Gunslinger Perk - Yes or No?

[Zeptorem]

just throwing it out there.......thoughts?

Are you trying to further convince me that this perk will basically be SS Lite?

This gun would be a waste on clots but would be good for knocking down gorefasts in one shot from medium range. The Gunslinger perk would bridge the gap between Support and Commando.

The microscopically-tiny gap.

How would pistols encroach on the Commando (automatic weapons, reflex sights), Support (short range shotguns, high penetration), or Sharpshooter (headshot/ long range specialist)?

It's not about what kinds of weapons they use, though Gunslinger does look like it would basically use sharpshooter-esque weapons without the headshot bonus, it's about what kind of role it plays in killing zeds. It would do the same thing as most other classes, ONLY WITH DUAL PISTOLS OMG!!!

It's a matter of perspective: either have as much variety as possible BETWEEN perks, or have more variety with the perks available.

I'd hardly call it variety. It's the difference between having a choice of eggs, pancakes, or cereal for breakfast, or 46 different kinds of oatmeal with minor variations in flavour.

More choices is not always a good thing, hell, it hardly ever is without decent justification. It would just bog down the game with more balance concerns (and believe me, KF has MORE than enough of those already).

I think more gun options besides SS, Commando and Support would freshen the game up a bit, since you would see more variety with the gun classes, hence more variety overall.

To quote you, that's a "boldy-stated matter of opinion".

There is a point of diminishing returns where additional perks are not needed and every niche is filled. The question is, are we there yet?

Hey, you're right! We should just keep adding superfluous classes until it's absolutely clear that we have too many!

Aside from range, where the Gunslinger would fill the gap between Support and Commando, there is a certain set of zeds that each perk is good at killing. The xbow SS is great for killing top tier zeds at long range. The Commando is great against lower tier zeds from short-mid range. The Support is good for low-mid tier zeds from short range. As you see here, there is nothing ideal against mid-level zeds from medium range.

Except commando (with a SCAR, at least), Firebug (depending on what you considered "mid-level"), Demolitions (depending on what you consider "mid-range"), the Sharpshooter with the LAR or M14.

But no, we should totally add a whole new perk just for mid-level zeds at mid-range instead of modifying existing perks to fill that imaginary gap, and really, what are pistols good for if not mid-range shooting, am I right or what?!

The Gunslinger could fill this role with the S&W 500. (Demo does alright against mid-tier zeds at mid-range but should mainly focus on clearing trash groups).

Says you. In the games I play the M32 is the official tool of rapists when it comes to mid-range.

Literally nothing interesting or unique enough? That's a boldly stated matter of opinion. Numerous unique gameplay mechanics have been suggested, such as independant akimbo firing and reload,

Well, in order to make that possible, you'd have to have a perk bonus of extra limbs depending on perk level.

I think a lot of players would find this highly appealing, being able to effectively shoot continuously without stopping since you could reload one gun while firing the other.

That doesn't sound game-breaking at all!

Reloading serves a very important gameplay purpose; it allows breaks in firing to give the specimens a chance to advance on the players (not to mention it provides a few "OH ****" moments when you're reloading while crawlers are gnawing on your genitals; that tension would be lost with continuous firepower).

This would be like a ranged berserker with less damage output.

"Less" relative:

Sustained DPS: 278

The gameplay value could justify the lack of realism.

Well that's a boldly-stated matter of opinion.

Also having shotgun-like power at mid range (S&W 500) would be very interesting to a lot of players.

It's spelled "overpowered", not "interesting".

Also being able to switch between single and dual wield on the fly is a unique idea for the GS perk, which would make it easy to trade range for fire rate and vice versa as the situation dictates.

It's something that's been suggested since retail for pistols in general. Having the ability to choose between using one gun or two frankly seems like idiotic perk bonus. "Damn! I need to use the iron sights on my 9mm pistol! If only I were a gunslinger, I would have the mental faculties to holster one of my weapons!"

I'm not very keen on the manual zed-time trigger ability others have suggested, but the siren resistance would certainly be useful. When a team gets mobbed by 2 or 3 sirens the GS would be the last man standing, giving the team one last chance to finish the round. It could be justified logically from years of practice on the shooting range without ear plugs

Along with the "independent reload" thing, this perk is sounding more and more like people just writing down the embarrassing ways they died and designing a perk based around that.

The way I see it, Gunslinger would be kinda like a combination beetween support and sharpshooter/commando
-> Crowd control on short and medium distances (dual pistols or similar), but being able to cause fair amount of damage on bigger targets further away (magnum?).

Oh great, so it would basically do what both of them do already, just not as well.

Still, it wouldnt be as efficent as support specialist when it comes to crowd control because his shots wont penetrate targets (except for the magnum perhaps), and not as powerful as sharpshooter when it comes to taking out the bigger baddies. Its like "all-situations" perk, which is rather equally balanced to handle anything but still isnt overpowered like the SS is currently. I mean, atm sharpshooter is the "all-situations" perk but I hope they have a fix for it coming.

You're basically proving my point that this perk is unneeded and totally redundant, HaTeMe.

This is exactly what I intended this perk to be: an all-around, versatile perk, that has an answer for every given problem. But this comes with a cost: other, "specialized" perks will handle better one thing.
The Gunslinger perk would be a perfect sidekick: he can cover a long-range sharpshooter/demolition taking the small stuff that gets close, he can take down big stuff for a commando/firebug, handle the crowd while a 'zerker takes down that scrake...

Great, a perk with no real weaknesses! Just what this game needs!

Half-Life 2? (More likely a .44 /shrug)
Uncharted 1&2? (Named the 'Wes')
RE 4&5?

Those are the only ones I can pull off the top of my head right now.

Personally I'd like to see a Machine Pistol if anything was added, but that's just me.

The S&W Model 500 was in RE4, RE5, RE: Umbrella Chronicles, The Punisher, and Hitman: Contracts. Revolvers in general, however, are pretty ubiquitous.

The S&W Model 29 was in RE5, Fallout 3, Timesplitters, RE: Outbreak, Kayne and Lynch, the Colt Anaconda in was The World Is Not Enough, Project I.G.I, 007: Agent Under Fire, Black, IGI 2: Covert Strike, Global Operations (one of my favourite games, shame no one played it), Resident Evil, Saints Row 2, Sudden Attack, Parasite Eve 2, Modern Warfare 2, and the Colt Python was in Half-Life, Half-Life 2, Lethal Enforcers, Hitman 2, The Punisher, The Godfather, Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, Resident Evil, and Perfect Dark.

Nowhere near the desert eagle, but it's all a moot point. The Deagle is here to stay, and it's not like we're choosing between the desert eagle and a revolver.

Again, what's wrong with making the desert eagle the tier-3 and choosing something even more indie (since we all seem to be hung up on that) as the Tier 2 weapon? Like the S&W Model 1006 or the LAR Grizzly? Neither of those have ever been in a video game.

Nothing, and I've seen it more than once...

But anyway. Let's make a hypothetical situation here. Let's say this post was called "Demolitions Perk - Yes or No?" and it was taking place 3 months ago. I'd wager that a lot of the people who are arguing against the gunslinger perk would argue against Demolitions.

"Demolitions will render this class irrelevant!"

"This perk already does a lot of what Demolitions will do!"

"Give Demo extra grenades? The Support already has that!"

As it stands there's already a lot of perk overlap as it is. The only two roles in this game are either bust up big things or bust up a lot of small things. Some are more to one extreme, some are more to the other extreme, and some fall in the middle ground.

So long as the perk is fun and balanced, who gives a flying circus if it overlaps with perks that already satisfy that role? That's already happening now. That argument is moot.

So let's remove the "Gunslinger already does what this perk does" argument from the table. What's left?

Gunslinger will be ineffective at range? So's Firebug, Support, and Berserker.

Gunslinger won't be all that accurate with firing really fast? Neither is commando's higher tier weapons, the M32 MGL, the AA12, etc.

All I'm seeing are a lot of strawmen, bro. And I'm using the term correctly, unlike SOME people.

The only arguments I see against Gunslinger here (which aren't stated) are:

1) "I don't want to level up a new perk."

2) "I like things the way there are, therefore change is wrong."

3) "This perk will be stupid/impractical" (and, in the meantime, disregarding the impracticality of wielding a chainsaw, a "flamethrower", two Deagles, etc. etc.

When I see someone come up with an argument or statement that actually has a good reason for Gunslinger perk to not be included (and isn't hypocritical as all hell), then maybe we can have a real discussion.

If you had read the thread at all you'd see where I'd posted multiple times that the perk is entirely redundant and would just bring about a whole new set of balance concerns, which KF already has an excess of.

"Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity."

naysayers got pwned.

What a valuable contribution! Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Madhate969]

Thank you Zept for another long, mildly informative post. so basicly you do not like this perk, you will not enjoy playing it, and you think it will cause issues?

As for the variation/redunacy you keep bringing up, is there any room for a new perk, and what roll would he fill with out being redundant? Or is this game all full and doesn't need any neww perk?

 

[brphoenix]

sharpshooter-esque weapons without the headshot bonus

Oh, how people tend to mistake pistols for perfectly accurate weaponry...

I'll re-type what has been said numerous times in this thread:
A handgun is NOT,and I repeat, NOT a Sharpshooter weapon.

I think more gun options besides SS, Commando and Support would freshen the game up a bit, since you would see more variety with the gun classes, hence more variety overall.

To quote you, that's a "boldy-stated matter of opinion".

What you said is also a "boldy-stated matter of opinion".
And to prove this point: tell me, do combat Support, Commando, and SS play alike?
When you play as Support, you just go sprayin' bullets all over, or try to pick zed's heads at long range?
When you play as Commando, do you try to align zeds to conserve ammo?
When you play as SS, do you turn around looking downwards to kill all those pesky crawlers, or wait 'till zeds get close to you to shoot at them?

Every perk,while covering the same areas, do that in a COMPLETELY different way. You just don't pick a M32 to shoot at crawlers at close range, but you do that with a bullpup. You don't get a shotgun to snipe targets from far away, you shoot at them when they're close.

Also having shotgun-like power at mid range (S&W 500) would be very interesting to a lot of players.

It's spelled "overpowered", not "interesting".

Shotgun-like power to a single (maybe two, if lucky) zeds, at range, with limited ammo, high recoil, and less chance to hit (c'mon, it's near impossible to miss a shotgun blast).
It's spelled "balanced", not "overpowered".

Great, a perk with no real weaknesses! Just what this game needs!

Tell that to sharpshooters!

This perk HAS weaknesses: while it has a solution to every problem, it can't handle them on his own.
If he tries to solo against crawlers and clots, he'll be overwhelmed because reloading akimbo takes too long.
Taking a FP on his own is a one-way ticket to hell (or heaven, if you've been a good boy ), because he can't deal enough damage to kill it without reloading, and it takes a while to reload a revolver AFAIK.
He would NEED to cooperate.
This perk could actually bring more cooperative gameplay, due to it's high assistance value.

 

[robdude19]

Are you trying to further convince me that this perk will basically be SS Lite?

I doubt many liked the hand xbow idea. That suggestion is not evidence of the perk being SS lite.

I'd hardly call it variety. It's the difference between having a choice of eggs, pancakes, or cereal for breakfast, or 46 different kinds of oatmeal with minor variations in flavour.

That's a straw man argument again (and if you don't quite understand what it means, exagerrations count). You distorted the variety position, blowing it out of proportion and implying it's ridiculous. We're talking about 4 different gun perks instead of 3, far from your Baskin-Robbins hyperbole.

Says you. In the games I play the M32 is the official tool of rapists when it comes to mid-range.

The M32 is not ideal for single targets, whereas the S&W 500 would be. And before you say "that makes him a Sharpshooter lol" remember the SS is geared for headshots, not single target kills. The xbow can kill multiple zeds anyway, and the Commando has strong single target power with semi-auto SCAR, so single target shooting is not just a Sharpshooter concept.

Well, in order to make that possible, you'd have to have a perk bonus of extra limbs depending on perk level.

I already said one-handed reloading isn't very realistic but the gameplay value justifies it, in the same way that a syringe or dart cannot bring you from the brink of death back to full health in a matter of seconds. Stop ignoring my counter-points.

That doesn't sound game-breaking at all!

Reloading serves a very important gameplay purpose; it allows breaks in firing to give the specimens a chance to advance on the players (not to mention it provides a few "OH ****" moments when you're reloading while crawlers are gnawing on your genitals; that tension would be lost with continuous firepower).

Continuous firepower that is not as strong as any other firepower in the game would not be game-breaking. Shooting like this would require patience, skill and judgement. Keep in mind you would be hip firing with a single pistol at the same rate that you could normally aim fire. Reloading is already really fast with the SS and Commando perks. In regards to high sustained damage per second with the S&W, remember that you would only have about 50 shots before you ran out, so you wouldn't be comparable to a zerker in terms of total potential damage ouput.

It's spelled "overpowered", not "interesting" ...
Oh great, so it would basically do what both of them do already, just not as well.

Are you saying the Gunslinger would be overpowered, even though it doesn't do any specific task as well as any other perk? If it had a good tier 3 gun like the S&W 500 then it wouldn't need the 75% damage boost. 60% at lvl 6 would be sufficient along with the recoil reduction, faster reload/draw speed and extra ammo.

If you had read the thread at all you'd see where I'd posted multiple times that the perk is entirely redundant and would just bring about a whole new set of balance concerns, which KF already has an excess of.

"Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity."

The GS perk is not beyond necessity. Most agree that the current SS perk is overpowered, and that the M14 should be nerfed. This isn't enough since the xbow/dual HC combo can still deal very well with everything in the game, the xbow being the ultimate high damage/long range killer and the dual HC's being powerful short-range weapons. The OP suggested that the pistol boost should be taken away from SS, which would be a big step in balancing the perk.

You argue that the Gunslinger perk would bring a lot of balance issues? It couldn't possibly have more balance issues than the current SS does unless the GS perk skills were way too powerful. The S&W 500 would definitely NOT replace the xbow as a powerful long-range weapon, and the Handcannon/9mm boosts would be about the same since they don't have headshot bonus. Therefore the Gunslinger would be versatile but much less so than the current SS perk. You even suggested removing the pistol bonus from SS, which I agree with, but if you do this, why not add a new perk so that all weapons have a perk bonus like they do currently? The SS basically is a Gunslinger except he doesn't have to use the pistols much. Right now it's 2 perks in 1, minus a tier 3 handgun.

What a valuable contribution! Thanks for your thoughts.

Thanks for saying the same things over and over, it's just as valuable each time.

 

[!_Zombie_!]

This perk HAS weaknesses: while it has a solution to every problem, it can't handle them on his own.
If he tries to solo against crawlers and clots, he'll be overwhelmed because reloading akimbo takes too long.
Taking a FP on his own is a one-way ticket to hell (or heaven, if you've been a good boy ), because he can't deal enough damage to kill it without reloading, and it takes a while to reload a revolver AFAIK.
He would NEED to cooperate.
This perk could actually bring more cooperative gameplay, due to it's high assistance value.

So is this class basically every other class in the game? According to this I'm guessing the Gunslinger would be FORCED to pair up to be effective.

So before I get in depth with this, what is the incentive to pair up like

Gunslinger + SS over Commando + SS/Support + SS/Commando + Support? Any other combo for that matter. What is the factor of this class that will make you WANT to play it and pair it up with another class over our current ones other than just cool factor?

 

[robdude19]

Gunslinger + SS over Commando + SS/Support + SS/Commando + Support? Any other combo for that matter. What is the factor of this class that will make you WANT to play it and pair it up with another class over our current ones other than just cool factor?

Its unique effectiveness at all ranges. If/when SS gets nerfed, SS won't be the jack of all trades anymore, that would go to Gunslinger.

 

[brphoenix]

Its unique effectiveness at all ranges. If/when SS gets nerfed, SS won't be the jack of all trades anymore, that would go to Gunslinger.

And he'll be more balanced at that than the SS currently is.

 

[Reise]

Its unique effectiveness at all ranges. If/when SS gets nerfed, SS won't be the jack of all trades anymore, that would go to Gunslinger.

The reason people challenge the proposition is because when you say "Jack of all trades" people immediately associate that with overpoweredness.

Gunslinger may fit the all-arounder role but his weakness should be that he isn't great at any of those roles.

This means no scoped or automatic weapons, and no perk bonuses that surpass the bonuses of other perks.

I still stand behind the increased damage during ZedTime perk bonus, but otherwise his damage should not be above what the other perks put out. At best it should be equal to Commando for instance, when using dual wielded weapons.

What's the point of the perk then? Variety, something new, maybe a new weapon to play with. When I first imagined the idea, the main motivation behind it was to take handguns and put them in their own category because they didn't make sense where they were. I also wanted to see a revolver added to the game. That's it. I didn't intend for the perk to go down the route it went but to be honest I think it's fine. Like I've said before the final choice goes to TWI, all we can do is either support it or not.

 

[!_Zombie_!]

Its unique effectiveness at all ranges. If/when SS gets nerfed, SS won't be the jack of all trades anymore, that would go to Gunslinger.

Saying that this will become the next SS really makes me scream "Overpowered, eh!?!" in my head. A rethinking of that statement, it needs. /yoda

 

[C_Gibby]

Just wanna say YES to the Gunslinger. Pretty much everything BrPhoenix and co. has said regarding the GS backs it up with proper facts. In my view, the Gunslinger is the SS nerf people have been arguing about. We take off SS' ability for close combat, giving it to the GS. The GS is an assiting role, right? He can assist in all fields, yet he's not able to take every situation himself. He's the team player, not Rambo as the name "Gunslinger" suggests. I just hope the idea for GS gets to Tripwire.
I'd say Demoman and Gunslinger is ENOUGH for extra perks. Anyone who says "SMG Specialist" can go home.

We all know a revolver would be nice to have in the game, anyway. (Disregarding arguments about game balance etc.)

 

[Madhate969]

I could even be a cowboy revolver (single action peacemaker, modified to shoot massive bullets)

 

[Undedd Jester]

I did just have a thought. If I'm right people are considering the S&W as the power house weapon in the Pistoleers arsenal, not being as effective against scrakes and FPs as the Xbow, but still packing a good whallop.

My main thought is that the Xbow is so powerful because the LvL 6 Sharpie gets the high damage of the weapons headshot damage +60% Xbow damage from his perk + 50% headshot damage from his per.

The LvL 6 Pistoleer would only have the raw damage of teh S&W + his 60% Pistoler damage. In order for the S&W to even be in the same league its raw damage would have to be HUGE! Or am I missing something? :S

Personally I saw the Pistoleer as a perk capable of doing more damage per shot than a commando with his 50. caliber rounds, being able to chop down groups and being weaker than the sharpshooter per shot, but able to pump out a large number of rounds rather quickly.

It definately needs some defining ability for it to be viable, no idea what that should be but if there isn't one that fits, and all there is is versatility, then the perk serves as a mid gap between the Commando and Sharpshooter. Maybe something involving Gorefasts, since there isn't really a perk that excels at handling them, everyone is just kinda average against them.

I'd like to see this perk implemented, it seems like the best way to nerf the Sharpshooter IMO, but my question is... what is the Pistoleers defining ability?

 

[Neo Mara]

Also the Gunslinger has a jetpack.

 

[Reise]

Also the Gunslinger has a jetpack.

And a Rocketeer helmet.

 

[Taxen]

If the gunslinger is implemented, give it the sharpshooter pistols and bonuses for them, aswell as a higher tier gun.
and give the sharpshooters a new revolver with a nice scope on it, good damage, and slow rate of fire.

personally i voted No, but the sharpshooter should be all about damage / round.

 

[Madhate969]

I though the jet pack was going to be for the fly boy perk

 

[Colt .45 killer]

may i add letting the gunslinger fire all pistols faster?

 

[HaTeMe]

Gunslinger may fit the all-arounder role but his weakness should be that he isn't great at any of those roles.

This means no scoped or automatic weapons, and no perk bonuses that surpass the bonuses of other perks.

Exactly.

And when you think about it, a commando with scar can do pretty good damage to any specimens and still nobody considers him overpowered.

Besides, new perks and weapons are always a good thing as long as they dont shift the balance too much, whats wrong with some variety and more options :/?

 

[Blakatz]

I only voted for YES because sharpies are just too overpowered. A lv6 sharpie with a 9mm can perform as well as a lv6 commando with an Ak47 if used properly (hdshooting). Not to mention its ability to 1hit kill anithing with a xbow.
Also sharpshooters as the name suggest.. is about sharp shooting, being deadly accurate and the 50% hdshot dmg bonus forces the players to always aim for the head.
Dual 9mm and Dual deagle don't really fit with "sharpshooter" since these weapons removes the ability to use iron sight and most people just spams like crazy at close range for a more defensive approach.
sharpshooter already has a ton of weapons (9mm, deagle, LAR, M14 and xbow) and all of these weapons are too effective against different specimens. I think LAR is good enough as sharpy's "general purpose weapon", since it has a decent amount of ammo, a med-high dmg output, cheap and has a good iron sight. However, the weight of LAR or xbow should be adjusted so sharpies can carry both at the same time, given that sharpies don't have 9mm/deagle bonuses anymore.
For me...the purpose of adding gunslinger is to reduce sharpy's ability to fight at close range and become more focused on mid-long range. Whereas the gunslinger becomes a close-mid range fighter.
In my opinion...sharpy's weapons should only be long-barreled like a rifle and has a decent scope/ironsight.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

i voted yes, but i think the gunslinger should be limited to pistols only and have less carry weight.. (ballanced out by letting him carry more pistols)