Engineer perk, why and how.

[Fail-o-wisp]

Ah you do have a great point there.

Well personally I dont have too much experience of larger "partys" in Hard and up, even though i easily solo Hard/Suicidal (Short) up to Patty with lvl 2 Demo/SS/Sharpshooter, but since the zeds get a boost for each player that joins it will become harder. They will get more HP, Speed and damage, and in a 6man HoE i can really see the need for a person that can put up a temporary stop where SS cant, thus the barricades.
Also, even though the SS is more than capable of getting a door up and properly stopping, that door will fall withing seconds if there was a larger group out there, thus the reinforcements.
Also, when a group gets cornered with nowhere to run and just an impending doom awaiting them the manable turrets could prove to be lifesavers.

Ofcourse, as I've said, these are not supposed to be gamebreakers, but simply add another viable tactic to the game.

That's the fun part. Also, all it would need to mop all those specimens up is a well-placed grenade from a Demolitions or just a Firebug. The frantic "omigosh-they're-coming-runnnnnn!" factor is one of the best parts of the game.

So, that's shooting down your barricades idea.

For the turret idea. Okay, I get that you have to man it yourself but to balance it against dumb AI would be pretty hard. Maybe if it weighs 9 blocks, takes almost as much as an AA-12, it'll overheat if you spam with it, you have to buy ammo for it(and it better be expensive) and not have too much health. Anything other than that and I'd consider it gamebreaking.

SMGs. Sure, I see no problem with that.

-SMGs aren't really ideal as a main weapon.

Tommy guns are considered SMGs and were used by British Commandos in World War 2.

Super door-welding. There's pretty much no need to have a door reinforcer, it would sort of invade the Support's territory.

As for the armor, I don't see how it can be added without breaking the game. Berserkers and Medics with armor are already as hard to kill as it is.

So while your ideas are pretty well thought out and I give you my salutations for that, there's not enough material to add a new perk. Maybe give the sentry idea to the Support Specialist but other than that, I can't see this idea being added into the game.

 

[Haineko]

That's the fun part. Also, all it would need to mop all those specimens up is a well-placed grenade from a Demolitions or just a Firebug. The frantic "omigosh-they're-coming-runnnnnn!" factor is one of the best parts of the game.

So, that's shooting down your barricades idea.

For the turret idea. Okay, I get that you have to man it yourself but to balance it against dumb AI would be pretty hard. Maybe if it weighs 9 blocks, takes almost as much as an AA-12, it'll overheat if you spam with it, you have to buy ammo for it(and it better be expensive) and not have too much health. Anything other than that and I'd consider it gamebreaking.

Turret would be manable, heavy as hell itself and fragile and ammo would be limited as well as expensive. Thats more or less what i had thought of. My main idea was basically having the SMG wep + one turret and woops your loaded full.

SMGs. Sure, I see no problem with that.

Tommy guns are considered SMGs and were used by British Commandos in World War 2.

Super door-welding. There's pretty much no need to have a door reinforcer, it would sort of invade the Support's territory.

As for the armor, I don't see how it can be added without breaking the game. Berserkers and Medics with armor are already as hard to kill as it is.

So while your ideas are pretty well thought out and I give you my salutations for that, there's not enough material to add a new perk. Maybe give the sentry idea to the Support Specialist but other than that, I can't see this idea being added into the game.

Someone posted earlier that if repairing, perhaps only to 50% effectivnerss as well as the armor "bleeding" away over time. Also adding a onetime use/player.
How bout that?

 

[Surkov]

When we talk about barricades what do we mean? Like sandbag walls you can shoot over? That's too much, and otherwise it would be just like welding a door.
As for turrets, I can see some use to filling in gaps so to speak, but there seems to be hundreds of better ways to do that. A stationary turret with heavily limited ammo pales in comparison to more mobile weapons that could do the job better, and armoring a turret would, again be too much. (I will admit though I wouldn't mind seeing a custom map or two with one.)
Armor repairing on the fly would break the current balance between Medic and Berserker perks and would cause a need to rebalance both. If you did however make it a one time use per player, bleed it off, and limited it (I would say less than 50%) then I would find it acceptable.
Like I said before I don't think any of this warrant's a new perk, but I would say the support specialist could be expanded upon but, if we were to do that I would want a little bit added to each other perk to balance it out a bit.

And for the record SMG's are probably THE ideal weapon for run n' gun kind of play.

 

[sverek]

Oh, this thread still alive?

Surkov nicely summirized problems though.

This suggestions sounds like, players will be able to build their own forts on map, with barricades and turrets, so they will camp in inside of it and won't bother to move their asses.

But this not gonna happen anyway, so I'd suggest to abandon this thread before it became flame war : )

 

[Fail-o-wisp]

Turret would be manable, heavy as hell itself and fragile and ammo would be limited as well as expensive. Thats more or less what i had thought of. My main idea was basically having the SMG wep + one turret and woops your loaded full.

Ah, that's much better then.

Someone posted earlier that if repairing, perhaps only to 50% effectivnerss as well as the armor "bleeding" away over time. Also adding a onetime use/player.

Yes, that sounds much better.


How bout that?

While I still can't say I'm liking this idea too much, it's at least playable and somewhat balanced. Waaaaaaaaaaaay better than all the other Engineer threads I've seen.

 

[Haineko]

I will give all of you some responses once i get a to a computer. Writing on an iPhone atm.

 

[Haineko]

When we talk about barricades what do we mean? Like sandbag walls you can shoot over? That's too much, and otherwise it would be just like welding a door.
As for turrets, I can see some use to filling in gaps so to speak, but there seems to be hundreds of better ways to do that. A stationary turret with heavily limited ammo pales in comparison to more mobile weapons that could do the job better, and armoring a turret would, again be too much. (I will admit though I wouldn't mind seeing a custom map or two with one.)
Armor repairing on the fly would break the current balance between Medic and Berserker perks and would cause a need to rebalance both. If you did however make it a one time use per player, bleed it off, and limited it (I would say less than 50%) then I would find it acceptable.
Like I said before I don't think any of this warrant's a new perk, but I would say the support specialist could be expanded upon but, if we were to do that I would want a little bit added to each other perk to balance it out a bit.

And for the record SMG's are probably THE ideal weapon for run n' gun kind of play.

Armor repair: Would be once per wave thing, and a full repair would still only be worth ca 50% of the original or so for balancing.

Barricades: I was thinking (texture wise) looking like a roadbllock or so that might change depending on the surroundings to fit the rest of the map, but with some 50 - 75% health compared to a welded door just to keep the zombies away from the team while they try to run, or just placed on the ground so that the zombies have to walk around it, thus disspersing them/funneling them into a tighter group and easier to kill with nades or shotgun.

Turrets: I see your point of them being "useless" compared to a player with a similair weapon in hand, but as i said these were ment as a separate weaponry to those that the players have and perhaps used to conserve ammunition for them/to lift the preassure of them.
Also would be manable and not automatics.

While I still can't say I'm liking this idea too much, it's at least playable and somewhat balanced. Waaaaaaaaaaaay better than all the other Engineer threads I've seen.

Well I appreciate the fact that you're not flaming me over this
And it wouldn't have been as balanced if there weren't people who questioned my ideas and told me where I could improve

 

[Surkov]

Barricades: I was thinking (texture wise) looking like a roadbllock or so that might change depending on the surroundings to fit the rest of the map, but with some 50 - 75% health compared to a welded door just to keep the zombies away from the team while they try to run, or just placed on the ground so that the zombies have to walk around it, thus disspersing them/funneling them into a tighter group and easier to kill with nades or shotgun.

Support already does this well. I'm assuming you mean to make this more of a deployable thing, unfortunately that means that you'd have to be able to shoot/throw nades over it, and that's seems just a tad op compared to welded doors. Height is also an issue in this because if you have it too low then, as I said, people can shoot over it, specimens will be able to climb it anyway, etc etc.
The biggest issue with it though is that by allowing people to drop a barrier wherever they want you remove a factor that limit's door welding, room space. In a map like west london you could create a closed space the size of a street, this is an issue because if you make zeds walk two to three times the distance they normally would have to with a welded door, alot more will be thinned out than if they had entered a much smaller room.

Turrets: I see your point of them being "useless" compared to a player with a similair weapon in hand, but as i said these were ment as a separate weaponry to those that the players have and perhaps used to conserve ammunition for them/to lift the preassure of them.
Also would be manable and not automatics.

Now I see where your going with this, and I think the backing Idea is great. Now I don't want to hijack your thread but I suggested something I thought would have a similar effect once. http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=44864
This is an example of what I mean when I say that there are better ways to do this. With sufficient balancing your idea might beat out mine, In fact I think the base concept competes rather well as is, but I still support more mobile means of doing this such as my own idea because,
(a. Having anybody being able to sit in and man a turret effectively breaks the effectiveness of different perks. If instead one perk gains a large versatility with different benefits to using it's own now modified type of weapon support, then that perk can support the specialists by operating on different, but similar means without creating a preference to simply changing to that class. I want to create perks that are more distinct from each other but can still horizontally integrate weaponry from other perks. So I'm not particularly a big fan of the current +X% damage/reload speed etc framework.
(b. Having a static turret DOES seem to ruin the fun of moving around. What's the point of having a nice map if you just sit in one spot?

I appreciate the fact that you stick to your gun's and explain your concepts when needed. If anyone tries to flame you then tell em to shove off because they are just going to limit your thought and creativity.
And as a side note, these are all well and good concept's but they probably aren't as "here and now" as people would like, so be prepared for the impractical excuse.

 

[Fail-o-wisp]

Support already does this well. I'm assuming you mean to make this more of a deployable thing, unfortunately that means that you'd have to be able to shoot/throw nades over it, and that's seems just a tad op compared to welded doors. Height is also an issue in this because if you have it too low then, as I said, people can shoot over it, specimens will be able to climb it anyway, etc etc.
The biggest issue with it though is that by allowing people to drop a barrier wherever they want you remove a factor that limit's door welding, room space. In a map like west london you could create a closed space the size of a street, this is an issue because if you make zeds walk two to three times the distance they normally would have to with a welded door, alot more will be thinned out than if they had entered a much smaller room.


Now I see where your going with this, and I think the backing Idea is great. Now I don't want to hijack your thread but I suggested something I thought would have a similar effect once. [url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=44864[/URL]
This is an example of what I mean when I say that there are better ways to do this. With sufficient balancing your idea might beat out mine, In fact I think the base concept competes rather well as is, but I still support more mobile means of doing this such as my own idea because,
(a. Having anybody being able to sit in and man a turret effectively breaks the effectiveness of different perks. If instead one perk gains a large versatility with different benefits to using it's own now modified type of weapon support, then that perk can support the specialists by operating on different, but similar means without creating a preference to simply changing to that class. I want to create perks that are more distinct from each other but can still horizontally integrate weaponry from other perks. So I'm not particularly a big fan of the current +X% damage/reload speed etc framework.
(b. Having a static turret DOES seem to ruin the fun of moving around. What's the point of having a nice map if you just sit in one spot?

I appreciate the fact that you stick to your gun's and explain your concepts when needed. If anyone tries to flame you then tell em to shove off because they are just going to limit your thought and creativity.
And as a side note, these are all well and good concept's but they probably aren't as "here and now" as people would like, so be prepared for the impractical excuse.

Speaking of which, how much damage would the turret do and can you remove yourself from the turret seat(like in L4D for example)?

 

[Haineko]

Speaking of which, how much damage would the turret do and can you remove yourself from the turret seat(like in L4D for example)?

The MG turret for example, i would prefer an M249 SAW, would deal damage equal to that of the Bullpup, but at a much higher RoF.

The AA 40mm that i would have wanted might be a little overpowered if implemented on basis of reality, but im thinking a 2 rounds per second or so, to show that it is a slow, heavy gun, with a 6 round magazine that needs to be exchanged after its empty, with one or two extra mags at "the side" so to speak.

Damage, somewhat close to the LAW, tad weaker, but with higher penetration and RoF
Reason for not having higher damage is that i dont want this to be a Fleshpound raper, but rather balanced around killing it, but not doing so in a faster manner than weapons that already exist but instead matching it around somewhat the same speed.

And yes, you would be able to step down from the turret. You would not be bound to it.

 

[Haineko]

Support already does this well. I'm assuming you mean to make this more of a deployable thing, unfortunately that means that you'd have to be able to shoot/throw nades over it, and that's seems just a tad op compared to welded doors. Height is also an issue in this because if you have it too low then, as I said, people can shoot over it, specimens will be able to climb it anyway, etc etc.
The biggest issue with it though is that by allowing people to drop a barrier wherever they want you remove a factor that limit's door welding, room space. In a map like west london you could create a closed space the size of a street, this is an issue because if you make zeds walk two to three times the distance they normally would have to with a welded door, alot more will be thinned out than if they had entered a much smaller room.

When you put it like that i can really see the problem, and i think i might have an idea here.. Implementing a limit of one per person, or per team, so that it isnt abused, as well as placed strategically in order to lead the Zeds away and force them to chose another way. Of course it will be destructible and shooting and nading over it will have to be possible as making it any other way would be rather wierd.

Now I see where your going with this, and I think the backing Idea is great. Now I don't want to hijack your thread but I suggested something I thought would have a similar effect once. [url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=44864[/URL]
This is an example of what I mean when I say that there are better ways to do this. With sufficient balancing your idea might beat out mine, In fact I think the base concept competes rather well as is, but I still support more mobile means of doing this such as my own idea because,
(a. Having anybody being able to sit in and man a turret effectively breaks the effectiveness of different perks. If instead one perk gains a large versatility with different benefits to using it's own now modified type of weapon support, then that perk can support the specialists by operating on different, but similar means without creating a preference to simply changing to that class. I want to create perks that are more distinct from each other but can still horizontally integrate weaponry from other perks. So I'm not particularly a big fan of the current +X% damage/reload speed etc framework.
(b. Having a static turret DOES seem to ruin the fun of moving around. What's the point of having a nice map if you just sit in one spot?

Hmm well, as you said earlier, if the "perk" doesnt make it into the game, then maybe we could get just the turrets, maybe as a map creation feature.
Though I would prefer that the perk made it in game now that so many has helped me with it.
And almost all comments ahve helped wether that was their intention or not.

I appreciate the fact that you stick to your gun's and explain your concepts when needed. If anyone tries to flame you then tell em to shove off because they are just going to limit your thought and creativity.

I saw the extreme flaming in your thread and i feel sorry for you, and I have seen these things before.
But I have decided to see this through until the thread hits dead end and disapears into the dark depths of forgotten threads

And as a side note, these are all well and good concept's but they probably aren't as "here and now" as people would like, so be prepared for the impractical excuse.

"The impractical exscuse"?
And well.. Im working on these things and i will for as long as i can until i have either perfected it or it dies out completly.

 

[Surkov]

When you put it like that i can really see the problem, and i think i might have an idea here.. Implementing a limit of one per person, or per team, so that it isnt abused, as well as placed strategically in order to lead the Zeds away and force them to chose another way. Of course it will be destructible and shooting and nading over it will have to be possible as making it any other way would be rather wierd.

Limiting resources means you have to tweak the effectiveness of said resources. Having only one barricade available would mean it would have to be very strong to be of any use, coupled with the ability to shoot over it an entire group of specimens could be dead before they are even a remote threat.
As for the redirection of zed's I'd like to refer you to my post in this thread: http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=50135&page=2[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=50135&page=2[/URL]

Hmm well, as you said earlier, if the "perk" doesnt make it into the game, then maybe we could get just the turrets, maybe as a map creation feature.

I think it would be a fun thing to play around with. If someone does make one and it's successful then that may very well pave the way for adding it to a perk, or at least a more common map feature.
In a way the map specific turrets make sense, once one is exhausted of ammo, then you can no longer camp in that one spot.

I saw the extreme flaming in your thread and i feel sorry for you, and I have seen these things before.
But I have decided to see this through until the thread hits dead end and disapears into the dark depths of forgotten threads

You don't need to feel sorry, just lend a hand to people trying to hold their own against it when you see it happen.

"The impractical exscuse"?
And well.. Im working on these things and i will for as long as i can until i have either perfected it or it dies out completly.

You'll recognize it when you see it.
And I'm glad to hear that.

 

[Wannas]

Quite a few maps do already have turrets (can't quote an example but I'm sure someone around here can). Off the top of my head Obsidian Beta and Road to Perdition (or something like them) have them. They have unlimited ammo but a heat bar, spinning up from a very slow firerate to a high firerate at higher heat and about Handcannon damage.

I don't want to put down all these creative ideas, but as you can see yourself there would need to be so many layers of red tape 'in the name of balance' restricting any of such a perk's features. Barricades and turrets can tunnel Zeds with their simple AI so effectively that you don't have to move an inch for the whole wave. Think Arcade Gas Station, camping in the stairs...

 

[Nanostrike]

This suggestions sounds like, players will be able to build their own forts on map, with barricades and turrets, so they will camp in inside of it and won't bother to move their asses.

But this not gonna happen anyway, so I'd suggest to abandon this thread before it became flame war : )

Actually, now that I think about it...the Engineer perk would turn into the "Mechanic" class of Defense Alliance 2.

It had cool-looking turrets and all that, but to not be able to constantly destroy every specimen in sight with infinite-ammo turrets, they had to be so weak vs the specimens that it was a joke.

Not to mention that Specimen AI goes really, really wonky when they're confronted not only by half a dozen players...but also by half a dozen turrets, all opening up on 'em.

And beyond that, all Defense Alliance Specimen Survival maps pretty much had to be outside because inside there was:

1) Not enough room for the turrets AND the players inside and
2) A long hallway with turrets constantly firing down it made the game pretty pointless.

Basically, the perk just doesn't work for a ton of reasons.


I think we're more likely to see a "Competitive Eater" perk that's all about eating specimens and uses different Forks and Spoons as perk weapons than we are to see the Engineer perk made by TWI.

 

[Haineko]

Actually, now that I think about it...the Engineer perk would turn into the "Mechanic" class of Defense Alliance 2.

It had cool-looking turrets and all that, but to not be able to constantly destroy every specimen in sight with infinite-ammo turrets, they had to be so weak vs the specimens that it was a joke.

Not to mention that Specimen AI goes really, really wonky when they're confronted not only by half a dozen players...but also by half a dozen turrets, all opening up on 'em.

And beyond that, all Defense Alliance Specimen Survival maps pretty much had to be outside because inside there was:

1) Not enough room for the turrets AND the players inside and
2) A long hallway with turrets constantly firing down it made the game pretty pointless.

Basically, the perk just doesn't work for a ton of reasons.


I think we're more likely to see a "Competitive Eater" perk that's all about eating specimens and uses different Forks and Spoons as perk weapons than we are to see the Engineer perk made by TWI.

As i have already stated... THE TURRETS WILL BE MANABLE, NOT AUTOMATIC.

L2READ

 

[Haineko]

Quite a few maps do already have turrets (can't quote an example but I'm sure someone around here can). Off the top of my head Obsidian Beta and Road to Perdition (or something like them) have them. They have unlimited ammo but a heat bar, spinning up from a very slow firerate to a high firerate at higher heat and about Handcannon damage.

I don't want to put down all these creative ideas, but as you can see yourself there would need to be so many layers of red tape 'in the name of balance' restricting any of such a perk's features. Barricades and turrets can tunnel Zeds with their simple AI so effectively that you don't have to move an inch for the whole wave. Think Arcade Gas Station, camping in the stairs...

I have heard of none of thse maps... I still only have the basic ones.

Also, apparently you have never gone above normal difficulty. Have you ever played hard you know that a grenade will automatically clear a space of zeds as they avoid it. A similair effect could be added for the Barricades so that as soon as it is 'dropped' (placed and welded into health) so that they imediatly try to find a new way around it.

 

[Lucidius134]

Frankly, if it's a barricade waste high or some such, wouldn't the zeds just _jump_ over it like they do with many other obsticles?

As for the turret thing, I don't know where the confusion come from of Turrets being automated come from, OP was pretty clear. People just see Engineer and Turret and think TF2 I guess?

A better term would probably be MG nes, deployable weapon? I don't know.

As for armro repair, why not just make the welding tool repair like .1 armor or .x% armor? It'de need to be really really small, even if it is a perk specific thing.

SMG's, they would be pretty ideal in some cases, I don't know why people are shooting down the idea.

As a down side you could make sure it's a 9x19 SMG and make it use your 9mm's ammo cache? I dunno.

 

[Wannas]

Also, apparently you have never gone above normal difficulty. Have you ever played hard you know that a grenade will automatically clear a space of zeds as they avoid it. A similair effect could be added for the Barricades so that as soon as it is 'dropped' (placed and welded into health) so that they imediatly try to find a new way around it.

Even if I did only play normal I'd know what grenades do. You can completely stop an enraged FP from attacking if you nade correctly in a narrow hallway. The problem is that a grenade only lasts a few seconds. Using this AI a barricade which blocks off an entire path will cause the Zeds to just stand there unless they can walk past it. And honestly who would block off half a hallway anyway?

Regardless, my point still stands that you can barricade all entrances except one and fill that one with turrets. For example, the long hallway to the left of spawn in Bedlam. It's easy enough with 2 entrances; what if there was one and you could turret spam all the way down the corridor?

 

[CandleJack]

Also, apparently you have never gone above normal difficulty. Have you ever played hard you know that a grenade will automatically clear a space of zeds as they avoid it. A similair effect could be added for the Barricades so that as soon as it is 'dropped' (placed and welded into health) so that they imediatly try to find a new way around it.

I can vouch for Wannas.

I've played with him on HoE, he's a pretty good player who doesn't afraid of anything

Also i'm sure that's an ad hominem fallacy you've got going there

 

[Haineko]

Even if I did only play normal I'd know what grenades do. You can completely stop an enraged FP from attacking if you nade correctly in a narrow hallway. The problem is that a grenade only lasts a few seconds. Using this AI a barricade which blocks off an entire path will cause the Zeds to just stand there unless they can walk past it. And honestly who would block off half a hallway anyway?

Well i do see a flaw in my logic here since a lot of times (at least i've noticed so myself) if you place two nades next to each other on a large street you can effectively make them stop in their tracks.
This could possibly be avoided if the Barricade was made in the same way as a welded door so that all the specimens would attack and destroy it, and with a health pool of roughly 50% of a welded door it would die quite quickly.. Also perhaps make it non-repairable.
How'd that work out d'you think?

Regardless, my point still stands that you can barricade all entrances except one and fill that one with turrets. For example, the long hallway to the left of spawn in Bedlam. It's easy enough with 2 entrances; what if there was one and you could turret spam all the way down the corridor?

Perhaps i should exlain what i mean with the turrets a little clearer. Huge amount of weight so that you can only carry an SMG (lightwight) and a turret. Then you'd have to choose. Slow powerfull or fast and weak trash clearer.
Limited ammo for the turret. MG perhaps 250+250x4 ammo, once out you'd have to buy new ammo in "packs" for it at the trader after each wave. Of course for quite humoungus prices, maybe reduced by perk for engineer.
Very low health for the turrets themselves, preferably even less than a barricade, maybe even less than a player.
The 40mm turret could have, as i've written before, a 5 round ammo storage in it, and two or three such bundles to load it with once the first is out.

I can vouch for Wannas.

I've played with him on HoE, he's a pretty good player who doesn't afraid of anything

Also i'm sure that's an ad hominem fallacy you've got going there

Well then granted, he most likely has more experience on there than i do.
The farthest i've come is scond wave on suicidal, alone, with a rank 2 perk.