Please check the KV-1S armor values

[Recce]

Yeah I'm no expert but anything from the PzIV f2 & up I trust was able to penetrate it in RL. But it just seems as a whole when compared to the T34, the T34 can generally withstand more hits than the KV.......I don't know maybe the T34 really is better armored? 2 things for the experts out there to judge are #1: I can one shot kill the KV frontally (through the hatch I assume) at 1000meters with the PzIII using "only" it's AP rounds (not even APCR). #2: I can one shot kill a KV frontally (hatch again?) with a Pz IV f1!!! with the nubby gun!! At 1000meters!!! LOL, Is that even close to possible with that gun IRL? I wish I was an expert on tank guns but I'm not all I know is the KV seems to come up short protection wise alot more than the T34 does. Maybe I should stop asking questions for fear of the answers? Eh, Time for a drink (or 3).

I've been doing some test firing against the KV-1s using the PzIV F1 at 750m. The PzIV F1 isn't something that I usual bother manning. But I found it was very easy to get a 1 shot kill against the KV-1s. And I could only just damage the T-34 at that range.
IMHO, the guns in RO:OST are over-powered and the angling is over modelled. The angling problem as probably improved with the last patch. The over-powered guns is why the F1 is causing damage at this range, but I've got to agree with you that something is strange with the KV-1s.

The thinnest part of it's front armour is the glacis plate, in front of the vision port; it's 50mm thick and sloped at 70 degrees off the vertical.
The upper front / glacis of the T-34 a single plate, which as we know is 45mm thick, sloped at 60 degrees off the vertical. So from this, the T-34 should be marginally easier to damage than the KV-1s (when taking the thinnest, but largest front plate). But as we have both seen, in RO:OST the KV-1s is far easier to damage.

RO:OST probably doesn't model the complex shapes of the front of the tanks, there is probably a general armour value, and angle for each face / side. Maybe the KV-1s is treated as having a front angle for more like 30 degrees off the vertical (the hatch plate is 30 and the lower hull is 25), and with angling probably still being over modelled, this results in it being considered "weaker" than the T-34. But this is just a guess. We would need someone to look at the code to tell us.

But as for IRL, the PzIV being able to damage either the KV-1s or T-34 at 750-1000m, using AP, I really can't imagine it, even taking in the fact that the Russian armour was cast. And the PzIII wouldn't have faired much better. The front plates were either too well sloped, or just plain thick.

There are stories of a single, dug-in KV-1 stoppig a German advance for several hours, but that was probably a KV-1E, with it's very heavy turret.

 

[FatPartizan]

Strange photo. All hits in a turret in one plane, under one angle.
There can be it used as a training target?

 

[Teufel Hund]

I agree, the Russians should have a better representation of the KV series. KV-1E would be nice. I'd love to see the KV-2 added as well, but it would have to be in addition to one of the more common KV models, and more limited in numbers. KV-85 would be great for later maps as well.

And of course they have to be modeled realistically. So what if none of the German tanks can penetrate it frontally. They'll just have to use better tactics and team work, just like in real life.

 

[Sichartshofen]

I agree, the Russians should have a better representation of the KV series. KV-1E would be nice. I'd love to see the KV-2 added as well, but it would have to be in addition to one of the more common KV models, and more limited in numbers. KV-85 would be great for later maps as well.

And of course they have to be modeled realistically. So what if none of the German tanks can penetrate it frontally. They'll just have to use better tactics and team work, just like in real life.

50mm APCR with 165mm of penetration will do the trick just fine.

 

[Afterburner]

There are stories of a single, dug-in KV-1 stoppig a German advance for several hours, but that was probably a KV-1E, with it's very heavy turret.

Actually it was a KV-2 that held up a German advance in Lithuania I beleive. !05mm artillery fire, tanks, and even 88s couldn't kill the thing. The tank was only defeated after it ran out of ammo.

But I would still much rather see one of the more heavily armed versions of the KV-1 in game. Either the original or the KV-1E.

 

[Teufel Hund]

50mm APCR with 165mm of penetration will do the trick just fine.

I keep forgetting which Panzer III is in game. But the numbers I've seen are a bit lower than that...

5 cm Kw.K. L/60 firing Pzgr.40 will penetrate 130mm at 100m
5 cm Kw.K. L/42 firing Pzgr.40 will penetrate 94mm at 100m

These are from German firing tests, all plates are at 30 degrees. The German test plates were of a much better quality than what could normally be expected to be found on Russian tanks, and thus the actual results would usually be better than those of the tests.

I suppose in actual use against Russian tanks they may have been able to penetrate 165mm, but it would still be at very close range.

 

[Sichartshofen]

I keep forgetting which Panzer III is in game. But the numbers I've seen are a bit lower than that...

5 cm Kw.K. L/60 firing Pzgr.40 will penetrate 130mm at 100m
5 cm Kw.K. L/42 firing Pzgr.40 will penetrate 94mm at 100m

These are from German firing tests, all plates are at 30 degrees. The German test plates were of a much better quality than what could normally be expected to be found on Russian tanks, and thus the actual results would usually be better than those of the tests.

I suppose in actual use against Russian tanks they may have been able to penetrate 165mm, but it would still be at very close range.

165mm of penetration is at 90 degrees from 100 meters at 500 meters its 120mm.

 

[Recce]

I keep forgetting which Panzer III is in game. But the numbers I've seen are a bit lower than that...

5 cm Kw.K. L/60 firing Pzgr.40 will penetrate 130mm at 100m
5 cm Kw.K. L/42 firing Pzgr.40 will penetrate 94mm at 100m

It's not 100m that the question, it's 750m+, which is why I say it's over powered. I'm killing the KV-1s with PzGr39 at 750m and Quietus is killing it at 1000m. And I can kill a JS-2 at 750m with PzGr40. While we don't know if they are modeling PzGr40 or PzGr40/1, the PzGr40/1, with it's improved aerodynamic shape should never have been able to do that to the sloped front of a JS-2. (While the PzGr40 flew like a brick , and really wasn't up tomuch at 700m).

165mm of penetration is at 90 degrees from 100 meters at 500 meters its 120mm.

Can you point me to your source of data for the 0 degree angle?

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

Actually it was a KV-2 that held up a German advance in Lithuania I beleive. !05mm artillery fire, tanks, and even 88s couldn't kill the thing. The tank was only defeated after it ran out of ammo.

But I would still much rather see one of the more heavily armed versions of the KV-1 in game. Either the original or the KV-1E.

If this is the quote Im thinking about then the Tiger I was not even built yet(or was not present) and the German advance was made up of PzIV (short low velocity 75mm) and PzIII with the 50mm. As if I recall correctly I think the PzIV F2's longer higher velocity 75mm could kill the Kv-2 but the 88mm would obviously obliverate it.

 

[Afterburner]

If this is the quote Im thinking about then the Tiger I was not even built yet(or was not present) and the German advance was made up of PzIV (short low velocity 75mm) and PzIII with the 50mm. As if I recall correctly I think the PzIV F2's longer higher velocity 75mm could kill the Kv-2 but the 88mm would obviously obliverate it.

They brought up an 88mm battery to kill it.

From the wiki on the KV tanks.

On 23–24 June, a single KV-2 effectively pinned down elements of the German 6th Panzer Division for a full day at the bridgeheads of the Dubissa River below Raseiniai, Lithuania, playing a prominent role in delaying the advance of Panzergruppe 4 on Leningrad (Zaloga & Grandsen 1981:10–12).

And from battlefield.ru

The bridgehead of Kampfgruppe Raus was held. During the afternoon, as a reserve, a reinforced company and the headquarters of Panzer-Abteilung 65 were pulled back along the left attack route to the crossroads northeast of Rossienie. In the meantime a Russian heavy tank had blocked the communications route to Kampfgruppe Raus, so that contact with Kampfgruppe Raus was broken for the entire afternoon and during the night. An 8.8-cm Flak battery was sent by the commander to fight this tank. It was just as unsuccessful as a 10.5-cm battery whose fire was directed by a forward observer. In addition, an attempt by a Pioneer assault troop using balled explosives failed. It was impossible to get close to the tank because of heavy machine gun fire.

That is from a German war diary, not a Russian one. They've also got a picture there of the tank in question.

Edit: It doesn't specifically say the 88s even hit. They might have been missing because they would have to fire long distance because of heavy covering fire. However it says the 105mm rounds just bounced off.

 

[Sichartshofen]

Can you point me to your source of data for the 0 degree angle?

PaK38 - It's exactly the same gun used in the PzIII and both use the same ammunition.
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/guns.html

 

[Rapp]

Strange photo. All hits in a turret in one plane, under one angle.
There can be it used as a training target?

I've no idea as no further information came with the photo. Its possible that it took that amount of hits if early war accounts of germans encountering the kv1 are anything to go by but I reckon they knocked it out and then tested its armour using different shot, range etc.