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Community Opinion: Berserker Overpowered?
- Thread starter Undedd Jester
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As someone who rarely plays 'zerker I can't really give a good opinion on whether the perk is over-powered as such, but I've certainly found myself rather bored on many occasions while a couple of 'zerks solo most of the wave as the rest of us stand around scratching our arses wondering what the fuss is all about. It's not game-breaking but it does tend to put a dampener on things given that the game is entirely based around co-operative play.
This probably belongs in the ideas & suggestions section, but as the key to the zerker's solo ability lies in his speed bonus how about 'modulating' that somehow? For example, if you tied his speed bonus to his health (eg if his health goes down to 50% he only gets 50% of his perk speed bonus) then he would be much more reliant on his team-mates to keep him healed-up without being 'nerfed' as such. Or you could possibly tie his speed bonus directly to med injections, so whenever he gets hit with a dart or syringed he gets max speed bonus for x seconds, then when the timer runs out his speed boost starts to drop until he gets another injection (he could inject himself too, but obviously that takes some time and depletes his med syringe, thus making him more vulnerable).
It's just a vague idea, but the key problem I see is that the Berzerker is supposed to be a kind of one-man killing machine, but if he can do that all the time it poses some significant balance issues, so some kind of mechanic that forces him to retreat to the safety of his team-mates from time to time might be what's needed.
Also as someone mentioned at some point, Stalkers could be made into more of a 'zerker countermeasure, although exactly how I don't know (maybe make them completely invisible to him while cloaked?).
This probably belongs in the ideas & suggestions section, but as the key to the zerker's solo ability lies in his speed bonus how about 'modulating' that somehow? For example, if you tied his speed bonus to his health (eg if his health goes down to 50% he only gets 50% of his perk speed bonus) then he would be much more reliant on his team-mates to keep him healed-up without being 'nerfed' as such. Or you could possibly tie his speed bonus directly to med injections, so whenever he gets hit with a dart or syringed he gets max speed bonus for x seconds, then when the timer runs out his speed boost starts to drop until he gets another injection (he could inject himself too, but obviously that takes some time and depletes his med syringe, thus making him more vulnerable).
It's just a vague idea, but the key problem I see is that the Berzerker is supposed to be a kind of one-man killing machine, but if he can do that all the time it poses some significant balance issues, so some kind of mechanic that forces him to retreat to the safety of his team-mates from time to time might be what's needed.
Also as someone mentioned at some point, Stalkers could be made into more of a 'zerker countermeasure, although exactly how I don't know (maybe make them completely invisible to him while cloaked?).
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Umm, yes they are. All other specimen can be handled by any perk without too much trouble (you can kill all of them with just your 9mm basicly, which i would call quite manageable by all perks). If you are a class who can't handle one or the other of the Scrake/FP "with ease" however, even if you save only those 2 specimens to the end you will still pretty much inevitably die anyway, unless you are REALLY skilled. So they are definitely the deciding factors to wether or not you POTENTIALLY can solo a wave. Doesn't mean that any other specimen can't kill you anyway
I was refering to Zerkers, not the other perks. my bad, should have been more clear.
The only perk that can kill any specimen without too much trouble and with unlimited, cheap and perked weaponry is the Zerker. Support, Demo and Sharpie can kill them all, yes, but they will have limited ammo to do so and trying to kill these 2 specimen alone with any of those perks is way riskier than with the kiting solo-Zerker.
It's riskier in most situations, but not all, but still able to be done. the risk depends on many things, Map, how many remaining zeds, and what type, how close they are to you and the FP, etc.
Zerker needs to have either of these 2 heavy enemies as a nemesis. Fleshpounds are clearly the better choice as the nemesis for the Zerker as Zerkers fills a role as one of the main anti-Scrake perks (Zerker+Sharpie are still currently the best anti-Scrake perks). Requring ammo to kill the FP would make it more similar to the other perks in the way that they have a finite / limited source to kill that specimen. No, it doesn't remove the ability to kill everything by yourself as a Zerker but it would definitely discourage such ramboing behaviour, as cooperating with your team would dispose of them in a much better/safer/quicker way.
See end statement.
Im an ok player, but probably not even close within those top 2%. Yesterday I killed the remaining 200 enemies with a quite crappy group on a 6-man Suicidal server on wave 10/10 on West London without breaking a sweat. I was a Zerker ofc. I would never ever have been able to as easily handle that with any other perk, if it all (due to my lack of skill, not because you can't solo with a different perk). The Zerker IS overpowered (when soloing / ramboing) without any doubt at all, if someone as mediocre as me can handle that so easily!
maybe you are better than you think. Do you think you could have done that on HoE?
The Zerker needs some general MINOR nerf like a bit less resistance (from 40% to 35%?) and/or a speed reduction (from 30% to 20/25% would be good as the Zerker is just crazy fast) on top of making the Fleshpound changes i proposed (to make him a Zerker-nemesis, just like all other perks have a nemesis of either the Scrake or FP).
But making him only be able to carry Melee weapons or REDUCE his total weightlimit? That would just be ridiculously silly as no other perk has such lame and boring restrictions.
Speed and damage reduction will only work if it is severly reduced. I have nothing against a speed reduction of 5% or 10%, or a 5% to 10% damage reduction.
So to set a more distinct goal for the Zerker when both in a group and when soloing:
Good against / Targets to focus on - Trash in melee range + Scrake
Bad against / Targets to avoid - Trash at (medium/long) distance with ranged attacks + Fleshpound
EDIT:
No it's not in the case of the Fleshpound. If one of the problems is that Zerker can solo this specimen (which he shouldn't be able to do the way he does, with his melee weapons, at least not with the swing/miss method), then the problem lies in the specimen, not the perk.
Yes, the Zerker's (and to lesser extent the Medic's) perked speed is also a problem here, but not entirely. If you fix the Fleshie's swing/miss-exploit, you can keep the movement speed bonus (most of it, as i agreed it's a tad too high) without still making him so soloing-overpowered. Cuz he needs SOME speed to function the way as a perk.
Look at it from 2 angles:
1) Nerfing the movement speed too much - Hooray, the FP can't be melee-kited anymore, but now the perk generally sucks to play...
2) Removing the Swing/miss-exploit (+ a minor speed nerf) - Hooray the FP can't be melee-kited anymore, and hooray, the perk is still a fun and functional teamwork-requiring-perk
Which way would you go?
The reason I think it would be better to modify lesser Zeds is because there are more of them. Crawlers are in almost every wave, travel in packs, and come out of nowhere. If they change the FP and SC, then the players who like to Ranbo will still Ranbo, and when the FP or the SC comes along then they will turn and run back to where the team is, and then as soon as it's dead they will go back to thier spot, or they will try to kill it, and end up getting killed leaving the high zed count for the rest of the team to deal with, or as Outofrealman said, they will simply change thier loadout. It needs to be a constant threat, not a threat that only comes in later waves, and in vey limited numbers.
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just make a new zed.
learn how to model, its not hard.
learn how to code, it takes time.
instead of whinging and moaning about the berzerker or sharpshooter or commando or firebug, just make more zeds, get off your butts and start learning how to model and animate and code.
the community has already come together and helped mete out how the perks and zeds work. i really doubt they're going to do it again just because a few people have a problem.
learn how to model, its not hard.
learn how to code, it takes time.
instead of whinging and moaning about the berzerker or sharpshooter or commando or firebug, just make more zeds, get off your butts and start learning how to model and animate and code.
the community has already come together and helped mete out how the perks and zeds work. i really doubt they're going to do it again just because a few people have a problem.
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Solution 1: LAR or M32 is nearly ALWAYS there for berserker. Not to mention you have chance to pick LAR up.
Solution 2: Not gonna happen. Just not gonna happen.
Solution 3: Minor reduction means nothing. For Los kiting, you can do that without speed bonus. And each 0.1% speed bonus you get, the easier fp could be kited. And you ARE able to take mroe hits even with only 1% resistance.
Let me kindly remind again, THIS IS INTENDED.
I say stop considering those rambo for a reason. One freaking simple reason. You just NEVER ABLE TO stop them.
And before you make scrake will rage no matter what, they can be kite till next year.
And before you make some perks not possible, in any way, to kill fps, you cannot stop berserkers. Berserker can tank an 6-man HoE fp till he axe him to death without armour, and without kiting (because you tank his hits). So any fix to LoS dont stop berserkers, but only hurting the chance for other perks. (and people cpuld stop those BS of other perks dont stand a chance)
Also, even LoS kiting is changed, there WILL be some way to reset the rage timer. (cos again, TWI WANTS all perks having a chance to kill fps) So fp WILL be solo-able no matter what is changed.
Unless you make it impossible. There will be a way to deal with anything. So the complain will never stop.
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I agree. Remember the Bunny Hoppers when CS 1st came out. They applied a fix, but the players found a way around it and the hopping continued.
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Like others have said, this mechanic is an intentional one to make all perks able to take care of FP's if they are the last perk standing.
Currently, the Scrake is actually the specimen that can be "impossible" to kill for some perks (very dangerous for a lone Medic for example)
Aight, no harm done
Ofc, ofc. The point that im trying to get across is that while those perks can be very strong against one or both of the big enemies, they can only do so with a limited (and often expensive) amount of attacks while on top of that being weak against certain smaller/medium zeds. The Zerker can handle every single enemy by himself and doing so with unlimited-lasting weapons. I think this can be solved somehow, to force the Zerker to rely on teammates more / require more useage of ranged weapons if he really has to solo (i have some more ideas, but more to that in the end of this post)
Well, it was an easy, open map. I think i would probably be able to do that on HoE too, yeah. But in a small map (BioticsLab, Bedlam) i don't know if i would've been able to pull it off.
You know, i got some ideas from this. More to that in the end of the response
Oh and about this part: "If they change the FP and SC, then the players who like to Ranbo will still Ranbo, and when the FP or the SC comes along then they will turn and run back to where the team is, and then as soon as it's dead they will go back to thier spot"
I think that's a valid way to play the Zerker (if you are relatively close to the group so you can help take care of Scrakes for example) as that is basicly how it SHOULD be played, as the perk needs quite a lot of room to play well and to not block your buddies' shots. If he needs* to run back to the team from the bigger/dangerous enemies, then you have got the teamwork requirement completed right there
(* by NEED, i mean that it would be the absolute smartest thing to do. You don't NEED to run back, as no perk actually NEEDS to run to your teammates to take care of a FP for example. All perks can LoS-kite them, but if you have teammates to help you out, it would be stupid not to run to them. Just to clarify)
But that's good. He has to use the same anti-fp method like all other perks do: Regular LoS-kiting and using ranged weapons with limited ammo. Which is the whole point of that change. FP's should not be able to be killed with a 150
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I'd have to disagree with you there, the quality of the ZEDs in Killing Floor is actually very impressive. Sure people can model, sure people can code, but there are a number of factors that you are overlooking.
Spoiler!
I still think the Berserker can be curbed effectively, and throughout all suggestions I feel focusing on making the Berserker weaker against the Fleshpound is the best (and fairest) way to go. It encourages teamwork without ruining him completely when he's going it alone, and I think we can all agree thats the direction we want to head.
It keeps the Berserker fun and able to operate well alone, but if he knows he is gonna struggle against the Fleshpound he doesn't feel inclined to abandon his team like he does. BUt hey we've argued the toss about this already, I'm still waiting for a conclusion as to whether or not the Berserker needs a nerf to rambo ability. I think he does, this is meant to be a game built around cooperation after all, and having 1 class capapble of beating everything alone so reliably (Hard or not, its still rather reliable
), goes against that grain somewhat. If so, every perk has their kryptonite, and I think a 9ft tall, 500lb+, half man, half machine, adrenaline pumped walking meat grinder would be a pretty good candidate for an anti melee specimen.
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Source?
This current mechanic is pretty much exactly the same as the "Shoot, wait 2 seconds, shoot again" tactic, except now you must put an object inbetween you and the FP every so often. Which isn't hard at all.
The following is from an update released quite a while ago.
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=34241
As you can see, the intended behaviour of the FP is to rage if you keep moving away from it.
That's what LoS kiting is. You keep moving away, losing line of sight and slowly taking his health down until he's dead.
He's supposed to rage, but he doesn't, and that needs fixing.
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And medic is the perk which can dodge and then ignore even the scrake is blocking half of the hallway with ease... that's why I said before you make scrake auto-rage, it is not a real threat for the last man standing. You can always avoid hitting the scrake and wait until you kill every single non-scrake.
Important thing is about "how" you run around the map. When you run around the map in a circle, and the circle is big enough, that's more than enough. And it is actually easier in bedlam or biolab to kite around because you break LoS with husks and fleshpounds much more easier. And that's why you will rarely see even a berserker solo a good amont of zeds on office. You just cant find a "big enough circle" easily, so half of the zed with turn around and use another stair to get to you, resulting in the player sandwished by 10-20 zeds on each side.
One of the popular rambo map, farm.Oh and about this part: "If they change the FP and SC, then the players who like to Ranbo will still Ranbo, and when the FP or the SC comes along then they will turn and run back to where the team is, and then as soon as it's dead they will go back to thier spot"
I think that's a valid way to play the Zerker (if you are relatively close to the group so you can help take care of Scrakes for example) as that is basicly how it SHOULD be played, as the perk needs quite a lot of room to play well and to not block your buddies' shots. If he needs* to run back to the team from the bigger/dangerous enemies, then you have got the teamwork requirement completed right there
(* by NEED, i mean that it would be the absolute smartest thing to do. You don't NEED to run back, as no perk actually NEEDS to run to your teammates to take care of a FP for example. All perks can LoS-kite them, but if you have teammates to help you out, it would be stupid not to run to them. Just to clarify)
Rambo spot a zed which he cant take on alone.
Break LoS.
The next thing you know that zeds have already switched target. (unless you are utterly far away from the team, say, 100+ meters)
You dont even need to run back to the team.
This is how rambo works...
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You can always tell if a certain perk is overpowered. The biggest reason is;
Everyone uses it.
I also think it should be nerf but only slightly, so theres a slimmer chance of a winning with a LVL6 Berzerker vs FP on HOE difficulty. For example;
- Reduce immunity to damage slightly.
- Reduce speed slightly.
- Reduce damage slightly.
Simple, and will balance the gameplay out more.
I see how the Sharp Shooter Perk is nerfed further on HOE difficulty with reload and recoil bonuses fully stripped. So I think a Berzerker nerf for HOE definitely should be on the cards.
At the current state, its just way too easy playing on HOE servers with the Berzerker perk. I can't imagine how easier it is on anything less than HOE difficulty.
I'll stick to my Sharpshooter perk...
Everyone uses it.
I also think it should be nerf but only slightly, so theres a slimmer chance of a winning with a LVL6 Berzerker vs FP on HOE difficulty. For example;
- Reduce immunity to damage slightly.
- Reduce speed slightly.
- Reduce damage slightly.
Simple, and will balance the gameplay out more.
I see how the Sharp Shooter Perk is nerfed further on HOE difficulty with reload and recoil bonuses fully stripped. So I think a Berzerker nerf for HOE definitely should be on the cards.
At the current state, its just way too easy playing on HOE servers with the Berzerker perk. I can't imagine how easier it is on anything less than HOE difficulty.
I'll stick to my Sharpshooter perk...
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Theres all different types of players. But generally, people play with the perk that will keep them in the game longer. I'm a sharpshooter HOE player, I've only used berzerker twice since the patch and find too easy to take anything down, run away from husks etc etc. Your perspective is also true.
Having more speed is always better than less speed. Heck, you can even give yourself a 5-10 sec break on HOE in some maps. So you cant say its easier to have zerker speed reduced when your in the midst from sirens, husks, charging gorefasts and getting out of FP's sight.
Reducing damage means requiring more time to take down enemies, makes a big difference when you consider Sharp Shooters now require 2 shots from a Hand Cannon to kill a Stalker and Crawler on HOE- difference aint small there buddy.
If you rage a FP with berzerker, means your not doing it right as they shouldnt be raged at all.
As you said, looking at it from both sides.
Seems that I was wrong about the Reload and Recoil nerf on HOE. Its actually on the perk itself. But the 140% headshot bonus for 9mm has been reduced to 40% for HOE.
enough said and back to the point - Berzerker needs to be nerfed a little to make it harder. The amount of input to survive with any other perk other than Berzerker requires a lot of skill, experience and know how the spawning system works. In other words, its the most easiest perk to survive with in the game. Period.
Having more speed is always better than less speed. Heck, you can even give yourself a 5-10 sec break on HOE in some maps. So you cant say its easier to have zerker speed reduced when your in the midst from sirens, husks, charging gorefasts and getting out of FP's sight.
Reducing damage means requiring more time to take down enemies, makes a big difference when you consider Sharp Shooters now require 2 shots from a Hand Cannon to kill a Stalker and Crawler on HOE- difference aint small there buddy.
If you rage a FP with berzerker, means your not doing it right as they shouldnt be raged at all.
As you said, looking at it from both sides.
Seems that I was wrong about the Reload and Recoil nerf on HOE. Its actually on the perk itself. But the 140% headshot bonus for 9mm has been reduced to 40% for HOE.
enough said and back to the point - Berzerker needs to be nerfed a little to make it harder. The amount of input to survive with any other perk other than Berzerker requires a lot of skill, experience and know how the spawning system works. In other words, its the most easiest perk to survive with in the game. Period.
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Theres all different types of players. But generally, people play with the perk that will keep them in the game longer. I'm a sharpshooter HOE player, I've only used berzerker twice since the patch and find too easy to take anything down, run away from husks etc etc. Your perspective is also true.
Having more speed is always better than less speed. Heck, you can even give yourself a 5-10 sec break on HOE in some maps. So you cant say its easier to have zerker speed reduced when your in the midst from sirens, husks, charging gorefasts and getting out of FP's sight.
A 5% to 10% is not going to make much of a diff when it comes to putting distance between you and the Zed, but in some situations I feel it would be better, such as the situation I listed before.
Reducing damage means requiring more time to take down enemies, makes a big difference when you consider Sharp Shooters now require 2 shots from a Hand Cannon to kill a Stalker and Crawler on HOE- difference aint small there buddy.
Only if it is not a headshot, which after all is what the SS is supposed to do.
If you rage a FP with berzerker, means your not doing it right as they shouldnt be raged at all.
True, (along the same lines as a SS not hitting the head), but it does happen. A single crawler on the heel of a FP can push the damage over the limit, as can a husk fire ball. have seen it happen.
As you said, looking at it from both sides.
Seems that I was wrong about the Reload and Recoil nerf on HOE. Its actually on the perk itself. But the 140% headshot bonus for 9mm has been reduced to 40% for HOE.
enough said and back to the point - Berzerker needs to be nerfed a little to make it harder. The amount of input to survive with any other perk other than Berzerker requires a lot of skill, experience and know how the spawning system works. In other words, its the most easiest perk to survive with in the game. Period.
This was covered in another thread.
Zerker requiers more skill and know how than any other perk; His weapons do not have sights, so he has to be able to judge range to target, and target position to get a headshot, control the spawn, know the map inside and out; where the spawn points are, where he can stop, for how long, and a few other things.
Other perks camp, funnel zeds into a chokepoint and left click when something shows up, (simplistic example, i know, but basicaly what it boils down to).
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"Only if you do not break the LOS"
Did you just throw that in there yourself and now that's their official stance on this?
Or has TWI actually stated this?
LoS kiting is pretty much just a work around of abusing the "tactic" that they were originally trying to fix. I personally don't think they were aware of the faults in having the rage timer reset when losing LoS at the time.
Now that it's a more commonly known "tactic" and a lot more people are abusing it, I think it's about time that it's fixed.
What I don't understand is why would they intentionally put LoS kiting in when it's just as bad as the previous kiting they wanted to fix?
Did you just throw that in there yourself and now that's their official stance on this?
Or has TWI actually stated this?
LoS kiting is pretty much just a work around of abusing the "tactic" that they were originally trying to fix. I personally don't think they were aware of the faults in having the rage timer reset when losing LoS at the time.
Now that it's a more commonly known "tactic" and a lot more people are abusing it, I think it's about time that it's fixed.
What I don't understand is why would they intentionally put LoS kiting in when it's just as bad as the previous kiting they wanted to fix?
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Well if LoS Kiting gets removed, this will force everyone to deal with the FP right when its first gets LoS to the players. Or suffer a Rage all 15 to 20 seconds (was the correct time?).
This will make Soloing as Berserker more difficult, or with any other Perk.
Is it possible to alter the LoS Mechanic of the FP via a Mutator ? I'd be willing to rent a Server for that.
This will make Soloing as Berserker more difficult, or with any other Perk.
Is it possible to alter the LoS Mechanic of the FP via a Mutator ? I'd be willing to rent a Server for that.
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The link I listed suggests that it is intended, since the dev's did not change it during the beta testing.
Originally Posted by [TW]Ramm-Jaeger
We want them to be able to be decapitated. It gives the melee class a chance against them. It also helps other classes that don't have extremely powerful weapons. We just don't want them one shot decapped with a knife in one hit.
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I think it is 10 seconds, so we are looking at about at least 3 rages before it is dead. Will a single Zerker be able to still do it?
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The link I listed suggests that it is intended, since the dev's did not change it during the beta testing.
Originally Posted by [TW]Ramm-Jaeger
We want them to be able to be decapitated. It gives the melee class a chance against them. It also helps other classes that don't have extremely powerful weapons. We just don't want them one shot decapped with a knife in one hit.
How does that suggest that unlimited kiting is intended?
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