not unique to our servers. Comments and feedback please!



Spoiler!
Click to expand...

Besides Keksman58 Rus all the other players are or are trying to auto-update, so there must have been an update to PB. Client auto-update will cause lag for individual players but it shouldn't affect the Game server, as the updates are coming from the Master PB servers.

There may have been a PB Server update, but these are usually announced and in my previous experience didn't cause any noticeable lag. It would be a one off thing as well, not ongoing.

puggy said:
Our last PB Client update request was almost two hours ago. I assume that means clients have been updated, and as a consequence, any lag/pings have now stablised?


Code: 
[10.06.2011 17:32:02] Download request for pbcl (w 2273 -> 2278) from (slot# 16 [0,1]) 84.251.68.234:55477 jardix11
Click to expand...

PB client auto-updates are a download directly from the Master PB servers somewhere in the USA (most likely Dallas) to the PB client on players machines. The Game Server is not involved in the process in anyone from everything I've read over the years. But it still could be an issue with PB, but I highly doubt it's anything to with auto-updating PB clients.

If it's a PB server update it wont be an ongoing issue. Just some, if any, lag until the server-side PB files are updated. That said PB may be causing issues, but I doubt it's because of the updating as that is short term.

LordGleedo said:
We even tried changing the following value in pbsv.cfg to something lower as 6 is rather high:
pb_sv_CvarFreq 6

That means each player is checked 6 times per minute by pb.
Click to expand...
That could only have an affect if the CPU of your game server is overloaded. From what I've seen of other Cvar checkers, doing that many checks will have little drain on a CPU unless it is already maxed or near max.

Edit: What Cvar checks are you doing for this game?
 
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#5
I dont think this is normal or it shouldnt be

I remember in cod that when the client was running an old version of PB they would be kicked and told to update

I would hate to think that the new way is to actually update on the server as this would cause a lot of lag especially with 30+ players and this would also maybe lag other servers out if you had a box
 
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#6
Lush said:
I dont think this is normal or it shouldnt be

I remember in cod that when the client was running an old version of PB they would be kicked and told to update

I would hate to think that the new way is to actually update on the server as this would cause a lot of lag especially with 30+ players and this would also maybe lag other servers out if you had a box
Click to expand...

Yes PB does/attempts to update the client when connected to the Game Server and it has always been that way, so yes this is completely normal. Players downloading when connected to a Game Server, be it a PB client update or porn, will not affect a Game server.

Just to clarify how PB updates the client: PB clients maintain a connection to Master PB servers (not the Game Server). When EB releases a new update for clients, the PB client will attempt to download the update from the PB Master server, not the Game Server. If the player's internet cannot handle a connection with the Game Server, PB's Master server and download an update all at the same time, then the player will get kicked. The Game Server is not involved in any way with the updating of the PB clients.

The same type of process occurs simultaneously, but separately with the Game Server. PB updates to Game Servers should not be an issue unless the server has a very poor internet connection, most if not all Game Servers have very good internet connections, unlike many players. Also PB updates to Game Servers occur far less frequently, particularly as the game matures.
 
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#8
Jason,

many thanks for the additional information, as I am new to Red Orchestra 2 and the unreal engine, I was unsure how the game interacts with PunkBuster.

What I do not understand is this: when clients connecting to our server started to have a lower version of PB than our server, our server started to suffer from higher pings/lag, not just for those players but for all players. This activity was not continious, it just happened to coincide with a user connecting with a lower version of PB. I also know from other clans/groups, that they had exactly the same issue.

Once the majority of users had updated their version of PB, the issue seemed to disappear. It would seem, on face value anyway, to imply that the high pings/lag that Red Orchestra 2 servers suffered was a direct result of a client side Punkbuster update?

It would be nice to know if this was in fact the case...
 
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#10
Lush,

no they did not. Also incidents of ping/lag spikes, only occurred exactly when the logs showed a user requesting a PB update. Therefore my conclusion, in the absence of any comment from Tripwire, Steam or PunkBuster, is that a client side PB update, which we have been told is handled by Steam, was in fact handled by Red Orchestra server in some way.

Right now, we can push our servers back up to 38/40 slots with no side effects. I would really like to know what happened, but then again... Its only a game;)
 
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#11
That is my experience of PB. OK not very enlightening I know, but I have had dealing with PB by admining servers since the early days of COD2, and in my experience PB patch day is always laggy and always results in loads of kicked players for incorrect PB version.

Thankfully it is not to often, but I doubt there is much that can be done about it other than removing PB, and I would never condone that.

Also I would recommend spreading the word to as many people as possible to use the PB updater tool, this keeps you PB tip top and up to date (as long as you run it lol) and the more people that use this out of game, the easier it is for servers to update those that dont bother.

a linky follows :)

[url]http://evenbalance.com/index.php?page=pbsetup.php[/URL]
 
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#12
puggy said:
What I do not understand is this: when clients connecting to our server started to have a lower version of PB than our server, our server started to suffer from higher pings/lag, not just for those players but for all players. This activity was not continious, it just happened to coincide with a user connecting with a lower version of PB. I also know from other clans/groups, that they had exactly the same issue.

Once the majority of users had updated their version of PB, the issue seemed to disappear. It would seem, on face value anyway, to imply that the high pings/lag that Red Orchestra 2 servers suffered was a direct result of a client side Punkbuster update?

It would be nice to know if this was in fact the case...
Click to expand...
The files used in the auto-updating of PB clients are the exact same used for all other games that use PB, I've never heard of this being an issue in any other game that uses PB. So if PB is the cause of the problem I highly doubt that the auto-updating software of PB is directly the cause. It might be indirectly causing the problem, say the dedicated server files of RO2 for some reason don't take kindly to players downloading when connected, then PB is going to be indirectly causing the problem.

puggy said:
Therefore my conclusion, in the absence of any comment from Tripwire, Steam or PunkBuster, is that a client side PB update, which we have been told is handled by Steam, was in fact handled by Red Orchestra server in some way.
Click to expand...
Steam has nothing to do with the way PB works, PB functions completely independently of Steam and of the game server for client updates. Though VAC client module is updated by Steam but only when a player isn't connected to a game server. You could open a ticket with EvenBalance and confirm that their auto-updating is done independently of the game server.
 
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#13
Jason,

thanks again for the additional information. I will post a ticket with Even Balance!

I have seen posts elsewhere that imply HLDS and Steam, although having nothing to do with how PB works, do in fact participate in updating PB during releases of the game, for both client and server side releases. See the posts on a PB version issue with one of the TW game updates.
 
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#14
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#15
critch said:
Also I would recommend spreading the word to as many people as possible to use the PB updater tool, this keeps you PB tip top and up to date (as long as you run it lol) and the more people that use this out of game, the easier it is for servers to update those that dont bother.
Click to expand...
Players getting kicked for failing to auto-update isn't caused by the PB Master servers being overloaded, it's because some players internet can't handle a connection to the Game Server, PB Master server (located in the USA) and download from those PB Master servers all at the same time. Bad routing is a big issue with many players, a lot of ISP will route their customers to another continent before going to the download server.

puggy said:
Jason,

thanks again for the additional information. I will post a ticket with Even Balance!

I have seen posts elsewhere that imply HLDS and Steam, although having nothing to do with how PB works, do in fact participate in updating PB during releases of the game, for both client and server side releases. See the posts on a PB version issue with one of the TW game updates.
Click to expand...

HLDS cannot in anyway update a client, there is nothing in HLDS that has anything to do with players. There is no real need for HLDS to even update the Game Server PB files, as the Game Server will need to maintain a connection to PB master servers. So I would doubt HLDS would even do that. EvenBalance don't reinvent the wheel when they integrate their software into a new game, they just make the same software work for the game. Which means most changes are on the client, but even then not a massive change from all the other games they support.

What I would like to see, for other reasons as well, is TWI request EvenBalance have an opt-in auto-update when not running the game, like VAC does. Auto-updating only when connected to a Game Server is just a stupid demand of Electronic Arts and Activision for "privacy" reasons.
 
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#16
HLDS did update servers recently, as TripWire Interactive packed an out dated version of PB.

However, as most servers have PB running, the game itself schedules a PB task to auto-update, pb_sv_task 0 86400 pb_sv_update, so this was a minor issue. And as you point out, there should be no need for HLDS to update servers, and maybe for Steam to update clients.

For the moment though, as this is a new game, with a number of major version changes, a number of exploits, some not yet discovered:(, and if TWI are releasing a version of the game, that coincides with a PB release for that specific version, then Steam and HLDS seem to me to offer the best solution to ensure all servers and clients are updated, in as short a time as possible.

My concerns are that "something" caused lag/higher pings on ours and others servers a week ago, the only evidence I could see was related to a difference in PB version at the client and server ends. That has now largely gone away, and so have the lag/ping spikes. It could have been a time-zone issue as well, if the release happened when most players in Europe where on-line, and the rest of the world was waking up or going asleep. I know it is not at all scientific, I was never pointing the finger at PB, rather the delivery and update mechanism(s). I had just hoped that someone actually knew what was happening, and might have shared that information with the rest of us. I still live in hope.

To answer my own question on the thread PunkBuster activity: Is this normal I guess its not. In the long term though, as the game matures, Red Orchestra 2 and PB should behave exactly as you say!
 
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