Shotgun Ammunition

[Sammers]

Yeah? And why is that? You haven't offered a whole lot as to WHY this is a crap idea,

Because offering this kind of variety to one perk WOULD make it OP. Note my use of the word WOULD, because IF it did get implemented, it WOULD make the Support perk OP. To make it remotely balanced, other perks would at least need the same sort of ammo varieties, making any perk able to effectively deal with anything in the game and eliminate the very point of having any perks at all. On top of all this, it would take presumably an assload of code for something that obviously wont work and imho, is a pile of crap as far as plausible ideas go. Try to bear in mind, you are applying your suggestion to only one bloody perk, which puts that perk at a supreme advantage over the others, thus meaning it WOULD be OP. To top it off, if the damage was nerfed on these upgrades to balance them, they'd have to be nerfed to nigh useless stats so that they don't prove more useful that other perks' weapons, for example; the frag shell would have to do a ridiculously ****ty damage if you're able to fire 20 of them and for them to not do more damage than an actual grenade launcher. Otherwise, nobody would use the Demo perk because Support would be far better, again proving it to be OP, SHOULD this idea be added. I hope this extreme level of detail has shined light onto why your idea will NEVER be added.

 

[Surkov]

Because offering this kind of variety to one perk WOULD make it OP. Note my use of the word WOULD, because IF it did get implemented, it WOULD make the Support perk OP. To make it remotely balanced, other perks would at least need the same sort of ammo varieties, making any perk able to effectively deal with anything in the game and eliminate the very point of having any perks at all. On top of all this, it would take presumably an assload of code for something that obviously wont work and imho, is a pile of crap as far as plausible ideas go. Try to bear in mind, you are applying your suggestion to only one bloody perk, which puts that perk at a supreme advantage over the others, thus meaning it WOULD be OP. To top it off, if the damage was nerfed on these upgrades to balance them, they'd have to be nerfed to nigh useless stats so that they don't prove more useful that other perks' weapons, for example; the frag shell would have to do a ridiculously ****ty damage if you're able to fire 20 of them and for them to not do more damage than an actual grenade launcher. Otherwise, nobody would use the Demo perk because Support would be far better, again proving it to be OP, SHOULD this idea be added. I hope this extreme level of detail has shined light onto why your idea will NEVER be added.

Did i mention anywhere that i think the support specialist is the only perk who should get a major tune up? No. I think you could balance the support specialist by giving the other perks their own unique abilities, right now the perk system works mostly on a buffing damage of a certain weapon in the hands of someone with a certain perk. As far as abilities that make a class feel distinct there are a few traits that sort of accomplish this but even some these traits given to perks are shared making them lose their individual value and you know what that's okay. I just think TWI needs to push it a little further and add more otherwise the game will never get past the ordinary back and forth balancing procedures between common traits and buffs. And on another note your still only thinking in terms of damage, the blast radius on an explosive shell could be small enough to only kill 2-3 specimens at most and wound a few more. My whole reason for supporting this idea in particular is that the support specialist would be able to "fill in" for other perks adding versatility without overshadowing them, what I'm saying is I don't expect a shotgun slug to replace a Sharpshooter anytime soon.

 

[Sammers]

Did i mention anywhere that i think the support specialist is the only perk who should get a major tune up? No.

No, but hese are the kinds of things that you should be bloody mentioning if you ever want a single chance in hell of having your suggestion implemented. How the hell are we supposed to know what you're thinking?

I think you could balance the support specialist by giving the other perks their own unique abilities

But Supports' extra ammo wont exactly be 'unique' since it fires slugs and frags, both of which already exist.

you know what that's okay.

Exactly, it is okay. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I just think TWI needs to push it a little further and add more

Here's where you are going wrong. Just because you think it is a good idea, does not mean a lot of people do. Nor does it mean it'll actually work.

otherwise the game will never get past the ordinary back and forth balancing procedures between common traits and buffs.

It has already passed the ordinary. It is a very good game and is rather successful.

And on another note your still only thinking in terms of damage

No I am not, I am thinking mainly about the variety. You are giving the strengths of multiple perks to support, using only one weapon. That is broken.

My whole reason for supporting this idea in particular is that the support specialist would be able to "fill in" for other perks adding versatility without overshadowing them

Support has those extra weight blocks for a reason! Those extra weight blocks are there, so that Support can carry more weapons and fill in for other perks without overshadowing them! You are merely suggesting something game-breaking with the intentions of it filling in a requirement that is already filled! This idea is pointless!

I don't expect a shotgun slug to replace a Sharpshooter anytime soon.

So why expect them to be added at all if the Sharpshooter overshadows them? If you want Support perk to have weak slugs, buy a goddamn Lever Action Rifle and be happy with it. If you want Support ot be able to carry two shotguns AND weak slugs AND weak grenades, then you are asking for too much.

 

[Unit-05]

This is not a good idea because the Support Specialist is perfect as it is right now. And if i'm correct, the Scrake has a 50% bonus against explosives

And the support specialist has bonuses to grenade damage, whats your point?

 

[Surkov]

No, but hese are the kinds of things that you should be bloody mentioning if you ever want a single chance in hell of having your suggestion implemented.

Alright, that was pretty stupid of me, i didn't really care to add that bit at the time because it was a totally different discussion, not that it matters since that's where we are now anyway.

But Supports' extra ammo wont exactly be 'unique' since it fires slugs and frags, both of which already exist.

Well while there are slugs and grenades fired in game, neither can be fired from a shotgun therefore the support specialist gets no bonus from it. Really though the ability to change types of ammo is what would be unique and i did include a few shotguns rounds that accomplish things other perks can't as well as two types of shells that seem weak when compared to the perks they fill in for. A example would be the frag rounds vs the grenade launcher I'd expect the actual launcher to have a larger blast radius and the frag rounds to have a smaller blast radius, the launcher of course while more powerful would have a smaller round capacity due to the sheer size of grenades compared to shells, so you could expect a support specialist to deal with smaller groups and thanks to the capacity of his shotgun's more of those small group's than the demo, the reason i wouldn't expect that to overshadow him however is that with a small blast radius it would take alot more shots to destroy a large group making him less effective than demolitions on top of that demolitions has more to work with than just grenades, he has pipe-bombs too and in the future maybe even more, when you get down to it the demolitions is just more effective at what he does than the support specialist could ever be unless you consider that if the support specialist uses the grenade launcher too, then he has the same blast radius, which will still annihilate weaker zeds all the same and really that doesn't seem too balanced to me.

Exactly, it is okay. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It can still be improved.

Here's where you are going wrong. Just because you think it is a good idea, does not mean a lot of people do. Nor does it mean it'll actually work.

Yeah that is opinion, but i think it'll work and i don't intend to stop pushing for it anytime soon.

It has already passed the ordinary. It is a very good game and is rather successful.

It is a rather good game, i think it can be even better.

No I am not, I am thinking mainly about the variety. You are giving the strengths of multiple perks to support, using only one weapon. That is broken.

I'm trying to give it versatility, yes a few things are considered the strength's of some of the other perks, but i don't intend to give them to SS at their full strength.

Support has those extra weight blocks for a reason! Those extra weight blocks are there, so that Support can carry more weapons and fill in for other perks without overshadowing them! You are merely suggesting something game-breaking with the intentions of it filling in a requirement that is already filled! This idea is pointless!

I think that's more problematic than anything else, the support specialist should use his own weapons for support not rip of weapons from other specialists.

So why expect them to be added at all if the Sharpshooter overshadows them? If you want Support perk to have weak slugs, buy a goddamn Lever Action Rifle and be happy with it. If you want Support ot be able to carry two shotguns AND weak slugs AND weak grenades, then you are asking for too much.

I think i already covered most of this above but if they are so weak then why am i asking for too much?

 

[Sammers]

lol

Well while there are slugs and grenades fired in game, neither can be fired from a shotgun therefore the support specialist gets no bonus from it.

Because those benefits go to Sharpshooter and Demolitions. If you want all three benefits in one perk, then you're asking for far too much. Currently, Support specialises in standard shotgun buckshot weaponry; Sharpshooter specialises in long range single shot weaponry; demolition specialises in explosive weaponry. If you give all three to the same perk weapon, Support can do all three jobs with a single weapon! The Support perk would infringe on the pther perk's territory.
Let's have a practical example. You are a programmer and I am an artist for KF2. I work on art, you work on code. But I know some code too, so I walk up to you and start ****ing with your job and doing both. I may not be as good at coding, but the point is, I can do it. Wouldn't you feel slightly pissed off that I am doing your job as well as my own?

and i did include a few shotguns rounds that accomplish things other perks can't as well

Surely it would make more sense to at least suggest these abilities for a weaker perk than the damned Support Perk.

the reason i wouldn't expect that to overshadow him however is that with a small blast radius it would take alot more shots to destroy a large group

The point is, he is still able to destroy the large groups with them, even if it takes more shots. And that's supposed to be a job for demolitions. Look at it this way; the M14 can destroy both small groups and large groups of zeds, even though the perk isn't meant to and that's why everyone thinks Sharpshooter is overpowered. Add better group-stopping capabilities AND single-zed mauling Slug capabilities to Support and we have the same story all over again.....only worse.

really that doesn't seem too balanced to me.

That's a matter of opinion and from my point of view, your's seems to be a really bad one.

 

[Olivier]

And the support specialist has bonuses to grenade damage, whats your point?

Explosive shotgun rounds....

 

[Surkov]

You are a programmer and I am an artist for KF2. I work on art, you work on code. But I know some code too, so I walk up to you and start ****ing with your job and doing both. I may not be as good at coding, but the point is, I can do it. Wouldn't you feel slightly pissed off that I am doing your job as well as my own?

That example has alot of variables that can stem from opinion im going to try to leave that one alone. But simply put, that depends.

Surely it would make more sense to at least suggest these abilities for a weaker perk than the damned Support Perk.

Well like i said before i don't want to buff just the Support Perk, i just think these abilities in particular are more suited to him.

The point is, he is still able to destroy the large groups with them, even if it takes more shots. And that's supposed to be a job for demolitions. Look at it this way; the M14 can destroy both small groups and large groups of zeds, even though the perk isn't meant to and that's why everyone thinks Sharpshooter is overpowered. Add better group-stopping capabilities AND single-zed mauling Slug capabilities to Support and we have the same story all over again.....only worse.

But efficiency still plays a major factor, i mean a Demolitions Perk can deal about 3360 damage by emptying the M32 into a target once, now his weapons is clearly meant to be used on groups of foes but he can still use the M32 to kill something like a Scrake the problem with that is that its just not efficient to do so, i realize that that example seems like a loose fit because of the explosive resistances in game but the main point of it is that while Demolitions can deal a fairly large amount of damage to a single target, its still preferable to let someone like a sharpshooter kill that Scrake.

That's a matter of opinion and from my point of view, your's seems to be a really bad one.

My opinion or Point of view?

 

[CandleJack]

I may seem like a fencesitter here, but i kinda agree with Surkov and Sammers.

Instead of having absolutely every weapon with every type of ammo, make the AA12 shoot 12gauge buckshot and FRAG-12 HE; but nothing else.

The Shotgun can use 12gauge buckshot and slugs, though slugs lose significant penetration and gain a single/double-target ranged effect.

The FRAG-12 would have a curve similar to the M32/M79's GL curve, while the slug would go straight for an infinite time until it hits a target.

The slugs would be only able to pass through a maximum of 2 specs before stopping.

The slug would do about the same damage of a regular shotgun blast but would be worse in close quarters because the slug would only affect specimens in a very small cone of fire. The FRAG-12 does 2/3 of the M32/M79 Gl's damage. Also a demo with an AA12 would get a damage boost, but why would a demo carry a shotgun?

You would have to buy the ammo at the trader and you couldn't switch midwave. Alternately you could have half and half, and maybe drop ammo back to nonperk levels when this is in effect.
Is this a bit more balanced, Sammers?

 

[Undedd Jester]

IMO the reason this is overpowered is cause it makes the SUpport class too versatile. It is already a very versatile perk, and this gives it more options that it simply doesn't need.

At the moment the Support has: -
- AA-12 for heavy sustained mass damage output, extremely erffective for punching through groups and to a limited degree larger specimens as well.
- Huting Shotgun for a quick massive spike to obliterate or finish off even the biggest of foes.
- Shotgun for peppering opponents and clearing out low and mid specs with ease.
- Grenades for an early spike on enemies to allow any of the previous options to finish them off.
- 24Kgs of weight to allow numerous combinations of various weapons to balance out weaknesses.
- Penetration for all shotguns to allow him to line up his foes cut through numerous ZEDs at the same time.

All these different shells with explosive Frag 12 rounds, tazer rounds and gas shells and generally AoE (Even if they are smnaller) where he merely aims in between the ZED's and cuts them down. Give him all these different shells gives him a drastically increased amount of versatility dealing with ZEDs. Furthermore he would deal damage like a demoman or firebug where he no longer has to move around to line up foes in front of him to clear the group, which is a skill the support specialist has to learn to conserve ammo.

Even if all the damage were balanced out (and from the sounds of it, it sounds like it would need a hell of alot of tweaking and refining), you will take that skill requirement away from him and he becomes Sharpshooter M14 boring where he just stands in one spot mowing lines of various zeds down with little effort.

Plus it sounds like it would be awkward and sloppy to implement. How would the selection system work? The trader menu is already confusing enough, and having 6 different types of ammo you can buy would just be major confusing.

To be fair it might just be that I'm kind of a purist when it comes to my weapons. In CoD for example I refuse to use certain guns and pretty much all attachments besides a silencer because I don't feel having to rely on an improved ability to win makes you a good player at all.

Even in Killing Floor I refuse to use the deagle (despite it beaing one of my favourite weapons) because I hate the overpoweredness of the Sharpshooter so much, and don't want to full bar it.

So personally I really don't like this idea. That being said I do see what your going for with it, but I feel it would more take away from the identity of the Support than add to it.

 

[Surkov]

IMO the reason this is overpowered is cause it makes the SUpport class too versatile. It is already a very versatile perk, and this gives it more options that it simply doesn't need.

At the moment the Support has: -
- AA-12 for heavy sustained mass damage output, extremely effective for punching through groups and to a limited degree larger specimens as well.
- Hunting Shotgun for a quick massive spike to obliterate or finish off even the biggest of foes.
- Shotgun for peppering opponents and clearing out low and mid specs with ease.
- Grenades for an early spike on enemies to allow any of the previous options to finish them off.
- 24Kgs of weight to allow numerous combinations of various weapons to balance out weaknesses.
- Penetration for all shotguns to allow him to line up his foes cut through numerous ZEDs at the same time.

That's not so much versatility as it is just flat out power. All of those weapons are close to mid range powerhouses with the Support Perk, which really just means that it play's less of a team support role and more of a supporting role to closer combat perks, most of which are tasked with knocking off weaker specimens anyway.

All these different shells with explosive Frag 12 rounds, tazer rounds and gas shells and generally AoE (Even if they are smnaller) where he merely aims in between the ZED's and cuts them down. Give him all these different shells gives him a drastically increased amount of versatility dealing with ZEDs. Furthermore he would deal damage like a demoman or firebug where he no longer has to move around to line up foes in front of him to clear the group, which is a skill the support specialist has to learn to conserve ammo.

Even if all the damage were balanced out (and from the sounds of it, it sounds like it would need a hell of alot of tweaking and refining), you will take that skill requirement away from him and he becomes Sharpshooter M14 boring where he just stands in one spot mowing lines of various zeds down with little effort.

Well considering the fact that i want him to serve as a weaker versions of Sharpshooter and Demolitions i don't really see a problem there, it just comes with a style of play and would likely require the user to be able to play the other perks effectively in order to use Support, Which would just require a different set of skills.

Plus it sounds like it would be awkward and sloppy to implement. How would the selection system work? The trader menu is already confusing enough, and having 6 different types of ammo you can buy would just be major confusing.

Erm actually the trader menu is pretty simplistic as is perhaps a drop down box sort of thing eh?

To be fair it might just be that I'm kind of a purist when it comes to my weapons. In CoD for example I refuse to use certain guns and pretty much all attachments besides a silencer because I don't feel having to rely on an improved ability to win makes you a good player at all.

I'm sorry but that's just a tad bit confusing, i would expect a weapon purist to prefer a perk to use his own weapons.

 

[Undedd Jester]

When I say improved abilities I mean CoD things like

Dead Silence, UAV Jammer, Juggernaut, Claymore Mines, Stun Grenades, Red Dot Sights, ACOGs, etc. IMO these weapons are lame and/or overpowered. They take no skill to use effectively.

In Killing Floor that would mean the Xbow, M14, Scar, etc. Anything basically that isn't lamely overpowered and doesn't require thought to play. I for example play Medic, Firebug and occasionally Berserker, because they don't rip through scores of ZEDs single handed.

Currently as support you can pick from 3 typical loadouts, each with its strengths and weaknesses. This is the choice the Support has to make, which loadout will be of more use to the team he is playing with. The efficient ammo of the shotgun? The RAW spike on the Hunting Shotgun? Or the sustained high DPS of the AA-12?

You add these different ammo types that choice is no longer there and suddenly players stick to the AA-12, since its a constant barrage of special ammunition. And as I say it makes him overly versatile since he can have special ammunition for the same gun depending on the players needs, rather than trying to decide what would be the best option for survival of the choices he has, which is really what Killing Floor is all about.

As I say, I don't know whether or not its just simply that I dislike the idea or not, but I just don't like it, and can gurantee I won't use anything other than standard ammunition out of principle.

 

[Surkov]

When I say improved abilities I mean CoD things like

Dead Silence, UAV Jammer, Juggernaut, Claymore Mines, Stun Grenades, Red Dot Sights, ACOGs, etc. IMO these weapons are lame and/or overpowered. They take no skill to use effectively.

In Killing Floor that would mean the Xbow, M14, Scar, etc. Anything basically that isn't lamely overpowered and doesn't require thought to play. I for example play Medic, Firebug and occasionally Berserker, because they don't rip through scores of ZEDs single handed.

Currently as support you can pick from 3 typical loadouts, each with its strengths and weaknesses. This is the choice the Support has to make, which loadout will be of more use to the team he is playing with. The efficient ammo of the shotgun? The RAW spike on the Hunting Shotgun? Or the sustained high DPS of the AA-12?

You add these different ammo types that choice is no longer there and suddenly players stick to the AA-12, since its a constant barrage of special ammunition. And as I say it makes him overly versatile since he can have special ammunition for the same gun depending on the players needs, rather than trying to decide what would be the best option for survival of the choices he has, which is really what Killing Floor is all about.

As I say, I don't know whether or not its just simply that I dislike the idea or not, but I just don't like it, and can gurantee I won't use anything other than standard ammunition out of principle.

Ok i think im starting to lose grasp of what your saying. Of course he still would have to decide what the best option for survival is, he simply would have to decide between more options. If your implying people would only use the AA12 then there's alot of limiting factors that can be implemented. From damage limitation by gun type to making certain types of ammunition available to certain guns, after all the fact that they don't share an ammunition pool implies that they are different shells, and as far as i know frag 12 rounds are only made as 12 gauge shells.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Ok i think im starting to lose grasp of what your saying. Of course he still would have to decide what the best option for survival is, he simply would have to decide between more options. If your implying people would only use the AA12 then there's alot of limiting factors that can be implemented. From damage limitation by gun type to making certain types of ammunition available to certain guns, after all the fact that they don't share an ammunition pool implies that they are different shells, and as far as i know frag 12 rounds are only made as 12 gauge shells.

Simple version of what I'm saying: -
- the support class is powerful enough, adding the ammunition types as per their intended purpose would make the class overpowered
- balancing to not be overpowered would mean reducing their effect from what the ammo's power should be. This makes it a case of adding them for the sake of adding them, making them just a gimmick rather than to fill an actual niche.
- balancing regardless would also be a nightmare
- giving players more options increases the versatility of the player, and the support class would simply become another sharpshooter able to take on anything. This game is supposed to be hard.

And as I say, I hate overpowered and gimmicky weapons. If you like the idea of it, fair enough, but thats the reasons I don't like it and would stick to regular shotty rounds on morale principle.

 

[Sammers]

that depends.

On what? Which of the two options has the larger odds? Yes or no?

Well like i said before i don't want to buff just the Support Perk, i just think these abilities in particular are more suited to him.

Just like a heavy machine gun would be suited to the Commando, but that would make the Commando even stronger, which we don't want. Making perks stronger doesn't make the game better, it makes the game easier; and it's already pretty damn easy with the M14 and Xbow being incredibly good.

But efficiency still plays a major factor

Players don't care about efficiency. Look at all the M14 spammers. In the end, the simplest of ideas are often the best. Give the weapon classes roles, make the perks augment one. Last thing we want is to give half augmentations to other roles, making the actual purpose of the perk far more vague.

Is this a bit more balanced, Sammers?

Not really. Support will still have Sharpshooter and Demolition benefits added to the perk on top of what it already has. And it already has enough power behind it's belt.

Undedd has basically summed up perfectly what I've been trying to say. Either the shells are too good to be added to the Support Perk, or they're nerfed to balance the game, to a near pointless set to stats. Either way, this game doesn't need them.

 

[Surkov]

Either the shells are too good to be added to the Support Perk, or they're nerfed to balance the game, to a near pointless set to stats. Either way, this game doesn't need them.

I really don't believe that. But in any case the game probably won't be seeing anything like this for a while, so ill probably bring it back up when its a little more relevant, whenever that may be.

 

[CandleJack]

Not really. Support will still have Sharpshooter and Demolition benefits added to the perk on top of what it already has. And it already has enough power behind it's belt.

Undedd has basically summed up perfectly what I've been trying to say. Either the shells are too good to be added to the Support Perk, or they're nerfed to balance the game, to a near pointless set to stats. Either way, this game doesn't need them.

I understand perfectly that it would make Support the new M14-spamming Sharpshooter, but i'm trying to entertain a new idea.

Rather than simply say "This would be cool to have in KF" i tried to say "This would be cool in KF, but it needs to be balanced"

I must say as it is i'm on your side of this argument, Support is buckshot shotguns. Take away that, or supplement it with alternatives, and it loses it's identity and not only becomes overpowered but skill-less to play.

 

[Sammers]

I must say as it is i'm on your side of this argument, Support is buckshot shotguns. Take away that, or supplement it with alternatives, and it loses it's identity and not only becomes overpowered but skill-less to play.

The only way I'd ever see alternate ammo working is if different perks got different ammo for the same weapon. Incendiery ammo for Firebug, Frag ammo for Demos. But doing this would box a perk into one method of attack, so It's probably best just to leave that idea too.

 

[Uk1t4k3]

The only way I'd ever see alternate ammo working is if different perks got different ammo for the same weapon. Incendiery ammo for Firebug, Frag ammo for Demos. But doing this would box a perk into one method of attack, so It's probably best just to leave that idea too.

If the special ammunition can only be purchase once per trader wave and only for limited magazines it would still be balanced.

 

[Azukki]

It's a neat concept that I've always wanted to see in a game, but it's no good for this game. The perks are in place to force specialization, contributing to teamwork and distinct play styles. If Support had the functionality and themes of the other perks, then what's the point of perks at all?

The shotguns belong to Support Specialist, and his theme of projectile is buckshot. Deal with it.
If you want other kinds of projectiles, pick the respective perk that shoots them.