Me No Understand...

[dextronaut]

according to the latest news for HoS, the heroes aspect works like this:

-you start off as a cleanshaven, uniformed soldier.

-your gun will be of less quality while you are still new.

FLASHFORWARD!

-you are now a hero, cut up, bruises, rough looking, torn up uniform.

-you now have access to a much nicer weapon.

my question is, is it about cosmetics? or only stats? what im trying to understand is, are there multiple skins for the same weapon? such as rust, wood damage, etc? i dont know if this is right but to me, after being on the battlefield for so long, your weapon should reflect that by changing over to a rough skin - rust, gouges in the wood, etc. once you reach hero status.

if this isnt possible, thats too bad, but if possible i would like not only my soldier to look beat up from long service, but also the Kar 98 etc to look just as beat up.

 

[REZ]

What I'm afraid is meant by 'having a nicer weapon' once you reach 'Hero' status is that they plan on giving new recruits in the game some janky non-accurate, jamming piece of junk.. then, when you become Steiner, you have new, super accurate, non-jamming equipment.. and a thousand-yard stare.

Hopefully I'm wrong.

 

[dextronaut]

What I'm afraid is meant by 'having a nicer weapon' once you reach 'Hero' status is that they plan on giving new recruits in the game some janky non-accurate, jamming piece of junk.. then, when you become Steiner, you have new, super accurate, non-jamming equipment.. and a thousand-yard stare.

Hopefully I'm wrong.

hopefully not. doesnt make sense that you start off clean but your rifle isnt, and then when youre a veteran the rifle you were issued is magically better. there should be a system where you can keep your rifle (the skin of the weapon shows more rust/gouges in the wood) but you can put in a request for a new rifle (say like after 5 games you go to a order menu like in Killing Floor), and if you dont want to, you can keep the beat up weapon as a sign of your machoness to the other players.

honestly, i just want to experience the whole battle torn soldier thing. i want my character to start off fresh looking, and then turn into a bruised up mess from all the games ive played. and i also want my rifle to degrade just as my soldier is.

 

[Flogger23m]

hopefully not. doesnt make sense that you start off clean but your rifle isnt, and then when youre a veteran the rifle you were issued is magically better.

Well, I remember reading something about how the Soviets gave the better equipment to the more experienced soldiers. One example was the scoped SVT-40 - it was mainly given to snipers who had more experience. Though I hope this is not the case in HoS. As I understand it, it is only cosmetic. So if you are a sniper, your Mosin or SVT-40 will have ugly wood, and not look new.

I am sure in real life, that often times the experienced soldiers got the better equipment.

 

[Welshie]

hopefully not. doesnt make sense that you start off clean but your rifle isnt,

This does make sense especially in times of war. After a battle the weapons of the dead where usually collected and then recirculated back into use with only minor inspection, A weapon doesn't like to be dropped and would become less accurate and prone to malfunction, these weapons normally ended up in the hands of the New guys, After all they where expected to be dead before breakfast.

 

[Fedorov]

is not that they have the same weapon the whole time... they give heroes new ones between battles, just to keep them in optimal shape. The best for the best

 

[dextronaut]

if its historically accurate that veterans during the eastern offence were given more advanced/better weapons than the newbies, then thats cool.

 

[REZ]

...at the same time, I'm sure there were plenty of occasions when a crate was cracked open and fresh recruits were given new rifles.

The problem is continuity. Carrying over experience to different soldiers (since, when you die, you are technically a new soldier) and on through non-contiguous maps... If thats how it works, we're really flirting with arcadiness.

Imo, this 'Hero' thing should be specifically for single player campaign stuff... not multiplayer. With that said, none of us really knows how it will be implemented, so, I remain hopeful.

 

[dextronaut]

i just dont want it to wind up like the mess with Killing Floor. TWI's put alot of emphasis on perks to keep the games replayability, but its done more bad than good most of the time: the forums are full of ppl fighting over the whitelisting, people dont want to play nonwhitelisted maps, people grind to lvl 6 and then quit because the games not fun anymore, people are complaining the game is becoming too easy. etc. etc. etc.

it adds to the game in more ways than one unfortunately. hopefully they realize this and have precautions in place because although systems like KF's perks and HoS heroes are attractive, they can be abused and have a negative impact.

 

[dextronaut]

PS: fingers crossed for 2 seperate skins for the weapons. a beat up mosin nagant would be tough

 

[REZ]

You see, a game like KF needs something like perks and leveling to keep it interesting. I mean, what are you actually doing in that game.. shooting mindless puppets who do nothing more than walk directly at you in a straight line. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it for the simple button masher that it is, but Red Orchestra in my opinion doesnt need incentives to keep people playing. You simply need quality opponents.

 

[Fedorov]

people grind to lvl 6 and then quit because the games not fun anymore, people are complaining the game is becoming too easy

Yes... RO:HoS will definitely be easy as hell once your rifle doesn't have that 0,2% chance of jamming.... oh wait... now in RO, they are already clean, they don't jam, and they are 100% accurate...

Then... are you saying that RO is too easy and boring as it is now?.

And if KF became too easy is not related to perks, but to other mechanics are balance issues that has nothing to do with it or are the concern of RO:HoS

the forums are full of ppl fighting over the whitelisting, people dont want to play nonwhitelisted maps

This can easily be prevented if you plan the leveling mechanics right front the beginning... you think TWI would learn nothing from KF?


BTW, I personally love perks.

The problem is continuity. Carrying over experience to different soldiers (since, when you die, you are technically a new soldier) and on through non-contiguous maps... If thats how it works, we're really flirting with arcadiness.

Its not about each fresh soldier, its about how you feel as a player after playing the game for 4 years, you certainly would feel like a veteran and should be rewarded for it.

hopefully not. doesnt make sense that you start off clean but your rifle isnt, and then when youre a veteran the rifle you were issued is magically better.

Love how you guys use the "magic" word when you don't like something, trying to appeal to their sense of realism, while not realizing that it's only your subjective interpretation and set of realism priorities. I see what you did there.

 

[REZ]

Its not about each fresh soldier, its about how you feel as a player after playing the game for 4 years, you certainly would feel like a veteran and should be rewarded for it.

..but Fed, I do feel like a veteran after playing since '04 and I am rewarded due to my own personal experience within the game. Veteran players own at the game because they are good at it through practice.. and since everyone is playing with the same basic character, individual skill really shines.

It actually is about each fresh soldier as well.. when you respawn, you are a new human being - you know that. How does a new human being have the same skills gained by a guy who just died?

 

[Fedorov]

..but Fed, I do feel like a veteran after playing since '04 and I am rewarded due to my own personal experience within the game. Veteran players own at the game because they are good at it through practice.. and since everyone is playing with the same basic character, individual skill really shines.

Do you really think that this system is gonna change that fact? if it hits, it kills, regardless of the state of your weapon. Is not like you'll have higher HP, and your weapon higher damage, or something like that.

It actually is about each fresh soldier as well.. when you respawn, you are a new human being - you know that. How does a new human being have the same skills gained by a guy who just died?

What its about its up to personal interpretation, and there is a big grey area there.

You'll still feel like you, your actions, style, experience, skills and reaction time are the same of you, well, a new human being with the exact same characteristics of that old one...

Not to mention that he remembers what the dead guys before him saw... so they also are in touch with the afterlife.



And that being said, I say that I really like the whole hero and morale idea. But I also wonder how will TWI prevent that after 2-3 years of game, the thing won't be a hero war, where everybody is a hero.

 

[REZ]

Do you really think that this system is gonna change that fact? if it hits, it kills, regardless of the state of your weapon. Is not like you'll have higher HP, and your weapon higher damage, or something like that.

It seems now that you understand we are debating something we dont completely know. For all we know, as you gain 'Hero' status, you may have less recoil, less sway, a more accurate gun, more running endurance etc... things like this will most definately change how it feels to kill or be killed because you have an artificial advantage over someone who doesnt have those perks. I want to know it was me who bested my opponent because I'm a better player and not because I have less sway, a more accurate gun, and my opponent pisses himself when shot at. Again.. we are debating something we dont completely understand.

You'll still feel like you, your actions, style, experience, skills and reaction time are the same of you, well, a new human being with the exact same characteristics of that old one...

Right. You'll still have the same playing style or whatever, but tell me how Gustav, who is fresh to the battlefield, has the same sway or recoil or endurance/morale perks as Ramm who lived through 3 months of battle? If you have a persistent perk system, then you are carrying over gained abilities between different people and even different battles entirely. That sounds awfully gimmicky.

Not to mention that he remembers what the dead guys before him saw... so they also are in touch with the afterlife.

This is only an advantage if your opponent stays in the exact same place as he previously killed you from.. you know there really isnt much that can be done about that. It's in every FPS. Well, if you play the game for any amount of time, you quickly learn that you need to outsmart your opponent, and that isnt accomplished by sitting in the same spot for the whole round.

 

[Fedorov]

It seems now that you understand we are debating something we dont completely know. For all we know, as you gain 'Hero' status, you may have less recoil, less sway, a more accurate gun, more running endurance etc... things like this will most definately change how it feels to kill or be killed because you have an artificial advantage over someone who doesnt have those perks. I want to know it was me who bested my opponent because I'm a better player and not because I have less sway, a more accurate gun, and my opponent pisses himself when shot at. Again.. we are debating something we dont completely understand.

Still, you'll rarely find 1 on 1 duels against a guy who has the exact same equipment or (PPSH41 =/= MP40 =/= MG42) weapons for each army are different, even the whole play style is diferent.

the mindset of 1 vs 1 duels, or besting x player, is something more typical of a CS or Quake, than RO

Right. You'll still have the same playing style or whatever, but tell me how Gustav, who is fresh to the battlefield, has the same sway or recoil or endurance/morale perks as Ramm who lived through 3 months of battle? If you have a persistent perk system, then you are carrying over gained abilities between different people and even different battles entirely. That sounds awfully gimmicky.

The second part is no less unrealistic than your first sentence of this paragraph, when I respawn, I don't feel like someone else, I don't even think about it, actually...

Oh and what are the chances that two soldiers who know about the same things and plays the same way, one comes after the other one's death, and somehow, both are called "MoeMoeKyun<3"?.

There are certain topics that shouldn't be touched



This is only an advantage if your opponent stays in the exact same place as he previously killed you from.. you know there really isnt much that can be done about that. It's in every FPS. Well, if you play the game for any amount of time, you quickly learn that you need to outsmart your opponent, and that isnt accomplished by sitting in the same spot for the whole round.

They normally are in the same places, as maps are limited, and wherever you are, you still know the map like the palm of your hand regardless of who you are, either Gustav or Ramm

I think to keep the players from being all heroes, the hero status is attained by a mix between Kill/Death/Score/Victory/Defeat ratios. and only in populated multiplayer games, that way, it can't be exploited, also people will be caring about their lives if they have to keep up with a good K/D ratio and also win maps to attain Victory/Defeat ratios. Its a win/win system .

It would also promote skills and realistic play instead of farming (Which is what everybody assumes here, that It'll be about farming)

Read here Devs

 

[Capt.Cool]

It was said that HEROS have access to better weapons/equipment.

That means that on a mulitplayer map, Heros can select their roles first.
Like Squadleader, Engineer, Semiauto rifles. The roles that either require experience
(nothing is worse than a newbie as a SL who does not even know how to use Arty)
or limited weapons like G41, STV40 - or the best tanks.

German tank ace Michael Wittmann was also given the Tiger tank and not some crappy Pz4...


That would make perfect sense, and would be realistic....

 

[Zetsumei]

I am in favour of utilizing stats, to make people more concious about their lives. With whatever effects are connected to it. However due to exploit ability I'm not much a fan of stats based on win/loss ratio on a map in general (ill get to that later).

Personally if a system for skill will be used for stats, I hope that the type of map will be accounted for. (Infantry, Tanks etc) and class (Snipers perform differently from Smg). And that the effect of time is taken into the ranking. So not only a Kill/Death ratio but a Kills/Death/Minute ratio rated on a per class basis.

Next to that a teamwork sort of ratio would be handy probably, if the point system gets a good overhaul to actually represent a person's actual help towards the team, basically in the form of Points/Deaths/Minute. However this is dangerous territory, as then a system decides how to measure teamwork, which gets really vague.

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The best way how I would see such a system in place is basically, comparing how someone performs on side A on map B with weapon C against others that played on the same map side and class. With the amount of people that even still play ro: ost these days you would be able to get enough data for a pretty good working ranking.

With an increase in activity with RO:HoS you could probably even go as far as gathering stats on a per cap basis rather than a per map basis. Its important when talking about stats that you compare apples with apples, and not pears with apples, so its really important to normalize the compared situation as much as possible. As the goal is to measure and rate individuals performance, and not an individuals luck.

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also win maps to attain Victory/Defeat ratios.

I hope that no victory defeat system is in place unless teams can automatically be truly balanced. Everybody would join the team which got the best players to gain the best chances of maintaining their victory default ratios, and pretty much play on the easy side of maps.

For something like that to work, either the chance of winning for the axis and allied side must be accounted for (ideally forcing teams to play both sides). And the general skill of your team compared to the opponents team.

Imagine if a team got a good chance on loosing or at the first cap it seems that its going to be a complete failure everybody would loose then.

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Ideally you should reward people for what help they bring to the team. Though being in a capzone, blowing up walls and giving mg's ammo isn't the only way to help a team. Things like cutting off the enemy his reinforcements supply to a cap zone, or giving covering fire from out side of the capzone should be rewarded as well. Just like getting rid of sharpshooters and MG positions.

If a person is rewarded for his individual addition towards the teams teamwork (a measurement that might be impossible). Then automatically good players will rather join the weaker team, as they can help that team more.

It's important that if such a system is chosen that it doesn't actually force people to play in a certain way that is not natural. Like MG's when they have plenty of ammo shouldn't get any more. Generally its better if 2 people capture a cap zone with the rest pushing forward and keeping the zone clear. Than when 10 people are in the cap zone, simply waiting for a grenade to land next to them.

And that is where I would rather go to, a form of a stable balance between teams, where if one side gets favoured the strong people join the weak side. Rather than when one side is loosing, that all people try to join the winning side.

 

[FlyXwire]

German sniper Sepp Allerberger became a successful marksman on the Eastern Front by using a captured Mosin Nagant sniper rifle. And after his demonstrated success in the field, was later sent back to Germany for formal sniper training (and naturally re-armament with German weaponry).

Hopefully this is the type of weapon advancement system being considered for HOS (expereince-driven, re-armament opportunities).

 

[Zetsumei]

Such a system would be fair, but I do hope that new players do get a chance to try out different classes and weaponry. And not be stuck with a bolt action rifle for their first months playing. Allowing them to only learn and gain experience by using the weaponry of fallen soldiers, might be a bit too unfriendly for new players.