Last 5 zeds on the map

[vealck]

Well, sure, conga lines were kinda silly, but frankly permarage is a lot worse alternative.

• It often acts as random arbitrary wipe, throwing at low-on-ammo players something they could never deal with, like 2 permaraged FPs.

• It forces constant cooperation down the players' throats

• It unevenly reduces team's chance of survival with each lost player, a lot of times down to zero.

• And finally, forces people to adapt behaviors like last 10 zed herding, which are just as silly and anticlimactic as conga lines.

Also, it's worth remembering that all the problems in KF1 endwave game so frequently mentioned here were caused in 99% by utterly broken zerk perk. If KF1 zerk wasn't so badly balanced (ba...what?), most games would never go as long, and a group of remaining calm scrakes was still a menacing thing for a lone survivor of pretty much every other class.


In terms of solutions to current issue:

• FPs shouldn't be affected by last 5 zeds mechanic at all

• Limit amount of scrakes that can be affected by that mechanic at once, to for example 2. When one of raging duo dies, one may enter rage mode, and so on.

 

[bass361]

Why not just give all classes passive speed increases, or make a choice in the skill trees to choose speed, or something worth swapping for it. The main problem with the game, in my opinion, is that the only classes who can truly deal with the FP/SC are the faster classes because they can run away.

It simply isn't fair for other classes to die just because FP/SC are so damn fast they can't get away.

So in Short, if you can't kill a FP/SC within seconds of raging, all the slow classes are dead, without proper healing that is.

 

[Savage Rodent]

Why not just give all classes passive speed increases, or make a choice in the skill trees to choose speed, or something worth swapping for it. The main problem with the game, in my opinion, is that the only classes who can truly deal with the FP/SC are the faster classes because they can run away.

It simply isn't fair for other classes to die just because FP/SC are so damn fast they can't get away.

So in Short, if you can't kill a FP/SC within seconds of raging, all the slow classes are dead, without proper healing that is.

For flesh pounds, I can agree with this. However every perk can outrun a scrake's attack. Though it was a lot more fun to fight scrakes when you could dodge their swings.

 

[Vahnkiljoy]

Why not just give all classes passive speed increases, or make a choice in the skill trees to choose speed, or something worth swapping for it. The main problem with the game, in my opinion, is that the only classes who can truly deal with the FP/SC are the faster classes because they can run away.

It simply isn't fair for other classes to die just because FP/SC are so damn fast they can't get away.

So in Short, if you can't kill a FP/SC within seconds of raging, all the slow classes are dead, without proper healing that is.

While I agree, it would reduce the already pitiful 'selection' of perks we have anyway and there would be no point in having something alongside 'movement speed' as, well mainly a FB player I dream of being able to move like all the other classes with boosts.

 

[MikeHoncho]

Just remove it from FPs. They already have a built in mechanic that punishes people who kite them. Permarage on FPs is stupidly unfair. It's ok on scrakes because there's still a way to fight them without getting hit.


And why does everyone exaggerate the last man standing scenario from KF1 so much? Geez man even the devs are blowing it out of proportion now. It just invalidates the point you're trying to make. I never once saw a game where someone kited the last enemies for more than 10 minutes. And what's the alternative? He dies and everyone quits anyway. It was an OPTION. One of the many that KF1 had that this game doesn't.

 

[DolphinBuffMan01]

And why does everyone exaggerate the last man standing scenario from KF1 so much? Geez man even the devs are blowing it out of proportion now. It just invalidates the point you're trying to make. I never once saw a game where someone kited the last enemies for more than 10 minutes. And what's the alternative? He dies and everyone quits anyway. It was an OPTION. One of the many that KF1 had that this game doesn't.

Yeah, I never saw this issue in my 600 hours of KF1. HOE online consisted of a bunch of Supports, a Sharp Shooter a Demo and maybe a crowd clearing perk (though 4 Supports was no uncommon) and there would be little trouble. We didn't even bother with Medics and Berserkers because the damage output down a corridor meant we didn't need a tank or any healing. I never once saw the conga line.

 

[JoelFig]

The absurdly long kite fests that get referenced happen with dozens of zeds still remaining, not a measly 5, and even with this autorage mechanic those scenarios still occur(not to mention the most popular wave for them to happen is the BOSS wave). The big difference that this mechanic has made is that now when the lone survivor drops the zed numbers to the last 5 he's more likely to wipe on the home stretch.

 

[Mr. Someguy]

Except now if a player has successfully kited for 20 minutes and it's down to the last few zeds, the auto-rage really just makes it almost impossible to win, so instead of someone kiting for a while and you coming back, they kite for a while and almost make it, then die from an infinity-raging 2 FPs and 3 scrakes.

If your entire team wiped at the very beginning of the wave, then you deserve to lose. If you are completely alone and there are 5 big Zeds still alive, you deserved to lose. It seems like some people think the game should just let them win no matter what! Because who cares if the entire team wiped to one Scrake and you're left to fight 130 Zeds by yourself? Obviously you deserve to spend the next 20 minutes fighting the wave alone, and then the next 40+ fighting each giant one at a time.

 

[DolphinBuffMan01]

If your entire team wiped at the very beginning of the wave, then you deserve to lose. If you are completely alone and there are 5 big Zeds still alive, you deserved to lose. It seems like some people think the game should just let them win no matter what! Because who cares if the entire team wiped to one Scrake and you're left to fight 130 Zeds by yourself? Obviously you deserve to spend the next 20 minutes fighting the wave alone, and then the next 40+ fighting each giant one at a time.

Where do you draw the line at deserving to lose? What if a bug makes it so that at a pivotal moment, something like an RPG doesn't go off and someone gets eaten because of it? Or as I have all too frequently suffered, the application minimizes and you get the "Change the color scheme to basic for performance" message? In these cases, does the team deserve to lose?

I believe if someone is good enough to hold it together, then they should be given that option rather than have the game just declare "Bad luck, you need more people". This isn't the only scenario affected by the perma raging enemies though, and as I (and others) have stated in previous posts, how many times have numerous people on a team been blitzed by a final Fleshpound, not because they deserve to die, but because the ability to hit him and not take substantial damage is almost non existent?

This isn't a matter of just one person soloing, this implementation effects a wide variety of scenarios, and isn't fair on a lot of them.

 

[BJ Vynz]

just dont let any big zeds spawn in the end!
when there are less than 40 zeds left, then there shouldnt spawn any fp or scrake.

Simplest solution I think, and I'd be very happy with it. Though I'd be okay with 20 instead of 40 as well.

 

[Mr. Someguy]

Well I for one believe that there should be a secret button on the map that kills all the baddies and gives you 10000000 dosh. But it only unlocks if you're alone and you have to trick jump with your knife while parring gorefasts so only players with skillz can save the game.

 

[Shambler]

Some background here:

• Something we saw time and time again in KF 1 was the 10 to 40 minute last zed kite with a medic and other players would leave. This is not fun to the other players

I see that way more in KF2, likely as a consequence of the last 5 zed thing. These are just my observations but players seem to fear the end of the wave due to the potential difficulty spike and will play more conservatively towards the end of the wave, especially considering that is when ammo is low and some of the team may have already been killed. Also, many classes are still fast enough to kite for a very long time, giving them (usually false) hope that they might be able to clean up the raging big zeds after a partial wipe if they happen to find an ammo box. I've seen many a 10+ minute snore fest in KF2 of a ammo-less gunslinger/medic running round the map with a scrake&fp conga line in tow.

If you want the waves to end quickly when the zed counter starts getting low make the last zeds easier to kill, not harder... unless you want the wave to end with a wipe in with case you need to make the end even more difficult than it is now.

 

[Savage Rodent]

I see that way more in KF2, likely as a consequence of the last 5 zed thing.

What? This still happened even before the last 5 zeds raging mechanic. It has nothing to do with this mechanic being implemented. I remember the first time seeing a medic kite zeds around the map as last man and thinking how ridiculous the movement speed bonus was.

If you want the waves to end quickly when the zed counter starts getting low make the last zeds easier to kill, not harder... unless you want the wave to end with a wipe in with case you need to make the end even more difficult than it is now.

I don't see what could be done to make the zeds easier to kill. Either way to make the end of a round easier than the rest of the round just seems to counter the game being a survival wave based game with increasing difficulty as you progress. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

It forces constant cooperation down the players' throats

And this is a negative? Sometimes the only way to get the desired result is to force it on people. Sui and below you can get away with subpar performance, but HoE is justifiably "cooperate or die". That is what makes it so beautiful, you work with the team or you don't win. Players with a knack for cohesion perform better than those who do not / cannot work with others.

 

[Greasy_Mullet]

There are better ways to deal with the problem. But why do players sometimes want to drag out the end is another question you should be asking.

Well I for one will drag it out to find more resources. TWI has gone too far to limit ammo and ammo drops that having time at the end to wander around and reload a little is worth it.

But often its something big and bad left for last and your team might be out of good ammo (see above) and be kiting to find ammo and try to regroup to take on the baddie. Else they can do a knife charge on that FP and call it a day.

How would I fix it? I disagree that a solution is needed. I understand the pov of TWI but see it as a non issue.

In the rare case that somebody trolls and kites forever until everyone quits, you could put in a timer once the last 5 zeds are left. After that time the zeds spontaneously combusts and everyone heads to the trader.

With the dev comment about wanting to always keep on the pressure and stress, it perfectly explains why this game feels so different from KF1. That mentality is why the game is so much more fast paced and spammy than KF1.

KF1 had this slow build up, anxiety of what was around the corner, with each class playing a specific role. Now all roles do just about everything. There is no slow build it, its just a fast paced spam. I am so glad to see that comment as it gives great insight into how and why they changed their formula from a proven success to just another mediocre zombie game.

 

[Gladius]

It forces constant cooperation down the players' throats

And this is a negative? Sometimes the only way to get the desired result is to force it on people. Sui and below you can get away with subpar performance, but HoE is justifiably "cooperate or die". That is what makes it so beautiful, you work with the team or you don't win. Players with a knack for cohesion perform better than those who do not / cannot work with others.

Let me give you an example why forced cooperation is bad. In an controlled envoronment, like playing with friends or solo I can pretty much reliably take skrakes and fleshpounds with the gunslinger. But in pub games where everybody thinks he must

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

Now all roles do just about everything.

I see this everywhere. Everywhere. It makes no sense. Is this mentality fostered in hard mode or something? As of now, there are MORE perks who cannot single handedly topple big zeds as opposed to KF1, where every. single. perk. had a method of dropping a scrake whilst sustaining 0 damage. Try this as a medic now, the team will be taking you to the trader in a bucket.

I'm struggling to understand why this mantra is repeated so much. It's like a bunch of old men talkin' bout the good ol' days when perks was real perks and zeds respected their elders, and I'm saying this as an actual old man with over 1000 hours in KF1.

why forced cooperation is bad.

Let me backpedal on that. Cooperation is not forced on players. It is the decisive factor in attaining victory. If a team wants to win a HoE match, they must know how to cooperate. They don't have to, but they will wind up as zed chow if not. This is why Objective Mode trounced so many people (and why I thought it was a truckload of kicks). It forced everyone to stretch their little zed killing muscles and undoubtedly rusted teamwork skills for something they had never encountered in Killing Floor before. I simply cannot fathom how this is bad for a game with "co-op" in its title. Players don't want to have to rely on others? Why does everyone in this game want to be RONE SAMURAI WARRIOR WITH ONRY HIS BRADE AND HONOR? Such a disgusting mentality.

in pub games where everybody thinks he must

 

[DolphinBuffMan01]

I see this everywhere. Everywhere. It makes no sense. Is this mentality fostered in hard mode or something? As of now, there are MORE perks who cannot single handedly topple big zeds as opposed to KF1, where every. single. perk. had a method of dropping a scrake whilst sustaining 0 damage. Try this as a medic now, the team will be taking you to the trader in a bucket.

If you said any of the slow perks instead of medic, then maybe. But Medic can take out a big zed if separated from the rest of the team or being the last one left because it has the movement speed. With a little bit of patience, anything can be dropped, and that goes for Hans and Pattie too. I don't agree that the slow perks can do this in most cases as they just sustain too much damage (Microwave gun can help though, along with Fear).

Just the other day I was kiting Pattie for around 15 minutes after the rest of the team had died because I was patient and able to deal damage slowly. I still wiped, because I did get impatient. The current "half hour kite" is apparently going to happen in both games.

 

[mrnok14l]

just dont let any big zeds spawn in the end!
when there are less than 40 zeds left, then there shouldnt spawn any fp or scrake.

I think that will instead give the ending of each wave a death sentence saying 'Chill out fellas, no more big guys.'

 

[FoolishNinja]

I think that will instead give the ending of each wave a death sentence saying 'Chill out fellas, no more big guys.'

Well no more big zeds spawns, but there will still be some fps or scrakes lurking around, so its not a big deal tho. Not to mention, people have no ammo in the end anyway.