• Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

New difficulty above HoE: Hardcore

Neuro75013

Grizzled Veteran
  • Sep 19, 2016
    104
    6
    39
    Hey there!

    I decided it's time to ask for a new difficulty since the game has had broad buffs during 2021 with it's new weapons and the perk changes.
    Previous thread from January 2021: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/suggestions-gathered-since-2015.2337033/

    Hardcore difficulty:
    - Perk starts at level 0
    - Played perk resets to level 0 on death
    - XP gain is linear (each level requires the same amount of XP) players would permanently have the XP boost from rank 5 which means in 3/4 games you are level 25
    - On the player rank badge you would have a counter showing how many times the player managed to do it successfully
    - Only playable on official maps so as to not be milked by players on XP farming maps
    - No achievements so no-one will complain about it being too difficult

    edit: to be clear this hardcore difficulty is using HoE Zeds stats. It's above HoE, not something on the side.

    Here is a snippet of the new difficulty that was discussed more than a year ago:
    - 100% more Zeds/Large Zeds per waves
    - 100% increased items spawn rate
    - Quarterpounds/Scrakes wave 1
    - Considering the number of Zeds and items spawn rate, money should not be a bigger problem even if a few players gets killed.
    Adding a new difficulty will massively increase the interest for this game for the skilled Twitch/Youtube Streamers and high skilled players, giving a lot of visibility to the game.
    It would be an exception in the current gaming market that could attract people looking for challenges.

    Hope y'all having a lovely day, cheers!
    <3
     
    Last edited:
    The game does not need changes like this to be more difficult, at least at this stage. The main reason why KF is easy is because of exploitable game mechanics. Adding more monsters with more HP does not make the game more difficult when you can kite them forever. For example, a medic lvl 5 with resilience could probably still win easily despite all the changes you've introduced.

    There's already a good thread debating how difficulty should be adjusted, and there are at least a few changes that seem quasi-unanimously agreed.
    - nerf medic healthrower & resistance (or speed)
    - buff patriarch, KFP, Abom
    - nerf or remove the mechanic where zed count/HP decreases when some players die, it discourages teamplay and makes it very easy to solo once you're the last player alive
    - tune default MaxMonsters values: 3p HoE is too hard, 5-6p is too easy
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Aleflippy
    Upvote 0
    The game does not need changes like this to be more difficult, at least at this stage. The main reason why KF is easy is because of exploitable game mechanics. Adding more monsters with more HP does not make the game more difficult when you can kite them forever. For example, a medic lvl 5 with resilience could probably still win easily despite all the changes you've introduced.

    There's already a good thread debating how difficulty should be adjusted, and there are at least a few changes that seem quasi-unanimously agreed.
    - nerf medic healthrower & resistance (or speed)
    - buff patriarch, KFP, Abom
    - nerf or remove the mechanic where zed count/HP decreases when some players die, it discourages teamplay and makes it very easy to solo once you're the last player alive
    - tune default MaxMonsters values: 3p HoE is too hard, 5-6p is too easy
    Hello there,

    The problem with nerfs and buffs is that it will affect all difficulties, TWI developers showed us their vision and I do not wish to asking them to backtrack even tho the choices are always debatable, I respect their vision and do not wish to ask them buffs/nerfs that would affect other difficulties. Adding more Zeds per wave, large Zeds earlier or resetting the perk on death is an easier and more streamlined way to add to the difficulty for people that wants it.

    Have a nice day :)

    Edit: Sorry I had to answer to this :
    Adding more monsters with more HP does not make the game more difficult
    - nerf or remove the mechanic where zed count/HP decreases when some players die
    This is contradictory. Besides where did you see me asking for increased Zeds health pool? Even tho it would be a good idea IMO. I do not think getting feedback for a new higher difficulty from someone who is vocal about the game being already too hard is a good idea (humam2104).
    The main reason why KF is easy is because of exploitable game mechanics​
    Can you explain which game mechanics I am abusing when I solo HoE 10 waves with a level 0 Sharpie/support/SWAT/any perk?
    For example, a medic lvl 5 with resilience could probably still win easily despite all the changes you've introduced.​
    Resilience is indeed very strong I agree, but I do not wish to ask for buffs or nerfs as previously mentioned, I respect the devs vision of balance. Besides the idea is to start at level 0, not level 5 so it would still be a nice challenge for players seeking something fresh.

    PS: I had to edit the main post to clarify that this hardcore difficulty is using HoE Zeds stats just to be clear. It's above HoE, not something on the side. I hope no one got confused.

    Good day everyone!
     
    Last edited:
    Upvote 0
    The problem with nerfs and buffs is that it will affect all difficulties,
    While the changes I suggested are with HoE in mind, they positively affect all difficulties to some extent. I don't see any problems with nerfing medic and buffing KFP/Abom/Patriarch for all difficulties. LMS/MaxMonsters could be kept specifically for HoE, or in a new difficulty, but they wouldn't break the lower difficulties either.

    This is contradictory.
    The game is simply already too hard in some circumstances, and too easy in other.

    Let's take 2 scenarios:
    1. Three-player squad HoE as non-medic/zerk/surv
    2. Solo HoE as Medic

    Scenario 1 is probably impossible for 99% of the playerbase and even for a skilled player it is doable but not consistently, at any mistake or unlucky QFP spawns you can die. (if you're wondering why it's because of very weird and unintuitive choice of numbers for MaxMonsters/scaling - 3p is much harder than any other number of player count)
    Scenario 2 is borderline un-loseable. Example.

    Same game, same difficulty in both cases, yet scenario 1 is hard, scenario 2 easy. In practice depending on map, player count, and class choice, players will find themselves in either of these scenarios, sometimes without realizing how much it matters, that's why some people say it's too hard, some say it's too easy. Both are right.

    Now why I disagree with your proposition: by adding more monsters/more HP, you make the first scenario even harder than it already is, while changing absolutely nothing to the 2nd one. This is not helping the game in any way, in fact, it only makes the current problems worse. Watch the video, do you think adding more FPs here will help? There are already 10+ of them. At some point the zeds just get stuck and can not out damage certain classes faster than they heal, there are at least 3 classes for which this is the case: zerk/surv/medic. This is not a conceptual scenario, it happens in game, even during boss waves, and that's why you see so many people are angry about lone medics who never die and takes 30 minutes to complete the wave, it's because the game started at 3p (scenario 1, hard) but then suddenly as people die we move to scenario 2 (easy) and now the medic is unkillable, this is not good design, it discourages teamplay and makes it extremely unfair for any non-medic/zerk/surv classes who are almost guaranteed to die first.


    Can you explain which game mechanics I am abusing when I solo HoE 10 waves with a level 0 Sharpie/support/SWAT/any perk?
    You said you could level up during the wave, with an XP boost, so reaching at least lvl 5 should be easy. From there, medic gets resilience and becomes OP enough to solo the wave. Same problem as regular HoE.
    Note that "abuse" is not exactly the right word here, as I do not blame players for game design faults, I don't think most medic/zerk mains play it intentionally for the absurd resistance / lonewolf capabilities.

    Resilience is indeed very strong I agree, but I do not wish to ask for buffs or nerfs as previously mentioned, I respect the devs vision of balance.
    Then expect 95% of the people to take medic in your mode because it is already the best class in the game AND has the strongest lvl 5 perk on top of it.


    I do not think getting feedback for a new higher difficulty from someone who is vocal about the game being already too hard is a good idea (humam2104).
    These are not his suggestions, I quoted the discussion as a whole not just the main post. In fact I disagree with most of his other suggestions, and yet we still agree on these ones:

    • Nerf medic healthrower & resistance (or speed).
    • Buff patriarch, KFP, Abom.
    • Nerf or remove the mechanic where zed count/HP decreases when some players die, it discourages teamplay and makes it very easy to solo once you're the last player alive.
    • Tune default MaxMonsters values: 3p HoE is too hard, 5-6p is too easy.
     
    Last edited:
    Upvote 0
    Can't subscribe to that.

    The reason #1 I enjoy playing this game is because I enjoy the killing. Non-stop, no-BS slaughter, that's the most addictive thing. Based on that:

    - I don't enjoy leveling perks from 0.
    - I don't care about XP gains.

    Instead, if a new official difficulty is introduced, I want it to rely on the same mechanics that make this game so addictive and replayable, but just more of the same. They have been having a working formula, there's no need to break it. So it would be:

    - just put more zeds on a map. Maxmonsters=32 for 6p to, say, maxmonsters=60 would do the trick. More zeds = more killing, more joy.
    - no spawnrage.
    - less randomness in spawns (i.e. tone down QP spam spawns, disable stalker/husk conversion to EDARs, as EDARs since the Matriarch update have their own squads and don't need this mechanic to be spawned).
    - spawn more scrakes and FPs.

    It's as simple as that and doesn't need any new content, especially considering that neither TWI nor Saber are in position anymore to introduce any new quality content.

    These are needed because:

    - current HoE has a lot of downtime, when one has to sit and do nothing waiting for zeds to spawn. Again, I don't enjoy sitting and doing nothing, I play this game to pop heads non-stop.
    - current HoE has too much randomness which encroaches on player's agency and way to often puts a player into situations which are impossible to survive. It's always frustrating to die to circumstances determined by RNG instead of one's own mistakes.
     
    Last edited:
    Upvote 0
    I wish we could stay on topic about a new higher difficulty and stop asking for buffs and nerfs. Besides except nerfing resilience, health thrower, and Zeds health stack on 3p everything else you guys are asking is to make the game easier. This is disappointing. The fact that there is health thrower and resilience buff is a direct effect of this forum being filled since 2015 with people asking to make the game easier and complaining about HoE being too hard, instead of playing on a lower difficulty.

    I like EDARs, I like spawn raged QPs/FPs, I like that the Zeds on HoE runs faster etc. and I am glad that the devs had these awesome ideas. No one is forcing you to play easier perks, no one is forcing you to use resilience or health thrower. The whole idea of the hardcore difficulty is to make the game even more focused on synergies btw each perks and team cohesion. Currently dying mid wave doesn't really punish the player for playing bad and not respecting the game mechanics. One of the prime example is raged FP hitting a player, most of the time you will see people shooting it until it dies rather than parry and stop engaging and wait for a class to stun/freeze him.
     
    Upvote 0
    I like EDARs, I like spawn raged QPs/FPs, I like that the Zeds on HoE runs faster etc. and I am glad that the devs had these awesome ideas.

    Well, yeah. Now it makes total sense that your proposal sounded to me a bit unreasonable. Our outlooks on what's good and bad in this game are in irreconcilable contradiction.

    If you wish you can elaborate here how exactly spawnraged FPs/QPs are good for the game.

    Also:

    most of the time you will see people shooting it until it dies rather than parry and stop engaging

    While it totally makes sense to stop engaging for a moment so the FP doesn't rerage, parrying (unless you play as a berserker) is borderline useless and the fact that most players don't engage in parrying is completely warranted, as in most cases you lose more by wasting time pulling the knife and putting it back. But this makes me wonder, what led you to think that parrying is useful? Why is it exactly parrying and not just blocking? Are you a zerk main? Do you play on a console? How many hours in-game?
     
    Upvote 0
    If you wish you can elaborate here how exactly spawnraged FPs/QPs are good for the game.
    It makes the game more challenging, if you don't like it you can play on lower difficulties where their rage spawn rate is lower or even 0%.

    While it totally makes sense to stop engaging for a moment so the FP doesn't rerage, parrying (unless you play as a berserker) is borderline useless and the fact that most players don't engage in parrying is completely warranted, as in most cases you lose more by wasting time pulling the knife and putting it back. But this makes me wonder, what led you to think that parrying is useful? Why is it exactly parrying and not just blocking? Are you a zerk main? Do you play on a console? How many hours in-game?
    Parrying saved me a tremendous amount of time against QPs/FPs with any perks. Besides I do not play berserker much but your question is very telling. I can show you how I do HoE solo 9mm only, HoE level 0 any perks (everything is on my YouTube channel), parry saved me more than anything else. Bash is also a life saver as much as EDARs (yes EDARs are a life saver). People are oblivious about how EDARs work, EDARs are basically free stun grenades walking on two legs. EDARs do not make the game harder but makes it much easier.

    The fact that the forum is filled with complaints and people asking for buffs mostly and nerfs on Zeds is normal. This is not particular to KF2, this is how a forum work, people come with requests, complaints, bugs and feedback. Devs are aware that there are people liking what they did and wants more challenge while some wants to ease the highest difficulty instead of selecting a lower one (this alone has a lot to do with ego). Most of my friends who were top KF1/2 players moved on to other games, some went into DOOM 2016/DOOM Eternal playing Ultra Nightmare difficulty, which is exactly an hardcore mode i.e. you die you lose. idSoftware discarded all the complaints about this mode and it was a complete success. DOOM managed to tone down my ego, at first I was like "I am good at FPS games so I should beat it, if I don't succeed the game is broken", then I tried to work on myself and gave myself some time to learn the mechanics and started to understand what the devs envisioned with this mode, I started with Nightmare difficulty instead of UNM and then proceeded to switch gradually to UNM. It's one of the best personal and humbling learning experience I had in years. The Dark Souls devs did exactly the same but went for it even harder: there is no easy mode in this game, actually forcing players to learn how the game is supposed to be played.

    Our outlooks on what's good and bad in this game are in irreconcilable contradiction.
    It's up to you, I am sure we can agree on some things, as shown previously, I agree with you that health thrower and Resilience are very strong. Besides if you want to have a look at the best Zerk players I can link you to my friend ZiFFA which uses a ton of unintended game mechanics, animations cuts, to make the zerk absolutely unkillable even with a dozen raged FPs and no medics all the while having the most DPS of all perks. Thing is, not everyone is capable of playing at this level.
     
    Upvote 0
    The fact that there is health thrower and resilience buff is a direct effect of this forum being filled since 2015 with people asking to make the game easier and complaining about HoE being too hard, instead of playing on a lower difficulty. [...] No one is forcing you to play easier perks, no one is forcing you to use resilience or health thrower.

    If you speak for multiplayer, this is an absolutely ridiculous argument. So I have two theories. Either:
    • You don't care about balance at all. Or,
    • You play only in solo.
    I guess it's the latter... If that's the case, make it clearer that you are balancing with solo in mind, as most people think about your changes in multiplayer. Typically saying "You can decide not to play medic if you think it's too strong" does not work in multiplayer. In multiplayer people play things that are strong not just what they want to play according to their own established challenges.

    The fact that the forum is filled with complaints and people asking for buffs mostly and nerfs on Zeds is normal.
    The buffs we ask are to counteract some much stronger nerfs. Literally every single person in this thread is asking for the game to be harder overall.


    Besides except nerfing resilience, health thrower, and Zeds health stack on 3p everything else you guys are asking is to make the game easier. This is disappointing.
    You realize that this is already a massive increase to difficulty right?

    If medic gets nerfed then the game will become naturally more difficult for every class in the game, not just medic but every class that has no self-sustain, and this will massively offset any of the buffs asked in the thread eg. non-spawnraged FPs.

    This is how balance works. You should nerf things that are too strong, while buffing things that are too weak.

    Your new difficulty only nerfs playstyles that are already bad and leaves unaffected the playstyles that are already OP.
     
    Upvote 0
    Hi again!

    If you speak for multiplayer, this is an absolutely ridiculous argument. So I have two theories. Either:
    • You don't care about balance at all. Or,
    • You play only in solo.
    I guess it's the latter... If that's the case, make it clearer that you are balancing with solo in mind, as most people think about your changes in multiplayer. Typically saying "You can decide not to play medic if you think it's too strong" does not work in multiplayer. In multiplayer people play things that are strong not just what they want to play according to their own established challenges.
    I play multiplayer mainly but also solo a lot.

    This is how balance works. You should nerf things that are too strong, while buffing things that are too weak.
    No, because there are always going to be weapons/perks easier than others. You can ask for nerfs, you can ask for buffs, but there is no balance theory where you should always ask for both.

    The answer I received in this thread contains the follow nerfs that you or o2xVc3UuXp0NyBihrUnu asked :
    - p3 HoE is too hard
    - spawn raged QP/FP is too hard
    - EDARs too hard
    - QPs spawn rate in large groups is too hard
    - less randomness in spawn

    And "Parrying is useless".

    By the way, it's speculation here but I don't think TWI is willing to increase Maxmonsters for obvious performance reasons.

    I'd like to see one of you play HoE lvl 5 medic with a team of HoE low perk players (be it a 2 or more players game) and see how it goes as you guys claim a lot of things regarding this perk (I am kind enough not to ask you to play level 0). In my book playing HoE with a level 0 is hard enough to be called a new difficulty. Most people smash the kick button when they see anyone with a sub level 15 player in HoE, while I am always super happy to see them because it means the game is going to get just a little bit more challenging. I agree with you guys, the medic is overwhelmingly strong, but that doesn't mean it has to be nerfed. Other solutions exist. I am not advocating for them but, if players want challenge they can ask to not have a medic in the team. In 2015-2017 it was common practice to ask the firebug and medic to change perk because back then the game was easier, no rage spawn, no sprinting Zeds. There are "precision perks only" servers today, because people like a good challenge (no demo no firebug no medic no zerk).

    Now I'd like to address XP farming, I understand that some people don't like having to XP, especially because going from 20 to 25 is slow and you have to do it on 10 perks, however this difficulty would grant linear XP and much faster XP, so that at wave 10 you are above level 10, you could even consider that instead of granting XP, after 5 wave you get 5 levels of the perk you are currently playing. This might even be a better system as you would not need to tag a Zed to get XP but just survive.

    By the way I am not main Zerk contrary to your assumptions (you made many but that's ok), indeed I have all my Perks maxed to rank 5 and I already reset them to level 0 rank 0 three times. The only perk that is sitting at a proud level 12 rank 0 is my Zerk, this is why I would rather not speak much about this perk because I am incompetent in the mater and I know my limits.

    Have a nice day everyone!
     
    Upvote 0
    No, because there are always going to be weapons/perks easier than others. You can ask for nerfs, you can ask for buffs, but there is no balance theory where you should always ask for both.
    I can't make sense of what you're trying to tell.

    We ask for nerfs of things that are too strong, and buffs for things that are too weak. Of course we can do both at the same time.

    Example: decrease zed count in 3p Hoe, increase it in 6p HoE.

    That's not to make the game harder or easier, that's to make it balanced.

    Do you think it's good design that you can randomly get 2x more HP worth of zeds to fight against, based on how many players join your server at a given time?

    I'm totally with you on increasing difficulty. But it doesn't mean we can't reduce it in some places where it's already excessive. In fact, Controlled Difficulty has removed spawnraged FPs and EDARs, and yet it's far more difficult than HoE.

    The answer I received in this thread contains the follow nerfs that you or o2xVc3UuXp0NyBihrUnu asked :
    - p3 HoE is too hard
    - spawn raged QP/FP is too hard
    - EDARs too hard
    - QPs spawn rate in large groups is too hard
    - less randomness in spawn
    None of these changes are proposed alone. They are proposed in a context where the rest of the game would be made harder to compensate.

    For example you keep quoting me saying "3p HoE is hard". I did not say "3p HoE is hard". I said "3p HoE is hard compared to 6p HoE".

    You could increase difficulty of 4p/5p/6p and leave 3p difficulty alone. I'm perfectly fine with that. I don't think 3p is too hard, but it's definitely not balanced compared to 6p.

    The spawnraged/EDARs/spawn randomness is exactly the same thing. We don't these changes to make the game easier. We want these changes to make the game balanced. Typically spawnraged FP is not an issue for Zerk and Medic who can tank the damage. But it is a major issue for sharpshooter which completely f*cks the class. So we ask for a change there to make the experience more consistent.
     
    Last edited:
    • Love
    Reactions: MrtPsr
    Upvote 0
    Allow me to disagree, this is what a forum is for, exchanging ideas and suggestions.

    Randomness is part of the experience and what makes a great coop game (look at Left 4 Dead/2), generally you want the least amount of randomness in a competitive game, that's it. And even then L4D2 is competitive and the community and Valve managed to make a working competitive environment which incorporates randomness seamlessly (confoGL L4D2). Randomness is what makes no games like the next one. In 2015 when FPs spawned un-raged the game was very much dull and top KF1 players left the game. I can count on one hand the players that sticked to KF2. The sharpie played with dual 9mm with 250 bullets for this weapon, a magnum and a more powerful Railgun. You could carry a team of 6 players in HoE pretty much doing everything (clearing lesser Zeds and taking down large ones without them having the slightest chance to hit you), I was against this, but I realized the devs were 100% right, the 9mm ammo pool nerf is just perfect.

    I'm still waiting for your "Medic is so easy a lvl 5 can easily carry a team in HoE" vid btw, unless you decline the proposition, I'm ok either way :giggle:

    Hope you're all having a lovely day.
     
    Upvote 0
    It makes the game more challenging, if you don't like it you can play on lower difficulties where their rage spawn rate is lower or even 0%.

    It does make it more frustrating, that's for sure. Now about the "hard" part...

    You see, there's a lot of ways to make any game hard. For example, make the damage of all zeds such that a player dies from 1 single hit. Or just make all players die upon spawn. How do you counter that? It's super hard, haha. Why then no game designer ever does it? Because such a game will not be popular. A good game, while being hard, should still leave a narrow path to victory only the skillful can navigate. This introduces the concept of player agency. Which postulates that the matter of win or loss should be under full control of a player. If a player practiced a lot and knows the game well -- he wins. If he doesn't -- he loses. The game doesn't punish the player blindly by, say, just killing the player through the use of enemies which cannot be dealt with. The game punishes the player ONLY for making mistakes. That's the key here -- only mistakes are punished.

    Now let's apply this to the spawnrage mechanic. Whoever was behind the design of it in the KF mod and KF1 understood it well. A team has 11-15 seconds to conduct a flawless FP takedown without any damage taken as long as the line of sight is maintained. This is a close to perfect design -- it makes a superdangerous enemy capable of killing a player quickly from 100 to 0, BUT, a player has to make a mistake by either 1) maintaining unnecessarily the LoS or 2) attacking it with enough power/precision to enrage it, but not enough to kill it. This puts the game into player's hands 100%, it's a perfect example of the player's agency determining the outcome. Morons have to die, skillful are rewarded with a win.

    It went downhill from KF1 to KF2, as the company grows, it hires people who have no business making game design decisions and they do it. In KF2 breaking LoS with a fleshpound does nothing to reset the rage timer. In KF2 baiting a calm FP into a swing does nothing to reset the timer. All this makes the game technically harder, but not in a good way, because it REDUCES the player's agency. There's no amount of skill of, say, playing hide and seek by breaking the LoS, or by skillful baiting without taking a hit would warrant you a win over an FP. Needless to say, this is bad.

    Moreover, they introduced the spawnrage. It violates the important principle of the players agency, which postulates that a player is punished ONLY for mistakes and ALWAYS provides a player with a narrow path to victory, if a player is skillful enough to navigate it. All that goes out the window because a spawnraged FP means receiving guaranteed near-deadly damage at no player's fault. Yes, it makes the game harder, but again, in a wrong way, similar to just killing a player for no reason after some random amount of seconds into the match. How entertaining is that? Not at all. It's just a bad game design.

    Now IF we wanted to make the game harder, YET never reducing the players agency, there are plenty of ways to do it without things like spawnrage. Just spawn 2 fleshpounds at once, which makes all the aforementioned plays significantly harder -- 1) it's harder to play hide and seek 2) it's harder to keep baiting into a swing 2 fps in parallel 3) it's harder to conduct 2 flawless takedowns in parallel. But POSSIBLE. If the player is skillful enough. This gives the player all the agency.

    Parrying saved me a tremendous amount of time against QPs/FPs with any perks

    Wishful thinking. Note how you don't supplement your opinion with any numbers. Because if you did, you would have realized that it helps in so narrow share of cases that it's borderline useless and warranted to use maybe once per 100-200 fleshpound takedowns without spawnrage, with a spawnrage and/or situations when a team's hesitance lead them to timerage it's maybe in the vicinity of 50-70 fleshpounds. It's borderline useless and for sure very far from "parry saved me more than anything else" as you say, as there are multiple things that are more useful, such as: 1) jumping to get bumped farther and avoid follow ups 2) bashing right after getting hit to avoid follow ups (an opportunity you have to give up if you pull a knife as you can't put it back fast enough to both parry/block and immediately bash if the FP rolls the follow up punch -- but you didn't seem to know that, did you?) 3) unless it's certain that one doesn't have enough time, just shooting it in the head is much more useful as in a much higher share of cases it can be disposed of quicker than it can hit a player. As an example, in your last video on Filths Cross you feature exactly 0 parries.

    Also, note how you ignored the parry/bash question.

    everything is on my YouTube channel

    I'm subscribed to your channel and watched all your videos.

    1) they are almost all solo (= 50 HP syringe, 50% less damage from big zeds, etc).
    2) only a few of them are long 10 wave games.
    3) there are no CD or anything harder than HoE games.
    4) even though these are regular HoE games "stand your ground" zones are almost never defended.
    5) lots of unwarranted running (to make it easier, no doubt).
    6) even up to this day you haven't learned to 1-shot clots and oftentimes shoot 2-3 rounds from 9mm or SMGs in hopes that one hits, what's your typical HS accuracy? Can you match top players in this game HS accuracy of 75%+ (e.g. fanta, nashtyx, kore, fatcat)?

    You have a long road ahead to match their performance, if you wish. But while on it, have you checked their opinions on the issue? Do you know their arguments? Have you ever played the CD mod?

    It's just it may worth to learn first what the top players and CD community in general think about these issues and learn their arguments, so at the very least your proposals take all this history into account? Posting unpolished opinions here can be dangerous, as TWI lost their vision long time ago and now cannot tell good suggestion from bad and may just go ahead and implement some nonsense that isn't thought through well enough.

    EDARs do not make the game harder but makes it much easier.

    They make the game more annoying for most players, that's for sure.

    They also can't make it easier, as EMP grenades, on balance, make things harder for precision perks, not easier. Hilariously, the only moment in your last Filth's Cross video, when you struggled to dispose of EDARs quickly, it was exactly because one of them EMPed the rest and you couldn't hit the weak spot as they wandered around so you had to resort to body shoot one of them to death, lmao.
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: CitronVert
    Upvote 0
    Wishful thinking.
    parry saved me during this game many times.

    there are no CD or anything harder than HoE games
    Playing a lvl 0 perk is not harder than vanilla HoE? Playing 9mm/knife only is not harder than vanilla HoE? Have you really watched the videos on my channel?

    even up to this day you haven't learned to 1-shot clots and oftentimes shoot 2-3 rounds from 9mm or SMGs in hopes that one hits, what's your typical HS accuracy? Can you match top players in this game HS accuracy of 75%+ (e.g. fanta, nashtyx, kore, fatcat)?
    What are you trying to say?

    You have a long road ahead to match their performance, if you wish. But while on it, have you checked their opinions on the issue? Do you know their arguments? Have you ever played the CD mod?
    Did you?

    They also can't make it easier, as EMP grenades, on balance, make things harder for precision perks, not easier. Hilariously, the only moment in your last Filth's Cross video, when you struggled to dispose of EDARs quickly, it was exactly because one of them EMPed the rest and you couldn't hit the weak spot as they wandered around so you had to resort to body shoot one of them to death, lmao.
    lmao indeed. I'm a bad player, is this the thought you are trying to convey? Is this your argument? I'm kinda speechless to be honest with you, what can I say.
     
    Upvote 0
    parry saved me during this game many times.
    Yeah, nonsense, as I said.

    You went from 100 HP 8 armor down to 69 HP 0 armor. The FP rolled its deadliest attack of 68 HP. But because it was a solo, it was just 44 HP. So 31 of it went to your HP and the rest to remove 8 armor. So by parrying here you save a whopping 44-39=5 HP. Congrats, because it made the difference between life and death. Except it didn't!

    Moreover, this was probably the end of the wave so there was no trash around. If there were, you would put yourself into a position of being unable to deal and say, kill a stalker that would have suddenly blocked your way, or just two crawlers, each of which may have rolled their 48 HP combo attacks so just 2 crawlers would inflict 96 HP damage and you would be able to do exactly nothing about it as you'd be wielding your knife.

    Even getting hit ONCE by a pathetic clot, you would have otherwise killed with a weapon if you didn't have to pull your knife, would have invalidated this tactic altogether because the clot would have inflicted > pathetic 5 HP you saved here by parrying.

    Moreover, you got simply lucky that the FP didn't roll the follow up punch, because if it did, you wouldn't be able to bash it off and would have to eat it.

    Find a better video where parrying with a knife truly makes a difference between life and death. I doubt that even a single such case ever happened to you over all your hours as these are extremely rare, as I said.

    Playing a lvl 0 perk is not harder than vanilla HoE? Playing 9mm/knife only is not harder than vanilla HoE? Have you really watched the videos on my channel?

    Well, maybe it's time to outline yet another game design principle. The game has to be entertaining. The challenge isn't worth it if it's not entertaining. There are billions of challenges in this world nobody cares about. Just open a Guinness book, people do all sorts of ridiculous things, like competing who can drink more water per time period. Nobody cares about it. But entertaining competition, such as boxing or MMA brings a lot of spectators.

    Playing underlevelled perks in this game is ANNOYING and NOT ENTERTAINING for most players.


    I did.

    lmao indeed. I'm a bad player, is this the thought you are trying to convey? Is this your argument? I'm kinda speechless to be honest with you, what can I say.

    You indeed have room for growth. You don't think so? Then how you can't kill clots using 1 clot 1 shot 1 kill method? There's no good reason to be defensive about it. I'm not the best player in this game either. Take it like a man and admit that yes, you are a bad player, if compared to players like fatcat, nashtyx, fanta, etc. And you need to get good and invest more time into this game before you understand it on their level. You may grow similar in skill, but it's going to take a few thousand hours. At which point people typically resort to "F you, do you even have life tard" argument. Will you?
     
    Last edited:
    Upvote 0
    I'm still waiting for your "Medic is so easy a lvl 5 can easily carry a team in HoE" vid btw, unless you decline the proposition, I'm ok either way :giggle:
    Sure, give me an account with lvl 5 medic and a team of 5 players who won't vote kick me. Lol... I'm not gonna reset my perks and install a CD server just to prove a forum point especially one that is so inconsequential.

    parry saved me during this game many times.
    I know I'm replying instead of o2, but there are so many things wrong with this claim I can hardly not comment:
    1. You took a 39 dmg hit, and knife absorbed 20% of the damage. So by parrying you managed to avoid a whopping... 8 DAMAGE.
      EDIT: not sure why o2's math and mine disagree.
    2. If you didn't block at all in this clip you would have ended up with 61 HP instead of 69 HP. Far from "saving you", in both cases you were above 50 hp, and could even have taken a 2nd hit.
    3. You healed immediatly after taking the hit, syringe heals 40 hp in solo so you end up at 100 HP in both cases. So in the clip the parry was LITERALLY useless.
    4. What saved you far more than the parry in this clip is that managed to make a FP hit the other one. (I hope you realized it)
    5. I also hope you realize that with knife, parrying does not reduce any more damage than blocking. I say that because it looks like you try to parry spam in the clip, which looks unnecessarily risky imo.
    6. This is a SOLO clip where FPs have reduced damage and you have improved syringe to heal after tanking the hit. It is WAY less punishing to take a hit in these circumstances. If you would have taken this hit in multiplayer would have almost guaranteed death in the next 2 minutes, because you couldn't heal fast enough to recover.
    7. The fact that you linked a solo clip, despite us repeatedly reminding you that solo is not representative of multiplayer balance at all; makes me even more skeptical about your knowledge of multiplayer balance. Again, it is perfectly acceptable to say that you want balance changes for solo, just make it clear.
    Back to the point. I agree with o2 that blocking with knife is useless in 90% situations and a vastly overrated tactic, and I even think your clip illustrates that. It's for sure a cool trick though, but not one that is useful in the current state of the game. Typically a way more useful trick to know about is that you can make the FPs hit each other to derage them, like you did in this clip.

    But you'll be pleased to know that both o2 and I suggested to buff the knife parry bonus to 40% in other threads so it looks like we all agree with each other that it's an interesting mechanic :)
     
    Last edited:
    Upvote 0
    yes, you are a bad player
    Thanks for comparing me to the cream of the crop I was under the impression I was the best player ever. lmao as you said. Clearly I am a bad player!

    Besides saving 20% incoming damage is even more useful in multi.

    I talked today with ZiFFA, he told me why none of the top players post here anymore, because of the whine and general disrespect and toxicity.
    Well at least I tried. This was fun, kinda. See ya lads.
     
    Upvote 0
    Besides saving 20% incoming damage is even more useful in multi.
    Then surely you would have been able to show us a video where it matters. Right? You have dozens of videos.

    Why the only clip you were able to choose was one where parrying had literally ZERO impact. You would have been at 100 HP two seconds after the hit, parrying or not.

    Do it. Show us one clip where it matters?

    You claimed yourself that "parrying saved you multiple times in this single video".

    It's supposedly "super useful", but you don't have a single clip to illustrate it in hours of recorded gameplay?



    I talked today with ZiFFA, he told me why none of the top players post here anymore, because of the whine and general disrespect and toxicity.
    TL;DR : you're out of arguments and resort to personal attacks.
     
    Upvote 0
    [*]You took a 39 dmg hit, and knife absorbed 20% of the damage. So by parrying you managed to avoid a whopping... 8 DAMAGE.
    EDIT: not sure why o2's math and mine disagree.

    Well, 8 or 9 damage reduction would probably be if there was no armor. 20% from 44 HP is 8.8 and it's either rounded up or down, so it's 8 or 9.

    But he had armor, how does armor interplay with it?

    We know that the HP counter says 69 HP remaining after the hit, therefore the inflicted damage was 100-69=31 HP to health, while he had 8 armor before the attack, therefore total damage after reduction was 31+8=39, as some was absorbed by the armor. This doesn't match the numbers we should receive after the reduction, but that's what the screen shows, so our math is somehow wrong here. So 44 HP attack (about which I'm 100% sure) - 39 HP total damage received = 5 HP saved by parrying.

    The issue could be is the sequence of how it gets calculated, what comes first. Maybe knife parry protects only health, but not armor. Let's check this theory with the math. 44 HP incoming damage. Armor is below 50, so it absorbs 0.55 of all incoming damage. We probably need to break the hit into 2 parts, one that corresponds to the damage absorbed by armor, another applied purely to health. If 8 HP of armor were 0.55, the health HP corresponding part would be 8*45/55=6.54, let's assume it's rounded up, which is 7. So out of 44 HP applied damage 8 goes to armor HP, 7 goes to health HP, leaving the player with 93 HP health. Then, say, the parry reduction applies to the reminder of 44-(7+8)=29 HP, of which 20% would be 5.8, one would it expect it rounds up to 6, but oftentimes KF2 employs weird math that doesn't always round to the nearest whole, so it may round down to 5.

    If this theory is correct, which seems to match the experimental numbers, parrying is even worse than previously thought, as it applies the reduction only to the damage that applies to health, while all damage to armor applies unreduced.

    Would be nice if someone checked the logic. I may check the code in the next few weeks to get this confirmed.
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: CitronVert
    Upvote 0
    Thanks for comparing me to the cream of the crop I was under the impression I was the best player ever. lmao as you said. Clearly I am a bad player!

    Well, I think it was warranted after you began appealing to your authority on the subject, specifically, referring to your YT channel where you pull off skillful stunts and the Doom Eternal talk that supposedly should prove that this game isn't hard enough for people like yourself.

    In any way, isn't it reasonable to bring up opinions of people who feel themselves above HoE skill wise as well?

    I agree that HoE is somewhat easy, but due to its inconsistency still can kill anyone and my opinion is it has to be made more balanced first and foremost, so skill is rewarded more, while unskillful play is punished. It's natural to have different opinions in the process and forums are one of the best places to validate the opinions on do they hold water or nah. Like, your opinion on parrying usefulness, apparently, turned out to be hard to argue for. The forum worked as intended, as we collectively improved our understanding of the game and found that parrying may not be as useful as you claimed it is.

    I talked today with ZiFFA, he told me why none of the top players post here anymore, because of the whine and general disrespect and toxicity.
    Well at least I tried. This was fun, kinda. See ya lads.

    What did you expect? Everyone agreeing with every claim you make? You were just called out on making a claim you failed to prove is as you claimed, nothing more, nothing less. Maybe it makes your opinion on how to improve HoE less valid, I don't know, but the forums do their job to refine opinions and make them close to truth. I'm very satisfied with how it works. Don't get offended by just having to read someone's words disagreeing with what you said.
     
    Upvote 0