At this part I can't see how the unlock system is supposed to be a good thing.
- Thread starter Scarf Ace
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God I loathe ludicrous statements like this. I can't believe in a PC only game people still spew this garbage.
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Simple but shocking truth is: In the big picture, he is correct.
I don't mind upgrades and skinner boxes. What I do mind is this intrusion into the atmosphere of the game. Call me petty, but all this non-detachable unlocks and mp40/II for everyone is really bothering me.
I will still play the game. I will still enjoy it. But I will enjoy it much less than I could.
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No, not really.
Stat progression appeals to a myriad of different types of gamers. Whether it should be in RO2 or not is up for debate and I'm not arguing either way about it, but I will say that the "it was put in for console kiddies and CoD players" is a misguided and subjective point of view.
Pfft, far easier to hate than to actually think about the real reasoning behind something I suppose.
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Unlocking simply isn't properly compatible with RO gameplay. It can't be implemented in any way that doesn't make it either a total waste of time (both for the devs and the players) or a game breaker.
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This unlock and stat crap appeals to the people who hang back when attacking, barely ever do any good for their team and waste vital class slots. You know, the kind of kiddies who refuse to accept the RO2 mindset.
Tripwire lost sales from smart people to make unwelcome kiddies that want **** like progression buy the game. I bet they would have sold more and had a better community without it.
When there was that big drama back a month or 2 ago, Ramm's post certainly didn't get back all the potentially lost buyers.
The fact is TWI sacrificed a (probably tiny) part of its community so that a moronic minority that probably won't stay around long will buy RO2. They wasted time, money and energy on this fundamentally flawed unlock system when they could've fixed things and made the game play better. They could've added quite a few improvements if they left out unlocks, and we'd probably be happier with the game now.
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This may be the case with weapons, but with classes from what I've seen it levels up with your overall points while playing that class. And you obviously get more points by far by doing objectives and team actions than killing. If I'm wrong and it does it should.
To say that some type of horde of "little kiddies" are going to be attracted to this game because of stat progression is stupid. Most of those stereotypical people you're talking about only care about their K/D, not some sort of stat progression. Do you really think CoD would have lost people if all weapons and equip unlocks were immediately available? I doubt it. If someone only joins a game because of something like that, that also means they are likely to leave anyways once they've unlocked everything. Hell I think many of those gamers played CoD more for the vanity unlocks than actual physical gameplay impacting unlocks.
I'm glad you think only a moronic minority is going to be playing RO2 and somehow the whole RO community will just be destroyed because of some type of little stat progression.
I don't get where you think there's two type of people the "moronic minority" and the "good RO players TWI lost." Clearly those are the only type of gamers who will be playing(or not playing) RO2?
Essentially all I'm seeing is being angry that they are trying to expand their RO2 community. That doesn't mean they're trying to copy CoD or something.
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I frequently top the scoreboard because I know this, especially when my team is full of such people who seemingly refuse to realise it. I've got enough years of gaming behind me to know most of them will never learn. A lot of these people are straight outta CODton.
Tripwire are trying to attract people with it. It doesn't work. Why would anyone buy a game for an arbitrary unlock system, especially a bad one? It's a lose-lose situation. TWI made a big mistake by marketing towards a more casual audience, or at least what they seem to think a casual audience wants.
Their plan should've been to prioritise and show off how RO is different, not to market and develop silly features like relaxed mode and "progression."
We know that stat progression has pissed people off. Sure, it won't keep all the good players away, but you can't deny the game wouldn't be better off without it.
You haven't been on the forums too long, or playing RO1, have you? Actually, you don't even need to go there to notice. There was widespread dissatisfaction the first time the unlock system was advertised by TWI, I saw it from here to Facebook to 4chan. There's no denying they lost sales because of it.
So far still nobody has shown that the progression system can have any positive impact. The only arguments I've seen are "well it ain't so bad".
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Uuhu. And now try seeing it from the other perspective.
Players that aren't on your super high level.
And personally I wouldn't feel as good about a kill as now if I knew that I had the better in-game character and the better gun.
Playing on unequal terms is just not fun for me from either way.
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From what I see they are trying to add something for different types of players, the same reasoning that server admins can tweak their servers with how they see fit. And to call RO2's unlock system bad is mainly a matter of opinion, it seems not worse or better than many I've seen in games.
I don't know if the game would be better without it or not, which is why I'm not really ranting about or trying to constantly advocate it's a good thing. I've seen a lot of gaming communities end up being wrong about a lot of changes and their impact of the community but I've also seen correct predictions as well. But RO2 isn't even out yet, and I don't think anyone will really be able to tell how it's community turns out until the game has been released an settles down a bit. But of course, we'll all have out opinions until then.
I obviously haven't been posting on these forums for that long and I never played RO1 so I don't know how the community is. (I blame marketing, I never heard about RO1 until I heard about RO2). And I don't need to see that dissatisfaction, it kind of seemed obvious and I know that stat system was revealed to be in the game way way back.
As I said I never played RO1 and was never part of that community so perhaps I don't see this at the same perspective as you do. But since I didn't play it I can look at RO2 for what it is and not what I thought it should have been without an RO1 bias. And I don't see the unlock system being a terrible thing for the game unless it turns out having too many things being unlocked and it breaking authenticity on weapons, but from what I've seen and played in beta it doesn't seem to. As long as the stat percentage doesn't increase over at most 25% or something I don't see it giving a ridiculous advantage to players. Even then if the stats stay I'd only want to see something like 15%.
Those stats simulate some weapon control we can't do such as setting up an MG or reloading a little faster. We can only interact with our weapons so much, essentially only with our mice as input. However because of this I'm not sure why things like sway are also in the stat progression.
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Funny thing is, I'm not generally against stat progression and unlocks in RO, I doubt many of "us" RO vets are.
But please do it right.
But please do it right.
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Well, I'm actually looking forward to all this stuff.
I'm not really a fan of achievements etc and definitely consider myself a hardcore PC Gamer + dig realistic games.
I like the sense of progression with all the stat tracking and unlocks. Makes for a more satisfying experience IMO.
As long as it's not ridiculously overpowered or unrealistic (which it doesn't seem to be at all from what I know) it's all good in my book.
+ I don't care if more experienced players can reload faster etc. That's totally fine IMO. Noobs are going to have a *much* harder time learning the maps and so on than a being killed due to another player having a few extra % here and there.
Just my opinion.
I'm not really a fan of achievements etc and definitely consider myself a hardcore PC Gamer + dig realistic games.
I like the sense of progression with all the stat tracking and unlocks. Makes for a more satisfying experience IMO.
As long as it's not ridiculously overpowered or unrealistic (which it doesn't seem to be at all from what I know) it's all good in my book.
+ I don't care if more experienced players can reload faster etc. That's totally fine IMO. Noobs are going to have a *much* harder time learning the maps and so on than a being killed due to another player having a few extra % here and there.
Just my opinion.
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I agree with NO unlocks. Originally, I got interested in RO2 because it seemed like something different, a trully slower paced, strategic, intense shooter. But from what I've read on these forums, it's begginning to sound like another COD-type shooter. More fast paced, catering towards the mainstream. IMO, TWI took the wrong approach here. Instead of marketing the game as something different, a refreshing change of pace, they have fallen into that category of "Oh, just another COD clone, but this time with a pretense of realism." This, coupled with the game's array of bugs, is seriously making me reconsider buying it.
I just hope the Darkest Hour team makes a true, realistic shooter like what RO2 should've been.
I just hope the Darkest Hour team makes a true, realistic shooter like what RO2 should've been.
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The progression system seems to be fundamentally flawed to quite a few people, and any sort of unlocking is also unwelcome to many.
Giving server admins the right options may not be enough. If the default "as Tripwire intended" setting is with unlocks, it means that servers with custom settings will all get clumped together, so if you want for example a server where there are no MKbs, drum mags for all PPShs and bayonets for all, you'll need to skim through all kinds of other customised servers. TWI has to make an official no unlock mode with properly realistic loadouts and stuff, otherwise the more classic style servers might be very hard to find and populate.
We'll have to wait and see.
The stat system wasn't showed off properly until not too long ago.
We don't need faster sighting up, we don't need faster MG deployment. We need a balanced environment for players. We need to make sure newcomers aren't even more at a disadvantage than they already are with the unforgiving gameplay.
RO2 should be about skill and tactics. The progression system is either gonna be pointlessly ineffective to the point where they should've not spent time making it, or it'll mean that arbitrary numbers and unlocks will affect the outcome of rounds and frustrate some people in the process.
As for those who want a "sense of progression", frankly I don't see why you'd want anything more than a badge and a skin difference for that. That would be symbolic enough for me. I don't need an unfair advantage to point out my skill with the K98.
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It's different tastes. I am excited about the upgrades, and the last console I owned played Pong(which also rules me out of the 'kid' demographic). Character progression adds to the appeal for many people.
I have no doubt that skill will remain the biggest factor. RO2 is brutal for people who don't know the maps and who try to play run'n gun. Somewhere, there's a bolter who is waiting for them to stand up in that window again. As long as none of the upgrades involve force fields or powered armor, a skilled, knowledgeable player will have huge advantages, regardless of equipment.
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There are a lot of people equating the progression system with unfair advantage. How is it exactly an unfair advantage? I'd call it an advantage for sure and you could still argue whether it should really be in the game or not but I don't see it as unfair.
It may seem unfair in the sense that getting killed by someone who was 10% faster with their weapon because of stats seems unfair but that's the same idea that someone behind cover is at an unfair advantage facing off with someone who isn't behind cover.
I see it as a "fair" advantage because all players have access to the progression system.
As I said, you can still discussion whether it should be in or not because as you have said new players will already have a disadvantage, but I wouldn't call the system unfair.
It may seem unfair in the sense that getting killed by someone who was 10% faster with their weapon because of stats seems unfair but that's the same idea that someone behind cover is at an unfair advantage facing off with someone who isn't behind cover.
I see it as a "fair" advantage because all players have access to the progression system.
As I said, you can still discussion whether it should be in or not because as you have said new players will already have a disadvantage, but I wouldn't call the system unfair.
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Grain elevator is fair, it's just that many players are quite clueless when it comes to offensive play.
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Grain Elevator is plenty fair. If the Nazis can cap the first two points, I've never seen them lose after that.
It just doesn't sit well with me, chaps. The reason I avoid most progression systems is precisely because I'm poor and I buy games when the price drops. I avoid multiplayer precisely because by the time I get my hands on it I'm severely hampered, lack the twitch reflexes and the coordination, and basically spend several hours blundering around maps getting insta-killed before I go on to do something more fun.
The last thing I need is to be going up against a guy I literally cannot beat even if I act a split second before he does.
It just doesn't sit well with me, chaps. The reason I avoid most progression systems is precisely because I'm poor and I buy games when the price drops. I avoid multiplayer precisely because by the time I get my hands on it I'm severely hampered, lack the twitch reflexes and the coordination, and basically spend several hours blundering around maps getting insta-killed before I go on to do something more fun.
The last thing I need is to be going up against a guy I literally cannot beat even if I act a split second before he does.
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Not all players have the time to unlock things at an equal pace, not all players start playing on launch day. That makes it unfair. I don't want to get a game mechanical disadvantage because I don't spend all my free time with RO2. I also want to hop in, play, and not have any content denied from me.
New players won't know what they're doing at first. Once they get a grasp the game properly, they'll be at a massive disadvantage. I don't know about you, but that would get me very frustrated. If my fears turn out to be true, I will get frustrated by this system.
I don't want to get kills thanks to superior stats. I don't want to die because of inferior ones. If it makes no difference, then the system was a waste of development time.
The unlock system kills accessibility. It's bad for attracting new players post-launch.
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