Good Racing game controller for PC?

[Grobut]

What gamepad are you using for that?

If you need a good controller, i'd recommend either an Xbox360 controller, or a Logitech Rumblepad-2 (copy of the PS3 controller), thouse work well.

The Xbox controller has an advantage with it's analog shoulder triggers, which can come in handy, but the drawback is that it comes with no programming software, you'll have to find a 3rd party one like Xpadder or Joy2key if you need to make it do anything out of the ordinary, and a lot of people don't like it's D-pad.

The Rumblepad-2 is just plain a really good copy of the PS3 controller, it does what it's supposed to and it feels like good quality, and the programming software that comes with it works quite well and is easy to deal with.

Nah I'm a tight bugger.

The way it's setup is acceleration and braking on the left stick, and steering on the right stick. It's a bit annoying as it stops me from using throttle and brake at the same time - plus manual gearing really isn't much of an option. I've tried using the clutch as one of the buttons on the rear, and the gearchange itself using the 2 shoulder buttons. Just doesn't feel right. The G25 comes with a gearstick so I'll enjoy that a great deal

There would be some more options in an Xbox controller, what with the analog shoulder triggers, but as they are a joint axis, not two sepperate ones, not much more (IE, if you set them to throttle and brake, you still coulden't brake and accelerate at the same time, holding them both in would just cancel eachother out, so you'd have to get a bit creative to make it work).

But you'll definately enjoy that G-25, i've had mine for some time now, and it's great fun, best wheel i've had by far.

 

[Murphy]

Your point regarding consoles would be stronger (from a gameplay point of view) if gamepads didn't offer a fraction of the precision they do offer. Since they do offer a lot of precision (for racing! less so for fps, because a different kind of precision is needed there) games do not have to be specifically designed to work with a gamepad OR a wheel.

Your point would also be stronger if there weren't steering wheels for consoles and not supporting them wouldn't be as big of a drawback for a console game as it would be for a pc game. A simulation HAS to support a steering wheel. Console or not.
The Forza games and the Grand Turismo games (I don't know about the very old ones, but the recent ones from the ps2 onwards) work VERY well with steering wheels, for example.

So if a game has bad steering wheel support, as in, it's lacking options for calibration, then it has bad gamepad support as well! It's still easier to play with a gamepad because you can drive soft turns by tapping the stick like you would tap a key on the keyboard, but it's still not a good gamepad support. A game like that is just a badly programmed game. Console or not. To be fair most wheels and gamepads come with drivers that allow you to calibrate them with profiles for games (even my ancient wheel) so it's not that big a deal.
If a game has bad steering wheel support, as in, no or bad force feedback then yes, this could be due to it being a console port and the little force feedback they have was added as a low-budget after-thought. But that shouldn't have too much of an impact on the playability of the game! Unless it's a simulation where you may need the force feedback - but those usually work (console or not)...

So yeah, it's mainly your console paranoia I don't agree with. Other than that we are pretty much on the same page.

 

[SheepDip]

I have actually used XPadder with this gamepad before to play Geometry Wars (doesnt detect the other analog stick otherwise).

Found it a really handy piece of softwares

 

[Grobut]

Your point regarding consoles would be stronger (from a gameplay point of view) if gamepads didn't offer a fraction of the precision they do offer. Since they do offer a lot of precision (for racing! less so for fps, because a different kind of precision is needed there) games do not have to be specifically designed to work with a gamepad OR a wheel.

This is where we'll have to agree to disagree, i can definately feel a huge difference in accuracy, and the more realistic the game's physics, the more it matters to me.

Basically, your average gamepad's thumbsticks only travel about 1cm from it's center to it's extreme, so thats's 1cm from 0% to 100% or -100%, but on my wheel, my pedals travel about 7cm from 0% to 100%, and my wheel, having the full 900 degrees of rotation, i'm not even going to count the cm's of travel, that ball has left the ballpark!

The limiting factor here is my thumbs, sure both are axies that go from 0-100, in theory they should be able to do exactly the same thing, but my thumbs are making all the difference, in just 1cm of travel i can't make them as accurate as i can with a 900deg wheel.


But if you're feeling sporty, i'll extend to you a challenge, you own both a wheel and gamepad i trust? so let's put it to the test why not!

If you don't allready have any of thease games, go grab the demo for GT-Legends, GTR2 or RACE-WTCC, and see what lap-times you can pull off on max realism settings with your wheel, then do it again with your gamepad and see if you can match that..

I have actually used XPadder with this gamepad before to play Geometry Wars (doesnt detect the other analog stick otherwise).

Found it a really handy piece of softwares

Xpadder seems very good, but it also costs teh monies, so that may scare some people away.. an alternative is Joy2key, it's free, but not quite as powerfull (atleast not yet), but good enough for most things.

 

[SheepDip]

On a side topic - Grobut me old mucka', how wide do the desk clamps on the gearshift and the wheel go?

I've been trying to find out and have conflicting information, some say 35mm - some others say 52mm, and my desk is 49mm deep!

 

[Grobut]

On a side topic - Grobut me old mucka', how wide do the desk clamps on the gearshift and the wheel go?

I've been trying to find out and have conflicting information, some say 35mm - some say 50mm, and my desk is 49mm deep!

Can't tell you for sure, my wheel's stored away in the attic (seeing as i can't use it right now anyway), and me sitting here with a busted foot, i can't get to it..

But it'll gape quite wide, 5cm sounds about right, the conflicting info may stem from the chocks, there's a pair of removable chocks on it that you use if you have a very thin desk, so if they measured with thouse still on then yeah, it'll probably only do 3

 

[Murphy]

You can't really put up centimeter per percent vs. centimeter per percent because you control a steering wheel with your hands and the thumbstick with your thumbs. That's a fundamental difference right there. Also you leave out that with a stick you are a lot faster than with a wheel. Not really important in normal situations, but suppose you want to countersteer it's quite handy.
When all is said and done, of course a wheel is much better for precision and thus better for realistic racing games than a gamepad. I never disputed that! Ever.
But still games don't have to be specifically tailored to gamepads since gamepads are good enough. It's not at all like the thumbstick vs. mouse thing in shooters where a bit of auto-aim or sticky crosshairs are needed to bring the thumbsticks up to speed. Or games have to specifically designed to work better with a gamepad (e.g. cover systems were probably born out of this as they slow down the game a lot and you have enough time to take aim behind cover, then pop out and shoot and vice versa. That just reeks of accomodating gamepads - in addition to the cinematic qualities such systems are meant to offer). None of that is needed in racing games.
So what if you get worse times with a gamepad than you would get with a wheel in Forza. It's still perfectly enjoyable.
It's a bit like the difference between playing RO in 1024*768 on a 19" with a 600dpi mouse and in 1680*1050 ona 22" with a 1600dpi mouse. Sure, one is better than the other, but it's not like the other isn't playable (in fact it's exactly how I played RO through the mod days and the early weeks of retail).
So obviously you are right in that steering wheels are more precise than gamepads. No need to even discus that, really. But it still doesn't support your consolization paranoia.

Because someone asked about the 360 controller before: I think it's worth mentioning the 360 controller doesn't have analog buttons anymore! If you want a gamepad with a similar design and similar production qualities you could try the old xbox controller with a usb adapter. The xbcd drivers are pretty good and offer enough options for calibration and the buttons are all analog (not sure about the d-pad).

 

[Grobut]

You still don't get my argument Murphy, but it's very simple:

You mention that with a gamepad you can steer contra very rapidly, much faster than you could with a wheel, this is true, but try doing that in GTR2 and see what happens.. you will loose control of the car, because of the games realistic handling the cars cannot be steered that agressively, they will either loose traction and you will skid right into the nearest guardrail, or they will spin out of control.

The game's physics where made for realism, and that means driving with a wheel, it will not accomodate the fast moves that are possible with a gamepad, or the small jerky moves that people often do with them, that will cause the cars to fishtail violently and again, spin out, for this reason, this game is extremely difficult to play with a gamepad, i tried, very hard, and i still found myself going off the track atleast twice every lap trying to go at the speeds i normally do effortlesly with a wheel.

GTR2 is a prime example of a game made for sterring wheels, it may be physically possible to assign the axies to thouse of a gamepad, but driving with one is horrible! it's allmost impossible to control it, even if you turn off all the realism options it's still much too hard, and on full-real it's a nightmare, you know thouse maze games where you rotate two knobs, and have to make a little steel ball go through the maze without falling into the little holes? it feels like that, just one tiny little wrong move of your fingers and it all goes horribly wrong..


And on the opposite side of the spectrum, you have games like CMR-2005 and Trackmania, again, here it is physically possible to assign the axies to thouse of a steering wheel, but how do they play with that? not well, in CMR the controls feel fishy and unresponsive, and just plain bad, and in Trackmania you contsantly need to violently throw the car around to do all kinds of oddball stunts, and with a wheel you will often never make thouse turns in time (you also have to keep up your speed up to make certain jumps and loops), many of thouse tracks seem impossible to do with a wheel, thease are prime examples of games that are more enjoyable with a gamepad.

Is that not just a simple observation? it seems pretty common sense to me, i can play thease games, and it is very obvious to me that the input device i am using makes a big difference in my enjoyment of thease games, GTR2 i can enjoy with a wheel, but with a gamepad i find it extremely frustrating and un-fun, CMR-2005 i find unrewarding with a wheel as it feels wrong, but it works well with a gamepad, and Trackmania i often cannot beat certain tracks with the wheel at all, but with a gamepad it's allways a hoot.


As for "consolization paranoia" as you put it, i just made one very simple observation, namely that the consoles seem to have a higher ratio of arcade, and relaxed realism racers, than they do very realistic racing simulators.

And on the flipside, you find more realistic racing titles on the PC, i could mention many on the PC, SimBin alone has made a whole bunch of them, and then you have Granprix Legends, R-Factor and Rally Trophy and the like, whereas there's only a couple on the Consoles that approach that level of realism.

Can you really disagree with this observation? can you show me a catalogue of very realistic Console race titles that rivals that present on the PC?


That is all i am saying Murphy:

1) Some games ARE more fun when played with a wheel, and some more fun with a gamepad (and it doesen't matter if its physically possible to play it with the opposite, we're only talking about how much you enjoy the experiance here).

2) The PC has a larger catalogue of very realistic racing games, the sort that are usually best played with a wheel, whereas the Consoles have fewer such titles, and they have more Arcade titles like the Wipeout and Ridge-Racer series.

And i am of the very simple opinion that it is usefull to have both a wheel AND a gamepad for this simple reason, remember? that how this argument started.
There are many games that do work well with either of the two, but there are certainly also games that seem to have a prefrence for one or the other, hence i own both and use both.

Surely you can see the logic in that?

 

[Murphy]

You still don't get my argument Murphy, but it's very simple:

You mention that with a gamepad you can steer contra very rapidly

Thanks for missing my point completely. You don't read what I say, you just pick it apart and look for tiny bits you can take out of context and smash. You do this in almost every discussion on almost every board I have see you, btw and it's always obnoxious when you do it, even if I tend to agree with your views pretty often.

I said you can't compare cm per % of the axis of a thumbstick and cm per % of the axis of a steering wheel because of numerous factors, including, but not limited to, different advantages and disadvantages that come with it (and I specifically mentioned that the speed is not worth a lot and only helpful in a few selected situations. E.g. for drifts - which is what would happen if you yanked the stick in a realistic racing game, to answer your little experiment...). My main point was that thumbsticks are controlled with thumbs and wheels with hands, so you can be a little more surgical with sticks than with a wheel (which doesn't mean sticks are more precise, but it means the 1cm you have on the stick can be used a lot better than 1cm on a wheel).

I also said that even taking everything into account a wheel is still a LOT more precise. So you see I get your point completely. It is after all simple enough for me.

You, however, did not get my point yet. And from your responses I gather you don't just disagree with it, but you really didn't grasp it yet. So let me rephrase it and repeat it once more:

I said that games don't have to be designed for gamepads in a way that makes them unsuited for steering wheels.

E.g. a game like Forza or even it's more arcadey brother PGR (just to pick two ends of the realistic racer spectrum - simulation and fun - and two console exclusive tiles). It's perfectly playable with a gamepad, obviously, being a game for a console that comes with one and all, but if you watch replays of people driving they don't drive smoothly! They sometimes have to tap the stick to drive soft turns because you can't hit the angle of the stick just right because it's just not precise enough (unlike a wheel. See? I still got your point in mind. I'm not ignoring it). So you have to tap it to get the car to go where you want it. It looks almost exactly like the person was playing with a keyboard, except not in every single turn and maybe not quite as extreme - but pretty close.

A steering wheel allows you to drive those games perfectly smooth! So those games are not dumbed down for gamepads (as you can see when you still see the obvious gamepad shortcomings glaring at you when you watch a replay) because they are perfectly playable with a gamepad as they are (in the sense that you can enjoy them without constantly feeling overly crippled, unless you are a fanatic in which case you own a wheel anyway) but they are obviously not perfectly playable (in the sense that you can't get perfect lap times and you can't drive smoothly).

Now tell me, what game can be more "consolized" than actual console exclusives that work on consoles and nothing but consoles! Yet those don't show any sign of this consolization you speak of!

Now I made my point as clear as I can make it and since I feel like my arguments concerning this are irrefutable (I mean, just look at the games...) you either have to accept them and admit defeat p) or just plainly have a different opinion which looks equally irrefutable from your point of view so we have to agree to disagree like you suggested earlier.
I just had to refuse because I felt like you didn't get my point yet but now that I spelled it out again, as clearly as possible with my limited conversation skills, I'm sure you got my point as well as I got yours and if you still disagree that's how it is.
At least we don't have to disagree because of a misunderstanding.

One last thing, just to poke your sides:
Some console shooters lack options too, you know? Some can't be set to southpaw or legacy controls and in some you can't even change the sensitivity of the sticks! Ah am outraged!
But I don't cry "pcification" because on the pc no one uses southpaw, legacy or sticks!

 

[fiftyone]

I voted for this thread...Carry on chaps.

 

[LemoN]

great discussion *grabs popcorn*

 

[Grobut]

This is going nowhere Murphy, you accuse me of not reading your posts (i have, i have even given you leanghthy and detailed replies), but you aren't reading mine, instead, all you have done is jump all over this tiny aside i posted: "mainly the console ports", and ever since you have been trying to put words in my mouth, trying to turn this into a Console versus PC argument that it never was.

My point had nothing to do with consoles and you should see that if you re-read that post, it had everything to do with "owning both a wheel and a gamepad is a good idea", and nothing more (it's even true if you are a Console player, the point is not even limited to the PC players).
A simple point i'd think, but you have been ignoring it ever since.


But let me take one last stab at this, you wrote:

I said that games don't have to be designed for gamepads in a way that makes them unsuited for steering wheels.

I have never, ever, disputed that, infact, in my previous post, which you seem to have utterly ignored (save for the headliner), i wrote:

There are many games that do work well with either of the two, but there are certainly also games that seem to have a prefrence for one or the other, hence i own both and use both.

The worst thing is, you don't even disagree with that, you have said yourself that CMR-2005 showed a prefrence for gamepads, you said the same about one of the NFS games, and now also that Forza shows a prefrence for wheels.
That is my only little point, and you agree with it, and had you not been so buissy trying to pigeonhole me, we could have left it at that, instead, here we are 2 pages later and here comes the name-calling..

Well i'll leave you to that, if you still can't see my simple point (that owning both a wheel and a gamepad is usefull), then i am done with this.

 

[Murphy]

I never disagreed with that (how could I) and this was never why I started posting in this thread (why would I).

I started posting because of this:

But personally i have found there can be a big difference in what games control well with what, some games, mainly the console ports, are definately designed to be played with a gamepad, and many of them actually don't work very well with a steeringwheel

Because I wanted to point out that this has nothing to do with them being console ports and everything with what kind of game they are.
Rally or "normal" racing, arcade or realistic/sim, crappy or well made, etc. But not "console port or not".

Me defending the precision of a gamepad had nothing to do with me diminishing the advantages of a wheel and everything with me pointing out that gamepads are precise enough (not more) so racing games don't have to be designed around the abilities of a gamepad as a gamepad is capable enough to control a steering wheel game well enough.

My point was that gameplay that favors gamepads over wheels is not a sign of consolization.

My other point was, that lacking wheel support also shouldn't be a sign of consolization since lacking wheel support is something to scoff at on consoles too (at least for realistic racing games. No one cares if Burnout supports it, but neither would anyone care if it was on pc).

Yet you started listing realistic pc games argueing that console games are less realistic in general, most likely implying that this has to do with their gamepads.
You repeatedly said bad car physics are sometimes there to accomodate a gamepad because a gamepad works better with them than a wheel (example: Colin McRae) and I merely said that bad car physics are just bad car physics, regardless of what you play it with. I even offered a possible explanation why CMR feels more off with a wheel than with a gamepad or a keyboard.

What really told me you didn't get my point was that you dared me to play a lap with a wheel and one with a gamepad and compare times although I repeatedly said I do not dispute a wheel is more fit for a realistic racing game than a gamepad.
All I ever disputed in this topic was that realistic racing games have to be consolized to make up for shortcomings of a gamepad.
a) because gamepads are capable enough for the casual crowd to enjoy the game
b) because the non-casual crowd has a wheel anyways - even on consoles.

And that's pretty much it.
All I wanted was for you to retract your console port statement and drop the consolization accusations because in my opinion they do not fit here.
If it was about shooters you would have a point, but not really when it comes to racing games.
Everything else we more or less agree on anyways.

 

[Grobut]

You read too much into it, i was simply saying that the Consoles have more arcade titles, whereas the PC has a bigger catalogue of realistic ones, i was simply pointing out a trend, i was not suggesting that all console titles wont work with a wheel.

And i think you'll have to agree with that, on the PC there are many fairly to very realistic titles, but there's not a whole lot for the Consoles, Forza comes to mind, but there aren't a whole lot of them, it's much more stuff like the NFS series, Flatout, Wipeout, Ridge-Racer, Burnout, the Consoles have a big catalogue of such games (some of which get ported to the PC also), the PC has some too but much fewer.
And then there's the middle of the road stuff (that work well with both wheels and pads, usually), both platforms have lots of thouse.

And i never said that all games that have bad wheel support is proof of "consolization", how many times have i mentioned "Trackmania" in this thread? that's a PC title, and it sucks with a steering wheel, infact, it doesen't even support force-feedback, only Rumble.

But yes, i maintain that casual/arcade racers (yes, i considder CMR-2005 a casual racer, i certainly can't take it serious with thouse physics) are often ment to be played with a gamepad, their target audience is likely to use one, who wants to play Burnout with a wheel? it's too much effort for such a game.

 

[Murphy]

Ok then.
I'm still wondering, why didn't you make the distinction of arcade vs. realistic but had to drag "mainly the console ports" and "designed for gamepads" into this?
And why didn't you just agree when I first pointed out that it's not consolization that is to blame but kept on arguing when we agreed on everything but the "games have to be designed for gamepads and then wheels don't work well in them" issue?
Either way, let's assume it was a misunderstanding because aside from the console issue we agree anyways and who cares.

EDIT: I wanted to investigate if you are right about the trend, but gamespot proved to be a sucky resource for looking for games because you have to read a lot of their reviews to get to the point of the physics. So researching games I don't know is a drag on that site. It's pretty much just good for looking up titles you do know. Suffice to say, there are loads of realistic (e.g. Forza) and realistic driving (e.g. PGR2 - clearly not a sim, but the driving model is realistic enough to encourage sim-like behavior) on the consoles so in sheer quantity, if there is a trend at all, it's really small. What has to be said though, is that there are no simulations on the console that surprised me as much as Live For Speed in their realism, so when it comes to the tip of the iceberg in realistic racers the pc is still in the lead as it seems.

 

[Grobut]

Ok then.
I'm still wondering, why didn't you make the distinction of arcade vs. realistic but had to drag "mainly the console ports" and "designed for gamepads" into this?

Well because it's true, i do see more arcade/casual titles among the Console ports, especially thease days, if we go back to about 2002 and earlier, then the PC was still going strong and had many exclusive titles, but thease days, and definately with racing games, they are mostly multi-platform (which i just call "console port" because it's easier), the few racing games made PC exlusive thease days are mostly sims, or atleast fairly realistic.

Mind you though, that part of my post was tiny and insignificant aside, it was never ment to be a stab at anything or anyone, just a quick note of an observation i have made.

And why didn't you just agree when I first pointed out that it's not consolization that is to blame but kept on arguing when we agreed on everything but the "games have to be designed for gamepads and then wheels don't work well in them" issue?
Either way, let's assume it was a misunderstanding because aside from the console issue we agree anyways and who cares.

Because i coulden't see how your argument pertained to my argument, we where talking about different things by the looks of it.

Regarding your idea of that trend though, I don't think it's as pronounced as you think it is, but I'm not sure. I'm not a games expert but when I look through the downloadable demos on xbox live I see a lot of racing games so it could be interesting to make a little comparison.
If we want to make a comparison I don't think we have to go for only all-out sims, but we can also include all the racing games that are realistic enough to require you to race in a similar fashion as if it was a sim. E.g. NFS Porsche is clearly not a simulation, but it's meant to be driven like a realistic racer and the gameplay would fit a steering wheel well.
Also I'd say we limit us to games from 2001 and up, partly because that's when consoles started to somewhat catch up with the pc and partly because I honestly don't know any realistic racing game on N64 and friends.
Also, lets not forget that the pc has more titles in general - including arcade racers! Simply because it's easier to develop for and release on the pc. Games like "Europa Raser" would never see the light of day on a console, for example.
So, would you be interested in listing a few pc titles that fit the above criteria and I'll dig around gamespot and post some console titles or should I rather carry out this investigation in private?

NFSU is what i call "middle of the road", it's neither Arcade nor a Sim, and like most of thease games, it'll work ok with most input devices.
That has never been what i was talking about though, i'm talking about the extremes, the Arcade and the Sims, because it's thease games where there usually is an important difference in what you play it with, ergo, my argument was "games like thease are the reason i own both kinds of input devices".

So if you want to compare titles, within the spirit of what i was arguing, then it's only arcade versus sim that you should be comparing (as only thease show the differences i was talking about, there's not much point comparing titles where the issue doesen't exist).
And i think you'll quickly find the PC has more sims, and thease days, the Consoles definately have more Arcade (the PC used to have a lot of Arcade racers, but thease days they all seem to have migrated to MultiPlatform-Development, or just plain get ported to the PC later, if at all).

 

[Murphy]

That has never been what i was talking about though, i'm talking about the extremes, the Arcade and the Sims

See, I was talking about consolization because I thought you took a stab at this and knowing your stance on console ports I kind of had you filed in a certain category and maybe I projected my opinion of you into what you said. My mistake.

Turns out you didn't actually mean 'console ports' but the more accurate 'multiplatform title' and actually not even that but 'arcade racer' and just called it 'console port' because many arcade racers are made multiplatform these days.
I think you'll excuse me taking the leap from 'console ports' towards my understanding of your point rather than making the leap from 'console ports' to 'multiplatform' over 'general trend in multiplatform games' to finally arrive at 'arcade racers'.

Especially after I immediately brought up the point that it's not about them being console ports but about the kind of game (arcade racers vs. realistic; rally vs. not rally) but you didn't say that's what you meant but argued games had their physics adjusted for the gamepad.

My understanding was you were talking about realistic games that were being dumbed down for gamepads, while you were apparently talking about arcade games being arcade games.

Now I can safely say I fully agree with your point.

Regarding your trend: There is a rather huge quantity of realistic console racers, but they top off at a certain point and the pc extends a bit beyond that in terms of realism. Meaning the top-most realistic games are pc only but slightly below that on the realism scale it pretty much evens out nowadays.

 

[SheepDip]

You know guys...(Grobut/Murph)

a duel would have been quicker...and easier on my eyes

 

[Murphy]

Well, I misunderstood his point and took offense where no offense was intended and then we argued about two different things, which is why it went on for so long. Had we dueled in the early morning with a pair of flintlock pistols, Grobut would have shot me through the fog and my monocle for no reason.

 

[SheepDip]

Damn it. I want a G25 now! Stupid having-to-wait-for-payday (T minus 14 days!)