And even the tanks are steering to fast. Steel monsters with tons of weight should react much slower when hitting a turning key.
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And even the tanks are steering to fast. Steel monsters with tons of weight should react much slower when hitting a turning key.
I agree. The BA64 on the Alte Ziegelei map promotes all sorts of gamey tactics. The worst of the gameyness being Clown Car panzer hunting -- haul a$$ to the rear of a panther and toss a satchel onto the rear deck, or fire a pzf into the flank. I don't play Germans much, but this is the biggest complaint I hear from players about an otherwise excellent map.
The other alternative is as TT33 suggests. Limiting use of satchel charges to those trained with explosives. Limit carrying capacity to one (1) satchel. The dang thing is 10-lbs after all. That combined with a normal combat load makes the carrying of two of these things pretty gamey -- Duke Nuke'Um'ish. Or: let dudes carry two -- but restrict movement capability -- like they cant sprint or whatever. I'd also suggest limiting the numbers of panzerfausts a soldier can carry to one or two -- but if 2 than the soldier can't sprint.
Personally I'd improve pzf penetration and behind armor effects. But that's a different story.
The other option would be to dramatically increase the time it takes to dismount and mount a vehicle. I did my share of climbing in and out of M48s and M60s and folks don't fly out of tanks with SMGs or panzerfausts at the ready. That's plain silly. Increase dismount time from vehicles to say 8 or 10 seconds. That would go along way toward removing the extremely gamey Clown Car panzerjager teams that have become standard operating procedure on the AZ map.
My interest in RO was originally sparked by the desire of the game designers to create a more realistic, more historically oriented simulation. Watching a Clown Car chasing a Panther around waiting for the Panther to stop so a satchel can be tossed on its deck not only seems far fetched but also seems far removed from the design intent of this simulation. Yet I see this type of thing on a regular basis. This sort of gamey tactic spoils the simulation aspects of the design.
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And even the tanks are steering to fast. Steel monsters with tons of weight should react much slower when hitting a turning key.
Particularly Panthers and Tigers. Let players turn fast, but when they do there is some probability of throwing a track or breaking the final drive.
I'd also add neutral steer capability for those German tanks that were capble of doing it. Neutral steer is extremely useful in a tank.
Let the T34 do dead track "pivot" steer -- sort of a poor mans neutral steer.
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Total aside -- but perhaps there should also be some sort of scenario building point system associated with the SDK. I mean a way for level designers to gauge map balance. I mention this as someone tweaked my Maslova Map and called it Maslova Heavy Tanks. They didn't ask me first -- they just did it, and they weren't even Russians. Unfortunately it is the same old silly force mix of hundreds of Tigers and Panthers vs. IS2. How many times does this type of scenario have to be done on an RO Tank Map???
I like the force mix on AZ -- makes some sense from a historical perspective. Throw in 1 to 3 heavies per side for flavor. Also -- LIMIT RESPAWN NUMBERS FOR HEAVIES and PANTHERs! Make the vast majority of the force pool T34s, SU-76s (SU-85 would be nice) Stugs, MkIVs and MkIIIs. There is not much point to heavy tanks in a scenario if every tank on the map is a heavy tank.
Increase the players point reward for killing Heavies and Panthers.
Asign each vehicle and each soldier a point value. Panther is worth 250-pts, tiger 300 points, IS2 -- 275 points, T34/76 75points, T34/85 175 points, etc etc. or whatever. This gives the casual map maker or non-historian a sense of how to balance the force mix and scenario on his RO map. For meeting engagment scenarios -- ala AZ, Debrecen, Pripet, etc, the final point value for both sides force mix should be relatively equal.
I like the force mix on AZ -- makes some sense from a historical perspective. Throw in 1 to 3 heavies per side for flavor. Also -- LIMIT RESPAWN NUMBERS FOR HEAVIES and PANTHERs! Make the vast majority of the force pool T34s, SU-76s (SU-85 would be nice) Stugs, MkIVs and MkIIIs. There is not much point to heavy tanks in a scenario if every tank on the map is a heavy tank.
Increase the players point reward for killing Heavies and Panthers.
Asign each vehicle and each soldier a point value. Panther is worth 250-pts, tiger 300 points, IS2 -- 275 points, T34/76 75points, T34/85 175 points, etc etc. or whatever. This gives the casual map maker or non-historian a sense of how to balance the force mix and scenario on his RO map. For meeting engagment scenarios -- ala AZ, Debrecen, Pripet, etc, the final point value for both sides force mix should be relatively equal.
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Pretty neat idea there are lots of things that can and hopefully will be improved regarding mapdesign.
The other option would be to make mapping harder So it needs more time and determination to make a map
The other option would be to make mapping harder
So it needs more time and determination to make a map
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I completely agree with Jeff. I can't tell you how many times on steel beasts, Arad, Alte Ziegelei that I've been warned a clown car is following me around. The way to combat them is to jump out of your tank and try and gun them down before they toss their satchel, and that just forced you to be as gamey as the clown car turd. Maybe give German tanks commander hatch MG34's. I dunno..
What I've noticed lately is at the start of the map two people will mount up on one clown car and race to cap checkpoints where one would be dropped off, while the other one would race ahead to another checkpoint. Most of the tank maps have two clown cars so you're talking 4 checkpoints capped in a very short time. On the German side we're like how the fark did they cap so quick, and we also had the problem of dealing with a satchel throwing russkie when we pull into the cap zone in our tanks. I figured out how they were capping so quick when I switched sides for a round.
What I've noticed lately is at the start of the map two people will mount up on one clown car and race to cap checkpoints where one would be dropped off, while the other one would race ahead to another checkpoint. Most of the tank maps have two clown cars so you're talking 4 checkpoints capped in a very short time. On the German side we're like how the fark did they cap so quick, and we also had the problem of dealing with a satchel throwing russkie when we pull into the cap zone in our tanks. I figured out how they were capping so quick when I switched sides for a round.
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BubbaG said:
Yeah the ba-64 acts very gamey in RO I would have avoided putting it in and given the russians the Zis-5v truck or just the UC.It also does not help that the russian spawn is full of stachel weapon spawns (for every single person on the team theoredically the tankers can also be satchelers) and a sniper rifle spawn as well not to mention the easy access to panzerfauts and more satchels in capzones for easy resupply for the Ba-64 drivers.
lastly the BA-64 is a recon vehicle!!!!!! It should only try to fight enemies if it has to not speed towards them and re-capture vast territories it is quite humorous that it can do that atm.
Yes it has buggged me since "orel" map verison explosions a while back nobody can get enough of the 1944ish tank arrangement to me it makes me stay away especially if the map was an (badly) edited map I thought was great before for example RO-bdj_heavy and of course Ro-orel.jeffdequette said:
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I think, there wont be any problems, if you will get hurt, when you jump out the vehicle while driving fast, as it is in FH 2. Additionally I like the feature, they did in MN, that you can only jump out, when tank is opened. That would solve all problems.
The clown car should not be removed and the K
The clown car should not be removed and the K
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The other simple solution is to limit the number of respawns available for BA64s. The problem is AZ is a combined arms map with large spaces for tank manuever with a few key points that are condusive to infantry fighting. If you eliminate the BA64 or limit respawn than Soviet infantry types are limited to "getting to the front" via slow moving universal carriers. And maybe that's OK. But it sort of disuades Russian side players from picking infantry. Maybe add trucks as a compromise. Or make spawn points for infantry types only and put these infantry respawn only areas closer to the action on big tank maps. I guess I don't get why there is a Tank Crewmen respawn point Only, but not a Infantry respawn Point Only.
It would alsio be nice to see tanks being able to "easily" ferry infantry ala the BT-7 tank mod. I think that was sort SOP for Soviet tank infantry -- i.e. ride to the front on the back of a T34.
It would alsio be nice to see tanks being able to "easily" ferry infantry ala the BT-7 tank mod. I think that was sort SOP for Soviet tank infantry -- i.e. ride to the front on the back of a T34.
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jeffduquette said:
Well the Germans are stuck sending their infantry on slow moving halftracks atm as well although maybe asking DH for the use of the American M3 half-track (lead-lease) would be a good idea. There is always the option of trying to fix some of the Ba's faults through the code I posted a list earlier if someone is interrested but I think totally replacing it with the Zis-5v is probably easier to do and would definetly reduce the head-aches the clown car poses or at least reduce it to 1 very long spawning vehicle.
jeffduquette said:
This is the best way to get Soviet infantry to the front its not too difficult but it would require to re-code the t-34's as well as anyother vehicles that you want to do this to.
About the tanks in Alte/RO it would be really nice if the ISU-152 and the AHz tanks ( Stug III B, KV's) were converted to Armored beasts code. I read Amzaur and shurek where working on this (the ISU anyways) I think amzuar left AB for good this time though. If anyone has news on the subject it would be appreciated.
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That is a nice addition. (there is a good thread about it on the MN forums).
Dispite my annoyance of the CCar suicide bomb attack, I can see it's appeal to the infrantry types, & on some maps it's the only thing the allies have going for them to give them a chance.
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I would like to see the soviets given more vehicles to chose from in Alte Ziegelei. I think that's one of the ways to keep the sides more balanced. I can't tell you how many times I've been playing German and someone types "teams" in the chat bar. I'll check the players list and sure enough there are way more Germans then Rrussians. Even though I had been playing the German side long before other players logged on I'll switch to try and even up the teams.
It would be nice if the Russian side added the KV-1 and maybe the SU-85. I do like Jeff's suggestion though to steer away from having so many heavies in the game. I would love a Alte Ziegelei map where the Germans had the choice of:
PzIVf-2
PzIIIL
StugIII (short barrelled 75mm)
Halftrack
Russians:
T-34/76
BA64
Universal Carrier
KV-1
BT-7
There would be only one spawnable KV-1 active at any one time. Once it was destroyed then another one would take it's place at the spawn area.
It would be nice if the Russian side added the KV-1 and maybe the SU-85. I do like Jeff's suggestion though to steer away from having so many heavies in the game. I would love a Alte Ziegelei map where the Germans had the choice of:
PzIVf-2
PzIIIL
StugIII (short barrelled 75mm)
Halftrack
Russians:
T-34/76
BA64
Universal Carrier
KV-1
BT-7
There would be only one spawnable KV-1 active at any one time. Once it was destroyed then another one would take it's place at the spawn area.
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Another easy fix is to eliminate the Soviet Engineers and Satchels on maps where there are no destructible objects like bridges, they have the PRTD for AT use. Also just don't put both the engineers/satchels on the same map with the BA64. Things like this can easily remove some of the gaminess that works against the spirit of the game.
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in defence of the klown car, i have to say i have hillarious memories of sitting in a team tanked tiger with a WTF face on when i saw a ba 64 driving at me with a driver, mg, and two chums standing on the hood. course a second later they drove by me and the guys on the hood threw satchels, i cant remember if i died or not.
In reality the satchel shouldent damage a tank, thats what needs to be fixed,you can never stop people from having a good laugh, or well you can but then the game sucks...
In a weird way i kind of like having a few quirks in the game, the armored cars are one of them, although never used as intended, they were quite fun to drive (Expecially when you knew how to right one from on its side) The most memorable moment i have in a clown car was on orel, By counting between tank shots you could tell when to turn to dodge the tank shells, well i waited a bit two long for one so when i turned hard my car was on two wheels (hey i was dodging others at the same time), so his shell went under my car and hit the ground a few hundred meters up, almost looked like i had a tank gun in my grill which had just fired a tank round.
In reality the satchel shouldent damage a tank, thats what needs to be fixed,you can never stop people from having a good laugh, or well you can but then the game sucks...
In a weird way i kind of like having a few quirks in the game, the armored cars are one of them, although never used as intended, they were quite fun to drive (Expecially when you knew how to right one from on its side) The most memorable moment i have in a clown car was on orel, By counting between tank shots you could tell when to turn to dodge the tank shells, well i waited a bit two long for one so when i turned hard my car was on two wheels (hey i was dodging others at the same time), so his shell went under my car and hit the ground a few hundred meters up, almost looked like i had a tank gun in my grill which had just fired a tank round.
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