Making melee combat more realistic!

[evulclown]

Close combat in RO at the moment is a bit of a joke, you run around prodding each other and dancing. If you loose your weapon you run around unable to do anything.

The melee combat should be immersive, realistic and intuitive. I'm aware this is a war game but take a look at games such as "UFC undisputed" for examples of good melee implementation. Melee combat should be as important as weapons combat considering the battle they're covering is afterall the battle of stalingrad.

One of the many documented cases:
Two bodies were found buried in stalingrad, a German soldier and a Russian one. They had stabbed each other and been wrestling when a shell exploded nearby burying them both alive.

The battle of Stalingrad was filled with desperate panic filled, brutal melee combat. This game should reflect that.




Throwing your helmet:
Via using a hotkey like "H" you'd lob your helmet on a low trajectory. This would slightly damage anyone it hits and jog their aim or make them flinch slightly. You could have head damage slightly higher to people without helmets and make the ability to pick up the helmet again. This could buy vital seconds if you're fast enough.




Being able to punch, kick or knee people:
Even if it means having 2 Melee combo buttons. We're not Jackie Chan, but everyone is capable of some form of basic hand to hand combat. Especially an adrenaline pumped desperate soldier.

Example: I've had a friend who bayoneted someones weapon away and trapped them in the toilets. I believe the phrase "Kiss my ring and I’ll let you free" was used...




More bayonet options:
Again, 2 melee buttons would be ideal. This wouldn't make it fiddly but more immersive. One to smack with the butt or stab with the bayonet and one to swipe. You could slash and block bayonet charges with the swipe the other for killing blows.

Instead of dancing about like fairies prodding each other, you'll actually fight like soldiers do. Which would be nice.




Grappling, wrestling and the use of shovels would be a nice touch too. But I feel the above melee options are the most vital to get realistic melee combat.

Opinions?

 

[barakas]

3 melee buttons wouldn't be fiddly?

Are you kidding? How would it even be possible? Left click shoots, right click iron sights, middle click bayonetts. What other buttong are left? G? H?

Adding a melee weapon like a shovel or bayonet unattached to rifle is the only feasible thing to implement.

Soldiers did not start punching each other during gunfights.

The only really realistic sort of melee combat that went on is bayonetting, hitting with rifle butts, and on rare occasion, grappling.

If someone else has a rifle, and you are close enough to hit them, you don't want to be standing there punching them, you want to grab the rifle off them as soon as you can.

If for some reason both soldiers had no weapons, then still grappling, choking, and some striking would be par for the course, and theres no good way of having a power struggle in games with modern controllers.

What would be the situation? You press grapple on an enemy, then you both hammer left click and the one who presses it quickest disarms the other?


Name one game that has implemented a good grappling system.

Ones that even come close, are primarily melee combat games, not realistic WW2 shooters with already complex controls.


Bayonets : yes

Hitting with weapon butt : yes

Using knife / shovel : maybe

grappling : not possible to do well enough

multiple melee buttons : too complicated


I think maybe if a player is completely disarmed, then sprinting at another soldier and left clicking could maybe push or tackle the other soldier to the ground, or knock the gun out of their hands, giving them a chance to run off and find a weapon, but anything else would be far too complicated with just a keyboard and mouse

 

[evulclown]

3 melee buttons wouldn't be fiddly?

Are you kidding? How would it even be possible? Left click shoots, right click iron sights, middle click bayonetts. What other buttong are left? G? H?

Well I don't have the middle mouse button set as my bayonet button, perhaps that's why it wouldn't be an issue for me.

Using the keyboard to melee is second nature to me and another melee key that would add a tactical edge along with realism would be a plus. I'm not after some 5 key combo making melee system, because I agree that's retarded.

2 keys would even be enough, one to "block" or "swipe" the other to stab. set it as your middle mouse button and the spacebar if need be. It's far from complex.

Soldiers did not start punching each other during gunfights.

I'm not requesting stand up boxing matchs, but if you think fists won't get used in melee combat then you're being niave.

Soildiers use whatever comes to hand and if nothing comes to hands -- then their hands. Remember too that this game is modelling the battle of stalingrad where some of the most bitter and desperate close combat of the war took place. Soldiers from both sides believing if they surrender they'll be executed.

The current RO melee system just dosen't do that justice.

If someone else has a rifle, and you are close enough to hit them, you don't want to be standing there punching them, you want to grab the rifle off them as soon as you can.

I agree, and grappling would be ideal, but it's alot harder to implement than the other suggestions hence why I added it at the bottom. Quite simply you need some form of attack though, for when your weapon is shot away -- Hence your fists.

Name one game that has implemented a good grappling system.

I already did and while it's a mixed martial arts game, the amount of buttons used are limited. It's a decent example of grappling implemented correctly and intuitivly -- reguardless of if it's a wargame or not.



Thanks for your opinion, it seems you think something needs to change with the melee system too but are afraid of it getting too complex. You're right, it needs to be kept simple but some small aditions won't make it too fiddly.

 

[LemoN]

and wich 3 buttons have you got in your mind?

a,w,s,d is for mooving, q,e is for leaning,g is for resupplying, f is use, r is reload, c is for crouching, shift is for prone, capslock is for sprinting, tab is for stats ect ect ect

3 buttons are way too complicated imo

 

[evulclown]

and wich 3 buttons have you got in your mind?

\ z space, most mice have side buttons too. People i've talked to have thought 3 is managable. Considering your concerns, perhaps it isn't for everyone, though. As stated above two hotkeys would be more than easy to handle.

one to "stab" one to "block / slash", could be set as space middle mouse as default. I'll edit the original post then.

 

[Mr_125]

If this were Call of Duty, I could see a multiplayer brutal hand-to-hand minigame. Unless Treyarch did it >_>. They screwed up an explosive charge planting minigame.
Anyhow, if a tackle and weapons-dropping feature is implemented, if their bayonets have been equipped, they are SOL. If not, they can pull it out and try to lunge for his enemy. The other player can see the lunge and melee him off, but if he cannot bring his weapon up fast enough, he is knocked down, and they two can engage in a quick hand to hand minigame.
If it was created, it's really too hard to make it a military sim and a fist-fighting sim. I'm thinking sort of twitch action with like a parry/strike with a lethal blow system which takes a few seconds at most, and of course, the faster player will come out the victor if the other player fumbles with the keys and makes a mistake, resulting with a bayonet to the heart or some other way to incapacitate an opponent with bare hands.

 

[Stiler]

The idea of multiple buttons for melee combat could be solved simply by using one button and your mouse via gestures.

You use the middle mouse button (or whatever button you wish) to enter melee mode and as long as you hold it down you simply move your mouse left/right in order to swipe with your bayonet and a up motion to thrust it.

Then you could also go further and have the left mouse button be a grapple button when you are holding the melee button down, then once grappled you have various actions to do such as chocking the person/stabbing them or such.

On top of that yuo also can have the melee burton itself be a quick melee attack if it's simply pressed and not held down.



So that is three different ses for sing one btton and the moes movement.

 

[Oldih]

Throwing your helmet:

Why the **** should I remove my helmet's buckle, which takes already easily several seconds and try to hurl it to someone? Especially when it might protect you from minor objects in the first place.

Besides, germans had such huge helmet fetish in combat conditions that you can sport pictures of even generals wearing helmets in some occasions, sometimes nearby front, and if you check many, many many period photographs, you have quite piss poor ratio for germans wearing helmet and germans not wearing helmet under combat conditions. Russians were bit diffrent though.

Being able to punch, kick or knee people; More bayonet options:

Makes sense more or less.

the use of shovels would be a nice touch too

Yeah, the problem is that it takes too long to remove a shovel from E-tool carrier in melee combat that by the time you get it off and ready to use it the enemy is already taking a coffee brake while you're looking your splattered brain on the wall. Unless you have it stored between your belt and tunic, sure then it's not hard to grab, but then we're going on the line where to draw realism vs gameplay, considering that with 99% of odds majority of the player models are to be modelled with every average gear on them like having semi-marching going on or something like that.

 

[iluvyaman]

The idea of multiple buttons for melee combat could be solved simply by using one button and your mouse via gestures.

You use the middle mouse button (or whatever button you wish) to enter melee mode and as long as you hold it down you simply move your mouse left/right in order to swipe with your bayonet and a up motion to thrust it.

I was thinking about the same thing.
Mount & Blade style melee combat would be nice where you are not only able to attack but also to defend the opponent's attack in multiple direction.

 

[evulclown]

Why the **** should I remove my helmet's buckle, which takes already easily several seconds and try to hurl it to someone? Especially when it might protect you from minor objects in the first place.

Not everyone kept the buckle done up, helmets often obscured visability especially when laying down with german style helmets you'd need to turn them backwards. It paid to just have it on.

Helmets don't stop direct hits from bullets, they're there to stop ricochets near misses falling rubble etc. Aka, of little use to you with someone infront of you that has a gun. Alot more use as a weapon than sitting on your head while you get shot. Helmets were activly used as weapons.

Yeah, the problem is that it takes too long to remove a shovel from E-tool carrier in melee combat that by the time you get it off and ready to use it the enemy is already taking a coffee brake while you're looking your splattered brain on the wall. Unless you have it stored between your belt and tunic, sure then it's not hard to grab, but then we're going on the line where to draw realism vs gameplay, considering that with 99% of odds majority of the player models are to be modelled with every average gear on them like having semi-marching going on or something like that.

Fair point about the player models. But going into situations where you know there's a chance of melee combat, yea they'd have it poking through the belt for easy access. Confining features to the player models webbing set up might not be great though.

 

[Oldih]

Not everyone kept the buckle done up, helmets often obscured visability especially when laying down with german style helmets you'd need to turn them backwards. It paid to just have it on.

True, but considering how easy it is for a helmet to fall (unless you adjust the liner so damm tight your head hurts) and considering how many kept them buckle done up, it is again more of an exception most of the time.

Helmets don't stop direct hits from bullets, they're there to stop ricochets near misses falling rubble etc. Aka, of little use to you with someone infront of you that has a gun. Alot more use as a weapon than sitting on your head while you get shot. Helmets were activly used as weapons.

I don't recall mentioning that it would protect you from a bullet, unless you get really lucky at range. It's far more important to protect your head from falling small stuff as you mentioned, but also having to open the buckle and get your helmet off in the first place can take easily several seconds in a hurry and even if the buckle ain't done up, it still might be stuck on your head more or less and the time it takes you to remove and effectively use it as a weapon you have beter chances of using your fist to smack the other guys nose or teeth before you can even get your helmet off, presuming you are close enough.

It is true more or less that helmets and entrenchment tools were used as melee weapons in some situations, but it's also worth noticing how often such situations requires rather desperate condition or very odd situation in the first place.

It could be compared that while in 1945 german soldiers were sometimes issued ammunition made of lacquered steel (which often jamned the gun or had other disastrous effects), doesn't mean everyone got their share of 'fun'

 

[Colt .45 killer]

grandparent in law (what would that be once removed?) fought for the germans in ww2, fought in stalingrad, and tells a tale of using old muskets that they found firing any small ballshaped object they could get their hands on (their buttons worked quite well).

so in the context of stalingrad, yes anything goes, some interesting melee is something to look into. However i should say that with online lag this is much harder... (most good melee games are single player or console game with no lag because your playing against somone sitting next to you)