Forum Opinion on Tank Bailing Poll
- Thread starter Mormegil
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You're right Ludwig, it IS a well said. After all, bailed tankers running off and trying to cap objectives or hiding in bushes is not an intended game mechanic.
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Good job missing the point of Knil's post, which is that there should be incentives and punishments that ENCOURAGE players to play as intended, rather than FORCING them. Forcing players to do something is never a good thing unless it's the absolute last alternative.
Also, I like how you guys keep bringing up the issue of tankers fighting on foot even though it has already been thoroughly discussed how simple it would be to give players a huge incentive NOT to do this. Ignoring counter arguments and restating your own: it's like a verbal banzai charge. You've lost the firefight, but at least you can hope to disrupt the enemy line before you go down.
The only real argument here against tank bailing is the issue of effort-vs.-reward. Maybe we should talk about that. I concede that if TW feels the effort is to great versus the reward, there's nothing I can say to change their minds given they already have set priorities and goals.
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I'll be encouraged not to let my tank be damaged, due to the punishment of not being allowed to continue on as an infantryman.
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As people have said previously in this thread, it was not uncommon for tankers to dismount just to observe without exposing their own tank. A friend of mine who was part of an Abrams crew for 2 years and is now training new crewmen told me that it's still commonplace to have to dismount for many different reasons.
If you want to give up and respawn when your tank is disabled or about to be destroyed, that's great for you. I don't want that decision made for me. It's not like you couldn't just suicide and grab the next tank that respawns if you think it would do your team more good. But on occasion you can do some real good on foot once you've bailed.
It's sad to see RO reduced to removing realistic features to encourage realism... I seriously hope they aren't applying this sort of thinking to other aspects of Heroes.
I do care about the welfare of my team. I have always cared more about completing the objectives than my ratio (though that is important as well to avoid being a drain on team reinforcements). If I am not in a position to do any good I simply suicide and get in my tank when it respawns. Nothing selfish about giving players the choice to continue on foot. Also, isn't amusement the ENTIRE POINT of playing video games (unless you're one of those virtual reenactor people).
Edit for content: The real problem with the current system is that a tanker who decides not to kill himself if he finds himself in the middle of an open field with no possibility of doing anything for his team will deprive them of a much needed crewman. Rather than forcing people to stay in their tanks or scuttle them and magically teleport back to spawn, you could simply put a time limit on how long a tanker can keep his class after getting out of his tank. So if he were to get in a tank and get out his class slot would open up to the rest of the team and he'd lose the right to spawn as a tanker after about 90-180 seconds on foot.
If you want to give up and respawn when your tank is disabled or about to be destroyed, that's great for you. I don't want that decision made for me. It's not like you couldn't just suicide and grab the next tank that respawns if you think it would do your team more good. But on occasion you can do some real good on foot once you've bailed.
It's sad to see RO reduced to removing realistic features to encourage realism... I seriously hope they aren't applying this sort of thinking to other aspects of Heroes.
Grobut said:
I do care about the welfare of my team. I have always cared more about completing the objectives than my ratio (though that is important as well to avoid being a drain on team reinforcements). If I am not in a position to do any good I simply suicide and get in my tank when it respawns. Nothing selfish about giving players the choice to continue on foot. Also, isn't amusement the ENTIRE POINT of playing video games (unless you're one of those virtual reenactor people).
Edit for content: The real problem with the current system is that a tanker who decides not to kill himself if he finds himself in the middle of an open field with no possibility of doing anything for his team will deprive them of a much needed crewman. Rather than forcing people to stay in their tanks or scuttle them and magically teleport back to spawn, you could simply put a time limit on how long a tanker can keep his class after getting out of his tank. So if he were to get in a tank and get out his class slot would open up to the rest of the team and he'd lose the right to spawn as a tanker after about 90-180 seconds on foot.
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You would be encouraged not to let your tank be damaged because your tank is vastly superior in protection and firepower than a tanker on foot with nothing but a pistol.
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Question: If we agree that Tankers should not be encouraged to play as infantry, then why does it need to be possible in the first place? Woulden't putting it in there be all for it's own sake? And considdering the effort it would be to do it right, a rather large waste of development time for something the game does not want to encourage anyway?
Little details are nice and all, i felt it was kinda cool that you could take a wizz in a toilet in Duke3D, sure, it was kinda funny they let you do it, but it's all for it's own sake, and this isen't a simple sprite that would have to be drawn and a 5 minute code job, but a large amount of work, for something you don't want to encourage anyway, and then have to spend even more time coding punishments for to disuade people from doing it in the first place..
"Effort versus reward" is right on the money, and it's not like TWI would get anything out of doing it either, because even if they do spend all the time to put it in there, and make sure it doesen't get abused in gamey ways, nobody's going to commend them for it, instead, people will come here and whine about how they can't dismount and go play Rambo like in the Battlefield games, and how grossly unrealistic it is that their Tanker guy can't be as usefull on foot as the infantry, how the feature is practically useless, and how unfun it is that you're only real goal when bailing would be running back to spawn or commit suicide, and that they might aswell not have bothered because it's
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I know.
That is why I added "I don't think so" which was referring to Game2.
I kinda like this thread btw.
Thanks.
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Some have said this is well said. It could be but you (and others) have not followed thru with any suggestions (specific to exiting). That would be the same as saying there should be no exiting without giving any reasons why except stating that there should be no exiting. Do you or others have any suggestions, or perhaps reasons why there should be exiting that can be debated with the reasons for not allowing it?
This is a very good way of putting it.
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What about reinforcement when you scuttle a tank? Is the crew considered dead or safe (exemple when you are at 0%) ?
Maybe, when you have no more reinforcement... Did you stay inside the tank until his destruction?
A good way for authorizing the crew to bail out is if a member can reach safely a capzone behind the frontline, the tank can respawn closer to the battle. If all the member die, the tank respawn further so that take more time to join the battle with a new one.
But, of course, it's necessary for that to have good animations when a crew bail out.
Like that, the ennemy can take a little advantage to prevent them to escape from the battle safely
(sorry for my poor english)
Maybe, when you have no more reinforcement... Did you stay inside the tank until his destruction?
A good way for authorizing the crew to bail out is if a member can reach safely a capzone behind the frontline, the tank can respawn closer to the battle. If all the member die, the tank respawn further so that take more time to join the battle with a new one.
But, of course, it's necessary for that to have good animations when a crew bail out.
Like that, the ennemy can take a little advantage to prevent them to escape from the battle safely
(sorry for my poor english)
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Haha, I went down one bar in rep because of this thread due to my minority opinion. Awesome.
Too much logic for some people to handle.
Too much logic for some people to handle.
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Haha, I went down one bar in rep because of this thread due to my minority opinion. Awesome.
Too much logic for some people to handle.
Yup, it seems that your inability to handle logic has decreased your rep bars
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Haha, I went down one bar in rep because of this thread due to my minority opinion. Awesome.
Too much logic for some people to handle.
U should be frightened.
Some ninjas are destroying ur rep bar mate.
It stinks conspiracy
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If you think of the tank not the crew counting towards reinforcements it doesn't really matter what happens to them. When you respawn you are a completely different tank and crew. You many have to watch when it gets down to the wire if it is worth sculling but if that's the case you probably already lost anyway.
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Here's why I think people should be able to bail:
The reason for allowing people to exit the tank is more the ability to do the action and not that it is a viable action, giving you freedom and immersion that you are a person in a tank and NOT just a tank.
Here's how to prevent people from doing it for the wrong reasons:
-Tank crew would only be armed with a pistol and have decreased accuracy and reload speed because they are not a trained footsoldier, even heavier penalties if they pick up another weapon.
-Outside the tank they would not count towards capping a point.
-Exiting animations to stop quickly jumping out to avoid death.
-K/D is based on kills only in the tank and when the tank is destroyed is counted as a death.
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IMO the reasons why people want tank exiting do NOT hold water. If I'm correct these are the reasons why they want tank exiting:
You can. Just scuttle your tank.
This is a realism game.
You really think that it would be fun to run all the way back to spawn...?
This is just a weak argument. That's like saying "I'm a rifleman and want to drive a tank, don't force me to play as infantry!". If you don't want to be "forced" to be in a tank, then simply don't select the tanker role.
Seriously? There is no reason to bail out and most players don't even know how to access the console, let alone know all the commands. Killing yourself to get back to friendly lines and continue fighting. How many times do you think that happened in real-life?
Sure, these penalties would be: not having any capping power, not being able to swap your pistol for other weapons so you can't Rambo, having to run all the way back to spawn for a new tank, etc... now the only reason to exit the tank is to hide in a bush.
This is the only reasonable argument for tank exiting I can think of. But even then, you can go hull-down and stick your head out of the turret without exposing your tank. Even if TWI would add tank exiting for the scouting ahead reason alone, would the gameyness that comes with it (see RO:O) really be worth it? No. The pros of keeping the tankers in the tank outweigh the one con.
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I think everyone should calm down and wait for the beta result. Then we will see honest opinions based on the actual gameplay.
Right now no one knows how this will play out.
Right now no one knows how this will play out.
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On scouting ahead. I agree this would be the only reason to unmount from the tank. Unfortunately, being hull or even turret down isn't always an option. Think about forested maps, or if you want to go around a building without exposing your tank.
For this reason, I'd like to see ONLY the commander be allowed to unmount, and if the tank gets blown up, they respawn with the tank. Of course no cap power for the unmounted commander. Maybe I'll put this in the suggestions.
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