Guns Are Way Too Accurate

[melipone]

Its not RNG if its under the player's control. Its added realistic difficulty. It worked in Ostfront

Sway that pulls against your movement makes you learn the sway patterns or predict the way you have to adjust your aim to stay on target. Its too light and simple in RO2 for all guns, and you even have a way to totally negate it anywhere. In Ost you could rest the gun but you had to do that from cover and if you moved the mouse quick you would stop resting. In RO2 its like you rest your gun at any time, have faster ROF, and the guns settle faster with lower recoil

You can have predictable recoil patterns that people learn, or encourage people to take short bursts so you can't just hold down left mouse button and correct mistakes as you make them with small movements

Some bullet deviation based on the gun type - not a lot, just enough to make a difference between the weapon types. Bolts 100% accurate, semi's less, and SMG less again. Recoil should account for most inaccuracy though, and sway should add some more.

Its all down to the player though as you can learn to control it

 

[Paas]

I've always said its a case of realism and gameplay. I have stated plenty of times why I think the lack of sway or easy aim is unrealistic. Each time its ignored, along with the plenty of other unrealistic things that people DO want, while wanting to keep the guns as they are. Just to go over it again...actually I'll just quote myself:

Simply interfacing with a mouse makes it unrealistic as well. Do you think getting muscle memory and fine motor controls from repeating the same actions from a comfy position compares to holding a heavy weapon in the cold while scared and full of adrenaline (that makes you act without hardly thinking, reduces dexterity for speed)? To compensate you adjust stats if necessary to mimic realism, or make it harder to control the weapon

I wish people would talk about the gameplay, because thats the bottom line in why they're talking about realism in the first place. The realism side of it is virtually a non-issue, as people don't seem to mind realism unless it influences their sense of fun gameplay

I don't think this will go anywhere though, I said pretty much everything in pervious posts

I completely understand what you're saying. I cannot comment about combat stress in the 40s fighting without body armor, without optics, and without the years of training we get before boots hit soil (in some cases).

What I can say is I know, from combat experience, that combat related stress does not suddenly make your rifle nearly impossible to control. The notion that there is no sway in this game is false, it's blatantly there for everyone to see. Hell, your weapon even moves with your breathing while you're supported. I can't see adding to the amount of sight picture deviation already present. Given the ranges I'm typically hitting people at (under 100m, sometimes out to 200m) there really shouldn't be a noticeable sight picture deviation. The main complications of close range combat shooting is trigger control and the correct hold.

Now as for control after getting shot. Everyone knows that's kind of screwy and hopefully the developers will look into that.

-Paas

 

[Josef Nader]

Its not RNG if its under the player's control. Its added realistic difficulty. It worked in Ostfront

Right, and as Paas keeps saying, there IS sway. I shouldn't have to time my shots between the rifle wildly swinging back and forth across the screen. Real combat stress isn't that predictable, I can assure you. It's just a random number generator spitting out a value and deciding whether or not you timed your shot right. It's a decidedly fake mechanic designed to add artificial difficulty and compensate for the low draw distances in most games. If you can't see past 50 yards, it's not really fair to have the basic rifles accurate out to 300 yards, as it'll be an unstoppable sniper rifle from up close. Hence, the devs of yore added sway to balance things out. We have moved past the need for such clumsy mechanics.

 

[melipone]

If the gun is dipping down and left, then you move the mouse up and right to compensate. Imagine you're in control of the hands and arms rather than the crosshair. It adds a difficulty factor for people to learn the more they play (long term appeal), and encourages people to use different stances, and to weigh the pro's and con's of each. Now its hardly there

A lot of the fun things people describe about having easier guns are still present in Ostfront. Its just a bit more rewarding to play imo, and I much rather get killed in that game as you know the player at least had to try a bit

Not hating on RO2 though, I like it. Its like learning to ride a bike and then someone puts stabilisers on it (not really, exaggerating quite a bit but thats kinda the feeling). I'll adjust, see if I can enjoy it for other reasons

 

[ross]

If the gun is dipping down and left, then you move the mouse up and right to compensate. Imagine you're in control of the hands and arms rather than the crosshair. It adds a difficulty factor for people to learn the more they play (long term appeal), and encourages people to use different stances, and to weigh the pro's and con's of each.

One of the things I absolutely bloody hate about ArmA is the sway, which is more in line with what people seem to be suggesting. In Ostfront it was manageable while prone or rested but I couldn't hit a damn thing standing or even crouched unsupported, even at relatively close range. In ArmA I'm lucky to do the same. Both of these might seem more 'realistic' to you, but they are just frustrating to me. If I see an enemy 100m in front of me and I am crouching or standing, as long as I have not just sprinted flat out or run several hundred metres, I should be able to hit them. At this point you're suggesting we add an artificial, arbitrary penalty to players' accuracy - because it is definitely both of those things - just to 'balance' the game out for our new friends from other games who apparently don't realise that running around head-up in an open area is a terrible idea in either Red Orchestra game.

I've said before, I'd support stronger sway after you've exhausted your stamina, but absolutely not at any other time. I am easily frustrated by ArmA because I miss shots I know I would easily hit in any other game, and it's just an added layer of insult if I miss a shot I know I could've taken with a real weapon. I can understand the rationale between making the player temporarily unable to headshot someone from 2-300m away after sprinting for a while, but to make such severe sway as that normal? No thanks. It's not realistic, it's annoying.

I think A LOT of people need to also realise that targets in the game are nowhere near as far away as they look. In fact, with my FOV set at 85, the ~100m gap from the 5th floor to the yard wall on Grain Elevator looks more like 200 or even 250m. 100m is an easy shot from any position and with a rested, properly zeroed rifle or from a stable position almost ANYONE would be able to consistently score hits. 200m is still easy from a stable position, and 300m is entirely possible from a supported position. From the prone I'd say even 4-500m should be for more experienced players. I do not suddenly want to be missing easy shots on full profile targets at 150-200m because someone had a hissyfit about being shot by riflemen when they should not be exposing themselves from cover like that anyway.

I'd also like to add that my current mouse is not a gaming mouse and is certainly not suitable for long shots. The DPI is so low I was missing people by several inches at 200m in Ostfront, something I never did with my older, higher-resolution mouse. RO2 is also pretty sluggish for me so far as my 560Ti has been playing up and even if it wasn't, my older CPU bottlenecks it. Even making an accurate shot is a serious pain for me at the moment, having to fight sway with this mouse would just be the final straw.

e/ I'm just tacking thoughts onto this as they hit me, but really if you found a rest for your rifle in Ostfront you were laughing. Most people in that game would just prone behind a berm or crouch in a window at which point it was pretty easy to pixel-snipe so much as an inch of exposed flesh at the same combat ranges we're talking in RO2, the only difference was that you didn't have the FOV shrinkage zoom to help out so beyond that range the sight post would totally obscure your target, which wasn't even close to realistic. I guarantee if Ostfront had that same feature, people wouldn't have such rosy memories of 'weapons where you at least had to try'. Don't get me wrong, not everyone can pixel snipe, but most longtime FPS players have little trouble with it and for habitual RO players like me it got very easy very fast.

 

[melipone]

I'd also like to add that my current mouse is not a gaming mouse and is certainly not suitable for long shots. The DPI is so low I was missing people by several inches at 200m in Ostfront, something I never did with my older, higher-resolution mouse. RO2 is also pretty sluggish for me so far as my 560Ti has been playing up and even if it wasn't, my older CPU bottlenecks it. Even making an accurate shot is a serious pain for me at the moment, having to fight sway with this mouse would just be the final straw.

This is pretty OT, I'll use spoiler tags, some boring stuff about mice (just my opinions ofc)

Spoiler!

DPI isn't really an issue in games, its a marketing gimic mostly as long as you have enough for your resolution. You probably just need to get used to it. Its (horizontal resolution x 4) / inches for 360 turn ingame = minimum DPI to not skip pixels for 90 degree fov. So for 1024x768 with 10 inches its 410 dpi. Skipping pixels doesn't even matter imo, its no big deal. If you don't skip pixels with your movement then more won't do anything, just risk you getting negative acceleration. Set windows to 6/11 and turn off pointer precision (acceleration is bad for most people and is default on for windows, and even turns itself on sometimes)

You might miss more now because its just a shape that isn't good for you. Shape and size is usually the most important thing in a mouse and can determine how you hold it, so your muscles have to get used to it again, or even aim differently if you change the size enough.

The best thing to do is have the sensitivity as low as you can comfortably use it..you don't need to be able to spin around 360 degrees etc. The lower it is the easier it is to aim. The speed comes as you get used to it, and its 9/10 better not to miss than to move fast, and the high the sens the slower you have to move it anyway. It balances out

BTW in Ostfront you would be under pressure to complete the objective, like RO2. People who sat and camped all game weren't really doing their team much of a favour unless they were defending, so you wouldn't always be able to get in a rested position.

 

[Deek]

I feel unsupported, unsuppressed, full stamina sway is relatively reasonable where it currently is. It exists, but it isn't over the top. Considering that this is the second best case scenario for a soldier behind supported, unsuppressed and max stamina. If someone is moving slowly in iron sights, controlling their breath, there shouldn't be a ton of sway. A little, sure, and that already exists.

I only support "excessive" sway in very specific circumstances:

When it's in direct relation to your stamina bar. The less stamina you have, the more sway there should be. As soon as your stamina bar begins to refill (instantly), sway is reduced proportionate to your total stamina. This already exists. Sort of. I flip flop as to whether I believe it's enough. I honestly feel it could be bumped up a little for someone who has bottomed out their stamina bar directly into iron sights.

Suppression. If you are unsupported and suppressed, bring on the sway. If you're supported and suppressed ... good luck? I haven't really attempted to bring up iron sights while suppressed, to be honest, so this might already be implemented to a reasonable degree for all I know.

As an effect of being wounded, especially in the arms. This needs to be implemented big time.

 

[ross]

This is pretty OT, I'll use spoiler tags, some boring stuff about mice (just my opinions ofc)

Spoiler!

DPI isn't really an issue in games, its a marketing gimic mostly as long as you have enough for your resolution. You probably just need to get used to it. Its (horizontal resolution x 4) / inches for 360 turn ingame = minimum DPI to not skip pixels for 90 degree fov. So for 1024x768 with 10 inches its 410 dpi. Skipping pixels doesn't even matter imo, its no big deal. If you don't skip pixels with your movement then more won't do anything, just risk you getting negative acceleration. Set windows to 6/11 and turn off pointer precision (acceleration is bad for most people and is default on for windows, and even turns itself on sometimes)

You might miss more now because its just a shape that isn't good for you. Shape and size is usually the most important thing in a mouse and can determine how you hold it, so your muscles have to get used to it again, or even aim differently if you change the size enough.

The best thing to do is have the sensitivity as low as you can comfortably use it..you don't need to be able to spin around 360 degrees etc. The lower it is the easier it is to aim. The speed comes as you get used to it, and its 9/10 better not to miss than to move fast, and the high the sens the slower you have to move it anyway. It balances out

BTW in Ostfront you would be under pressure to complete the objective, like RO2. People who sat and camped all game weren't really doing their team much of a favour unless they were defending, so you wouldn't always be able to get in a rested position.

Thanks - looks like it turned acceleration back on behind my back (

), which explains why I thought it was so oversensitive. Hopefully this will fix my woes ingame, where I was skipping pixels in RO1 (and therefore missing) and skipping like 3-5px scoped. I do want one of those flashy mice with on-the-fly sensitivity adjustment, though. They sound neat.

RE: rested positions - you don't even need a window, though. There were a lot of points within capzones (maps with foxholes or craters, the berms on K

 

[Spindle]

I was using an MG(deployed) and suddenly 3 guys pop out of a window. I manage to kill 2 of them. (My guess is the third is suppressed). Still firing short bursts, but then he just pops out likes its nothing and puts a bullet through my skull...


---> There should be ALOT more sway when you are supressed


-Spindle

 

[MikkOwl]

I completely understand what you're saying. I cannot comment about combat stress in the 40s fighting without body armor, without optics, and without the years of training we get before boots hit soil (in some cases).

What I can say is I know, from combat experience, that combat related stress does not suddenly make your rifle nearly impossible to control. The notion that there is no sway in this game is false, it's blatantly there for everyone to see. Hell, your weapon even moves with your breathing while you're supported. I can't see adding to the amount of sight picture deviation already present. Given the ranges I'm typically hitting people at (under 100m, sometimes out to 200m) there really shouldn't be a noticeable sight picture deviation. The main complications of close range combat shooting is trigger control and the correct hold.

Now as for control after getting shot. Everyone knows that's kind of screwy and hopefully the developers will look into that.

-Paas

Paas, I much appreciate all the efforts you put into sharing your experience with us. Politically cannot say for sure that the sacrifices you and your buddies have made were for a good, mixed or bad cause - I just don't know enough about it all to have an informed opinion. but I admire the qualities that make you able to put yourself on the line like that. Not sure I could do the same. Wish you all a long, happy and successful life.

I have some questions for you that I would like your opinion on.

1. In what situations were you trained to switch to automatic fire? Ranges, goals. Clearly single fire is used for most situations.

2. Short bursts only?

3. Regarding suppression: I read the USMC M16A2 operators manual and it taught different types of suppressive fire (I think, can't remember). Is a constant stream of single shots every couple of seconds the method primarily taught?

4. Any training on shooting through cover? Any tips that could apply to RO2?

5. How is the MG man supposed to avoid getting shot and killed once he reveals himself (obviously) by firing? Apart from making himself a very, very small target.

6. You have made it clear that stability when firing at closer ranges is not a problem, even after having sprinted shorter distances. How would intense fear, nearby LOUD explosions, sharpnel/fragments (splinters etc from bullets hitting nearby) and supersonic bullets (that sound like angry bees) passing by inches from one's head, affect aim? I personally get very shaky hands when under great stress.

7. Haven't read what rifles you were trained with. But the most likely AR15 type assault rifles you probably used are different from the ones in RO2. In comparison, they are light-weight (all the rifles in RO2 weigh about 25-30% more). Shorter. Highly ergonomic. Awesome ghost ring sights at a nice comfortable height (the best I have used. Other sights, especially the flat standard type like on the AKM, are much slower to align and obscure half the target). The stock is in-line with the barrel, and the compensator at the tip of the muzzle, both make the barrel not flip upwards when firing rapidly. Recoil per shot is probably less. The pistol grip is nice and sturdy.

Do you think it is possible that this would make the rifles in RO2 somewhat more cumbersome to shoulder, align the sights with the eye and then put it over a target? As in just requiring a bit more time and effort compared to our modern rifles.

8. When firing the RO2 semi-automatics very rapidly, would these battle rifles have to fight at all with the recoil and muzzle flip to keep it somewhat on target? There is some of this represented in the game - can't fire ultra rapid at something more than 50 meters away and keep it dead on. But if they are just a bit closer, no problem to keep it steady. Not exactly smooth correct trigger pull when pulling it furiously like that. The M14 which you may have trained on, might be a good comparison, since it fires about the same cartridge, the stock is not in-line with the barrel, the weight is the same, operation is about the same.

9. On the weapons you trained on, how much does overheating the barrel affect accuracy? At what point beyond that would there start to be a risk of cook-off? And, at what point would there be a chance of jamming due to deformation of parts, or even total breakdown? (I'm sure this is not modeled in RO2. Like with the absense of failure to feed and duds. I badly want those.) Overheating the barrel on the bolts and semi-autos in RO2 is probably impossible due to the heavy nature of the barrels and very low sustained rate of fire / limited ammunition.

Thank you for your time.