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Flamethrowers

I don't know if it's a normal feature or just a bug but in the RO mod, Darkest Hour I managed to shoot and kill a tank driver through his vision slit?? I can't remember what tank it was, it may have been a stug...

I don't think that is a bug. I also sniped a driver in a russian armoured small car (the one with the MG turret on top) through the vision slit. Sure a lucky shot, but I truly believe it was a genuine headshot.
 
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God damn it I thought this thread was dead.

All the German Pioneer battalion from every Infantry Division in the 6th army was sent into the centre of Stalingrad to lead the way. Each Pioneer battalion had 20 flame throwers. Check for yourself how many Pioneer / engineer batalions there were in each division of the 6th army: Here. That's a lot of flame throwers which were all sent into the city!

Russian flame throwers:
001.jpg

3942738609_0c79e31e73.jpg

battle-stalingrad-ww2-second-world-war-two-russian-eastern-front-unseen-pictures-photos-images.jpeg-soldiers-fighting-soviet-soldiers-fierce-fighting-flame-thrower.jpeg

4471534001_815f51a771.jpg


German flame throwers:
Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-083-3371-11,_Stalingrad,_Infanterie_mit_Flammenwerfer.jpg

ts

flame.jpg

pd2083817.jpg





ROKS-2/3:

Weight: 23 kg
Capacity: 9 litres (approx)
Range: 35 to 45 m
Duration: 6 - 8 seconds (approx)

ROKS2.jpg



Flammenwerfer 41/42:

Weight: 22 kg (41) 18.5 kg (42)
Capacity: ? litres
Range: 25 to 35 m
Duration: 10 seconds (approx)

flamen2-vi.jpg



YouTube - Stalingrad : Battle In The Sewer (HQ)


They need to implement them properly, but it would be madness to leave them totally out. Some of you have been burned (HOHOHO) by arcade style flame throwers previously, no one wants to see that crap here. I guess the issue for them is if they can model fire realistically within the unreal 3 engine... The engine seems up to the challenge:

YouTube - Oil Field Scene WIP(4) Unreal Engine 3 HD version
 
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Yes. I know. But read the thread. I am well aware flamethrowers existed and how they were used.

According to those figures you've posted 2% of soldiers in a pioneer batallion would have had a flamethrower.

So, HOES has a 32 man squad which is around 4% of battalion strength - so for each 32 man squad you have how many flamethrower troops? 0.08%?

You'd likely see 1 flamethrower accross an entire 30 minute (or however long timed rounds will last) map. And considering the amount of work that is required to implement fire damage realistically it is too much effort for too little gain.

So.

Frequency of occurance != Work required to implement realistically.
 
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Yes. I know. But read the thread. I am well aware flamethrowers existed and how they were used.

According to those figures you've posted 2% of soldiers in a pioneer batallion would have had a flamethrower.

So, HOES has a 32 man squad which is around 4% of battalion strength - so for each 32 man squad you have how many flamethrower troops? 0.08%?

You'd likely see 1 flamethrower accross an entire 30 minute (or however long timed rounds will last) map. And considering the amount of work that is required to implement fire damage realistically it is too much effort for too little gain.

So.

Frequency of occurance != Work required to implement realistically.


As I hope you're well aware, that's a gross oversimplification of the situation... By your reasoning MGs should also be removed from the game, because taking into account the ratio of MGs to soldiers within a division (similar to that of flame throwers, 30 compared to 20 per 800 men) the freequency is not high enough to grant them a place on the battlefield... :confused::rolleyes:

The high frequency of pioneers to regular soldiers meant they were in a primary front role duty within Stalingrad -- Which meant that during attacks in the city, you're more likely to see them.

Equipment such as LMGs and Flamethrowers were in constant use as needed on assaults, which is what the maps in RO represent -- Assaults and skirmishes. This equipment would have been up front in the thick of the fight where it's needed. There were a similar amount of LMGs as there were flamethrowers issued to pioneer battalions, because they were both important for attacking defensive positions.

Not to mention that not every soldier within a division from that head count will be on the front in the first wave... Hence your contention is heavily flawed and irrelivent.

It's not like they'd be on every map, just like in RO:Ost, the mapper would decide what unit equipment is available.
 
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Even if 1 out of 32 players on a team gets to play as a flamethrower class for the duration of a map - that is too many troops for a historical depiction, and it would end up being a spammy annoying class - if you limit the number of "spawns" a flamethrower troop gets then you have to weigh up the amount of work required to get the thing in there in the first place.

Accurately modelling fire damage is extremely complex, and to do so to the level of detail that this community looks for (fire damage to surroundings, fire's that don't just "timeout", suffocation "damage") would require an absurd amount of work for what would basically be around 60 seconds of actual in game firing of the weapon.

Really, if a map was depicting a standard infantry group and a pioneer group then there's perfect justification for them being there...especially if the map is an assault of a fortified position...but I really don't think it's worth it.
 
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Are you seriously stating that Stalingrad is not the perfect place for a flame thrower, extremity? Because history begs to differ. And again sheepdip, your argument applies to MGs too. I agree it's a lot more work though, but that they added even more detail on tanks before this would be amusing.
 
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Are you seriously stating that Stalingrad is not the perfect place for a flame thrower, extremity?

I never said Stalingrad was or was not suitable for flame throwers.

I'm just stating that I don't see a point in flame throwers, either they'll be a pain or be picked off by snipers.

Also your points and references may be valid and "historically accurate" but I just get shivers down my spine when you give the flames of hell inside a gas tank attached to a human player.
 
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I never said Stalingrad was or was not suitable for flame throwers.

I'm just stating that I don't see a point in flame throwers, either they'll be a pain or be picked off by snipers.

Also your points and references may be valid and "historically accurate" but I just get shivers down my spine when you give the flames of hell inside a gas tank attached to a human player.

They're a tool to be utilized by Engineers though, they'd use that or satchel charges. And players would soon find the limitations of a flamethrower: Bullet magnet, walking slower, limited ammunition, not suitable for 'lone wolves'.

Yes at first you'd have lots of people trying to chose it because, "LOL FIRE HAHA" and then attempting to run around like a 'Pyro' off of TF2 or something and dieing a lot. But I think very soon the novelty would wear off and they'd be used tactically as they would in real life.

Because it's simply not a weapon to run around spraying fools with. It's for clearing out tough tactical choke points, like bunkers or heavily camped areas that grenades can't handle (corners in basements etc). It's for causing suppression and fear, blinding MG nests or hindering tanks and destroying smaller vehicles. The games 2 main scenario options are based around attacking and holding objectives and clearing out defensive spots, which is where it shines:


  • "Territory Mode: This is the original gamemode that made Red Orchestra famous. Attack, Hold and Defend objectives within the set timelimit, or until one side runs out of reinforments. (Source:IGN Preview)
  • Countdown Mode: Countdown mode is a single life gametype that is governed by a short countdown timer. Players will have to attack or defend a series of objectives, but with only one life per objective. If the attackers capture the objective, all players respawn and move to the next objective. If they do not capture the objective before the timer expires, they lose. Maps will have "key objectives" which when taken will allow the attacking team a single respawn on a later failed capture. (Source:Voodoo Extreme Interview)"


It's a heavily team based weapon and very soon people will learn that going John Rambo with it isn't useful when they keep dieing and running out of ammo after screaming "BANZAIIIII" while charging around manically flaming. And far from then being abandoned as being 'useless', the tactical players will pick it up and go, "hey, this is quite handy in aiding assaults".

They'll need support, just like regular engineers, LMGers, AT soldiers and other specialist classes do -- And their tool will be handy just like those classes too. Of course they'll be bullet magnets for snipers as well; just like Officers, MGers etc are now. :)

Regarding 'workload : playability', sure it's a lot to do, but I personally feel the playability of it will be worth it. Just like making such in depth tanks is worth it. There's some very good particle system scripters who could handle realistic fire beyond a simple timer on flames disappearing.

For the unit implementation you've got 1 week planing and concept sketching. 2 weeks modelling both the character (of which a previous mesh can be edited) and the weapons assets including detailing in ZBrush. 2 more weeks for texturing, creating texture maps and rigging. 2 weeks for animation in conjunction with particle scripting. Testing 1 week, 2 more weeks of tweaking values. It's certainly doable.

When flamethrowers are mentioned regarding WW2, the first 2 places you think of are Stalingrad and clearing the caves in the Pacific.
 
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Its a nice thing to add in later with a content patch, only usable on certain maps etc.

I cant be really bothered about this weapon to be honost, looking at the difficulty of implementing it.

Its nice to see though

YouTube - Call of duty 5 Flamethrower rampage

Does the player in COD 5 look like this? :D:eek: Like that dude from the beginning of lethal weapon 4 except with a seemingly infinite fuel tank...

cod5m.jpg
 
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they're a tool to be utilized by engineers though, they'd use that or satchel charges. And players would soon find the limitations of a flamethrower: bullet magnet, walking slower, limited ammunition, not suitable for 'lone wolves'.

yes at first you'd have lots of people trying to chose it because, "lol fire haha" and then attempting to run around like a 'pyro' off of tf2 or something and dieing a lot. But i think very soon the novelty would wear off and they'd be used tactically as they would in real life.

Because it's simply not a weapon to run around spraying fools with. It's for clearing out tough tactical choke points, like bunkers or heavily camped areas that grenades can't handle (corners in basements etc). It's for causing suppression and fear, blinding mg nests or hindering tanks and destroying smaller vehicles. The games 2 main scenario options are based around attacking and holding objectives and clearing out defensive spots, which is where it shines:


  • "territory mode: this is the original gamemode that made red orchestra famous. Attack, hold and defend objectives within the set timelimit, or until one side runs out of reinforments. (source:ign preview)
  • countdown mode: countdown mode is a single life gametype that is governed by a short countdown timer. Players will have to attack or defend a series of objectives, but with only one life per objective. If the attackers capture the objective, all players respawn and move to the next objective. If they do not capture the objective before the timer expires, they lose. Maps will have "key objectives" which when taken will allow the attacking team a single respawn on a later failed capture. (source:voodoo extreme interview)"


it's a heavily team based weapon and very soon people will learn that going john rambo with it isn't useful when they keep dieing and running out of ammo after screaming "banzaiiiii" while charging around manically flaming. And far from then being abandoned as being 'useless', the tactical players will pick it up and go, "hey, this is quite handy in aiding assaults".

They'll need support, just like regular engineers, lmgers, at soldiers and other specialist classes do -- and their tool will be handy just like those classes too. Of course they'll be bullet magnets for snipers as well; just like officers, mgers etc are now. :)

regarding 'workload : Playability', sure it's a lot to do, but i personally feel the playability of it will be worth it. Just like making such in depth tanks is worth it. There's some very good particle system scripters who could handle realistic fire beyond a simple timer on flames disappearing.

For the unit implementation you've got 1 week planing and concept sketching. 2 weeks modelling both the character (of which a previous mesh can be edited) and the weapons assets including detailing in zbrush. 2 more weeks for texturing, creating texture maps and rigging. 2 weeks for animation in conjunction with particle scripting. Testing 1 week, 2 more weeks of tweaking values. It's certainly doable.

when flamethrowers are mentioned regarding ww2, the first 2 places you think of are stalingrad and clearing the caves in the pacific.


+1 :d
 
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They're a tool to be utilized by Engineers though, they'd use that or satchel charges. And players would soon find the limitations of a flamethrower: Bullet magnet, walking slower, limited ammunition, not suitable for 'lone wolves'.

Yes at first you'd have lots of people trying to chose it because, "LOL FIRE HAHA" and then attempting to run around like a 'Pyro' off of TF2 or something and dieing a lot. But I think very soon the novelty would wear off and they'd be used tactically as they would in real life.

Because it's simply not a weapon to run around spraying fools with. It's for clearing out tough tactical choke points, like bunkers or heavily camped areas that grenades can't handle (corners in basements etc). It's for causing suppression and fear, blinding MG nests or hindering tanks and destroying smaller vehicles. The games 2 main scenario options are based around attacking and holding objectives and clearing out defensive spots, which is where it shines:


  • "Territory Mode: This is the original gamemode that made Red Orchestra famous. Attack, Hold and Defend objectives within the set timelimit, or until one side runs out of reinforments. (Source:IGN Preview)
  • Countdown Mode: Countdown mode is a single life gametype that is governed by a short countdown timer. Players will have to attack or defend a series of objectives, but with only one life per objective. If the attackers capture the objective, all players respawn and move to the next objective. If they do not capture the objective before the timer expires, they lose. Maps will have "key objectives" which when taken will allow the attacking team a single respawn on a later failed capture. (Source:Voodoo Extreme Interview)"


It's a heavily team based weapon and very soon people will learn that going John Rambo with it isn't useful when they keep dieing and running out of ammo after screaming "BANZAIIIII" while charging around manically flaming. And far from then being abandoned as being 'useless', the tactical players will pick it up and go, "hey, this is quite handy in aiding assaults".

They'll need support, just like regular engineers, LMGers, AT soldiers and other specialist classes do -- And their tool will be handy just like those classes too. Of course they'll be bullet magnets for snipers as well; just like Officers, MGers etc are now. :)

Regarding 'workload : playability', sure it's a lot to do, but I personally feel the playability of it will be worth it. Just like making such in depth tanks is worth it. There's some very good particle system scripters who could handle realistic fire beyond a simple timer on flames disappearing.

For the unit implementation you've got 1 week planing and concept sketching. 2 weeks modelling both the character (of which a previous mesh can be edited) and the weapons assets including detailing in ZBrush. 2 more weeks for texturing, creating texture maps and rigging. 2 weeks for animation in conjunction with particle scripting. Testing 1 week, 2 more weeks of tweaking values. It's certainly doable.

When flamethrowers are mentioned regarding WW2, the first 2 places you think of are Stalingrad and clearing the caves in the Pacific.

You're starting to edge me toward it, but I'd rather die by bullet

Since flamethrowers were used, but in small numbers, it might be a hero unlock to keep the frequency down

Yessssssssssss
 
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