Gunslinger Perk - Yes or No?
- Thread starter brphoenix
- Start date
I really want to understand where I went against my own word.
Yes, I offered options accepting Handcannon as Tier3. But this is because Zeptorem DID have good arguments. And also because there's plenty people who would prefer an automatic weapon instead of a revolver.
I STILL prefer the revolver. But there are people, as I've said, that don't. So, I just showed different solutions, for different preferences. I am not going against my word.
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I'm sorry but you fail.
You are comparing a match grade pistol with a mass manufactured assault rifle, that's not what we're talking about. Try comparing the accuracy of a standard carry pistol with an assault rifle, that's a fair comparison.
Or if you insist on using a match grade pistol for comparison, then compare it with a match grade rifle. Most match grade rifles can be expected to shoot sub-MOA (as in less than one minute of angle at 100m). There are plenty of civilian AR15 clones out there that will pull 2 MOA or under. My KAR98 Mauser will shoot 2 MOA with good ammo and that was manufactured in 1944, and I haven't done any accurizing work on it at all.
My shoes are staying squarely on my feet, and I still think this perk idea is pointless.
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S&W 500
Reload time: 3 seconds (speed loader, 2 sec at lvl 6)
Clip: 5 rounds
Fire rate: 0.3 sec per round (0.7 seconds practical fire rate bringing gun back on mid-range target, 0.5 sec with less recoil at lvl 5)
Tier: 3
Dual wield-able: No
Burst DPS: 833
Sustained DPS: 278 (comparable to other Tier 3 weapons)
Damage per shot: 235-265
This gun would be a waste on clots but would be good for knocking down gorefasts in one shot from medium range. The Gunslinger perk would bridge the gap between Support and Commando.
How would pistols encroach on the Commando (automatic weapons, reflex sights), Support (short range shotguns, high penetration), or Sharpshooter (headshot/ long range specialist)?
It's a matter of perspective: either have as much variety as possible BETWEEN perks, or have more variety with the perks available. I think more gun options besides SS, Commando and Support would freshen the game up a bit, since you would see more variety with the gun classes, hence more variety overall.
There is a point of diminishing returns where additional perks are not needed and every niche is filled. The question is, are we there yet? Aside from range, where the Gunslinger would fill the gap between Support and Commando, there is a certain set of zeds that each perk is good at killing. The xbow SS is great for killing top tier zeds at long range. The Commando is great against lower tier zeds from short-mid range. The Support is good for low-mid tier zeds from short range. As you see here, there is nothing ideal against mid-level zeds from medium range. The Gunslinger could fill this role with the S&W 500. (Demo does alright against mid-tier zeds at mid-range but should mainly focus on clearing trash groups).
Literally nothing interesting or unique enough? That's a boldly stated matter of opinion. Numerous unique gameplay mechanics have been suggested, such as independant akimbo firing and reload, which would be a skill unique to the GS (like commando seeing stalkers or how the zerk can't be grabbed by clots). I think a lot of players would find this highly appealing, being able to effectively shoot continuously without stopping since you could reload one gun while firing the other. This would be like a ranged berserker with less damage output. The gameplay value could justify the lack of realism. Independant weapon operation would also let you fire two Handcannons at once, which would be like a shotgun blast to a single target. Also having shotgun-like power at mid range (S&W 500) would be very interesting to a lot of players. Also being able to switch between single and dual wield on the fly is a unique idea for the GS perk, which would make it easy to trade range for fire rate and vice versa as the situation dictates. The handgun flexibility alone justifies the perk's existence imo.
I'm not very keen on the manual zed-time trigger ability others have suggested, but the siren resistance would certainly be useful. When a team gets mobbed by 2 or 3 sirens the GS would be the last man standing, giving the team one last chance to finish the round. It could be justified logically from years of practice on the shooting range without ear plugs
Reload time: 3 seconds (speed loader, 2 sec at lvl 6)
Clip: 5 rounds
Fire rate: 0.3 sec per round (0.7 seconds practical fire rate bringing gun back on mid-range target, 0.5 sec with less recoil at lvl 5)
Tier: 3
Dual wield-able: No
Burst DPS: 833
Sustained DPS: 278 (comparable to other Tier 3 weapons)
Damage per shot: 235-265
This gun would be a waste on clots but would be good for knocking down gorefasts in one shot from medium range. The Gunslinger perk would bridge the gap between Support and Commando.
How would pistols encroach on the Commando (automatic weapons, reflex sights), Support (short range shotguns, high penetration), or Sharpshooter (headshot/ long range specialist)?
It's a matter of perspective: either have as much variety as possible BETWEEN perks, or have more variety with the perks available. I think more gun options besides SS, Commando and Support would freshen the game up a bit, since you would see more variety with the gun classes, hence more variety overall.
There is a point of diminishing returns where additional perks are not needed and every niche is filled. The question is, are we there yet? Aside from range, where the Gunslinger would fill the gap between Support and Commando, there is a certain set of zeds that each perk is good at killing. The xbow SS is great for killing top tier zeds at long range. The Commando is great against lower tier zeds from short-mid range. The Support is good for low-mid tier zeds from short range. As you see here, there is nothing ideal against mid-level zeds from medium range. The Gunslinger could fill this role with the S&W 500. (Demo does alright against mid-tier zeds at mid-range but should mainly focus on clearing trash groups).
Literally nothing interesting or unique enough? That's a boldly stated matter of opinion. Numerous unique gameplay mechanics have been suggested, such as independant akimbo firing and reload, which would be a skill unique to the GS (like commando seeing stalkers or how the zerk can't be grabbed by clots). I think a lot of players would find this highly appealing, being able to effectively shoot continuously without stopping since you could reload one gun while firing the other. This would be like a ranged berserker with less damage output. The gameplay value could justify the lack of realism. Independant weapon operation would also let you fire two Handcannons at once, which would be like a shotgun blast to a single target. Also having shotgun-like power at mid range (S&W 500) would be very interesting to a lot of players. Also being able to switch between single and dual wield on the fly is a unique idea for the GS perk, which would make it easy to trade range for fire rate and vice versa as the situation dictates. The handgun flexibility alone justifies the perk's existence imo.
I'm not very keen on the manual zed-time trigger ability others have suggested, but the siren resistance would certainly be useful. When a team gets mobbed by 2 or 3 sirens the GS would be the last man standing, giving the team one last chance to finish the round. It could be justified logically from years of practice on the shooting range without ear plugs
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The way I see it, Gunslinger would be kinda like a combination beetween support and sharpshooter/commando
-> Crowd control on short and medium distances (dual pistols or similar), but being able to cause fair amount of damage on bigger targets further away (magnum?).
Still, it wouldnt be as efficent as support specialist when it comes to crowd control because his shots wont penetrate targets (except for the magnum perhaps), and not as powerful as sharpshooter when it comes to taking out the bigger baddies. Its like "all-situations" perk, which is rather equally balanced to handle anything but still isnt overpowered like the SS is currently. I mean, atm sharpshooter is the "all-situations" perk but I hope they have a fix for it coming.
-> Crowd control on short and medium distances (dual pistols or similar), but being able to cause fair amount of damage on bigger targets further away (magnum?).
Still, it wouldnt be as efficent as support specialist when it comes to crowd control because his shots wont penetrate targets (except for the magnum perhaps), and not as powerful as sharpshooter when it comes to taking out the bigger baddies. Its like "all-situations" perk, which is rather equally balanced to handle anything but still isnt overpowered like the SS is currently. I mean, atm sharpshooter is the "all-situations" perk but I hope they have a fix for it coming.
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This is exactly what I intended this perk to be: an all-around, versatile perk, that has an answer for every given problem. But this comes with a cost: other, "specialized" perks will handle better one thing.
The Gunslinger perk would be a perfect sidekick: he can cover a long-range sharpshooter/demolition taking the small stuff that gets close, he can take down big stuff for a commando/firebug, handle the crowd while a 'zerker takes down that scrake...
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What keeps players from having a full-sharpshooter team?
But really, gunslingers, while being able to handle stuff, are limited by their ammo clips: the biggest one is akimbo 9mm, and it hardly deals any damage.
Compared to the weapons "substitutes", 9mm have 75% of a non-extended bullpup's clip and deal less damage, Handcannon, while having more bullets than a regular shotgun, lacks it's firepower, and the revolver has only six rounds, which is the shortest clip in the game next to hunting shotgun and m79, both having tremendous damage outputs.
So, while a 6-GS team is doable, it would require a lot of skill, cautious ammo management, and is likely to fail if one of the GS can't keep up with the requirements.
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Half-Life 2? (More likely a .44 /shrug)
Uncharted 1&2? (Named the 'Wes')
RE 4&5?
Those are the only ones I can pull off the top of my head right now.
Personally I'd like to see a Machine Pistol if anything was added, but that's just me.
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Nothing, and I've seen it more than once...
But anyway. Let's make a hypothetical situation here. Let's say this post was called "Demolitions Perk - Yes or No?" and it was taking place 3 months ago. I'd wager that a lot of the people who are arguing against the gunslinger perk would argue against Demolitions.
"Demolitions will render this class irrelevant!"
"This perk already does a lot of what Demolitions will do!"
"Give Demo extra grenades? The Support already has that!"
As it stands there's already a lot of perk overlap as it is. The only two roles in this game are either bust up big things or bust up a lot of small things. Some are more to one extreme, some are more to the other extreme, and some fall in the middle ground.
So long as the perk is fun and balanced, who gives a flying circus if it overlaps with perks that already satisfy that role? That's already happening now. That argument is moot.
So let's remove the "Gunslinger already does what this perk does" argument from the table. What's left?
Gunslinger will be ineffective at range? So's Firebug, Support, and Berserker.
Gunslinger won't be all that accurate with firing really fast? Neither is commando's higher tier weapons, the M32 MGL, the AA12, etc.
The only arguments I see against Gunslinger here (which aren't stated) are:
1) "I don't want to level up a new perk."
2) "I like things the way there are, therefore change is wrong."
3) "This perk will be stupid/impractical" (and, in the meantime, disregarding the impracticality of wielding a chainsaw, a "flamethrower", two Deagles, etc. etc.
When I see someone come up with an argument or statement that actually has a good reason for Gunslinger perk to not be included (and isn't hypocritical as all hell), then maybe we can have a real discussion.
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Every Half-Life game had a .357 Anaconda.
Except Opposing Force. Go ahead and guess what it had instead...
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Yeah- the mod had a machine pistol that you could find, but not buy from the store. The only place I remember it being was behind one of the paintings in Offices on the second floor (KF 2.5)
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Now, try listing all games featuring desert eagle. All I'll say is the list is HUGE.
Both revolvers and machine pistols have their advantages and disadvantages. But adding a revolver would help achieve this perk's intended versatility.
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Pistoler, imo should have NO automatic weapons. Instead the cap on the firing-rate for pistols should be lowered so that the primary firing button could be hit really fast to result in fast shooting. (like specialists mod [old reference])
/end my 2 cents
/end my 2 cents
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I do like the revolver over machine pistol. It think gun slinger should have an itchy trigger finger, not an automatic. The medic may prefer to have an automatic pistol.
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Nothing, and I've seen it more than once...
But anyway. Let's make a hypothetical situation here. Let's say this post was called "Demolitions Perk - Yes or No?" and it was taking place 3 months ago. I'd wager that a lot of the people who are arguing against the gunslinger perk would argue against Demolitions.
"Demolitions will render this class irrelevant!"
"This perk already does a lot of what Demolitions will do!"
"Give Demo extra grenades? The Support already has that!"
As it stands there's already a lot of perk overlap as it is. The only two roles in this game are either bust up big things or bust up a lot of small things. Some are more to one extreme, some are more to the other extreme, and some fall in the middle ground.
So long as the perk is fun and balanced, who gives a flying circus if it overlaps with perks that already satisfy that role? That's already happening now. That argument is moot.
So let's remove the "Gunslinger already does what this perk does" argument from the table. What's left?
Gunslinger will be ineffective at range? So's Firebug, Support, and Berserker.
Gunslinger won't be all that accurate with firing really fast? Neither is commando's higher tier weapons, the M32 MGL, the AA12, etc.
The only arguments I see against Gunslinger here (which aren't stated) are:
1) "I don't want to level up a new perk."
2) "I like things the way there are, therefore change is wrong."
3) "This perk will be stupid/impractical" (and, in the meantime, disregarding the impracticality of wielding a chainsaw, a "flamethrower", two Deagles, etc. etc.
When I see someone come up with an argument or statement that actually has a good reason for Gunslinger perk to not be included (and isn't hypocritical as all hell), then maybe we can have a real discussion.
naysayers got pwned.
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