Zoom

[Recoup]

Atomskytten. You have little understanding of three-dimensional perspective. You can't just go measuring things as they will not give you correct values.

Recoup. You have little understanding of the zoom function. I advise both not to continue in further argumentation with Phoenix Dragon, as he has much more understanding. Still, he will probably be a gentleman and will try and explain again?

I believe my observational skills of using zoom to close my vision around my iron sights is not something that requires more or less understanding of the function in and of itself. Do not belittle someone else in order to discredit what they've said, as it adds nothing of merit to the discussion or tells me why I should be wrong in this case.

r5cya is right, of course, that popping your eyes out of your head doesn't give you the same results - I was being silly and thinking in terms of cartoon physics. However holding one's breath when aiming does not create the conditions that are created in the game. Everyone lived with this function in RO:OST, why is there such adamant desire to keep it?

hockeywarrior hit it on the head.

 

[Sarkis.]

I was being silly and thinking in terms of cartoon physics

You have your answer. The little variation of zoom from 1.9x to 2.3x when controlling breath should go however. But it is probably there for lack of a better way to control zoom. We need dedicated zoom control binds. And freedom to zoom to 2.3x whenever we want, suppressed or not.

 

[Recoup]

You have your answer. The little variation of zoom from 1.9x to 2.3x when controlling breath should go however. But it is probably there for lack of a better way to control zoom. We need dedicated zoom control binds. And freedom to zoom to 2.3x whenever we want, suppressed or not.

Thank you for taking that quote out of context. You seem to have summed up your critique of my post with such an act.

 

[The_Wanderer]

There is nothing about your virtual character's brain focusing on an image that your actual brains are not already doing, when you are looking at your screens.
There is no such concept in games. It can't actually be reproduced. Take zoom for what it is: Seeing things as big as they should when that is interesting, and seeing things as detailed as they should, when also interesting. There is no such thing as predator vision. When you go from 1.0x to 2.3x zoom, your character is not gaining anything new that you in your real life did not have in the first place, all the time. The right way to interpret it is that we have an Unzoom feature. Because if we saw stuff in a 1:1 ratio in game all the time, we would not see ours surroundings, having a terrible field of vision.

Well said, there is nothing wrong with zoom. I wouldn't also mind if it was implemented in classic as well.

 

[Barleyman]

Well said, there is nothing wrong with zoom. I wouldn't also mind if it was implemented in classic as well.

And the fact this needs to be said over and over again demonstrates Proud God's claim the majority of the zoom-haters understand why it's there is just not true.

 

[Proud_God]

And the fact this needs to be said over and over again demonstrates Proud God's claim the majority of the zoom-haters understand why it's there is just not true.

Remember I am not a zoom-hater I think it improves games like RO2. But I consider it a necessary evil to achieve more realistic gunplay (untill better hardware maybe?)
When people talk about zoom being like binoculars, you have to understand they are not talking about magnification levels being like IRL binoculars (because as we all know, they are much smaller). They are talking about the transition of going from one magnification level to another on command being like looking through a binocular. And that is a valid point, and a downside of zoom. For some people this downside plays a bigger role than for others, apparently.

 

[r5cya]

They are talking about the transition of going from one magnification level to another on command being like looking through a binocular. And that is a valid point, and a downside of zoom. For some people this downside plays a bigger role than for others, apparently.

please remind me, how are "they" suggesting we get the acurate vision of zoom, without the "binocular" transition?

 

[Proud_God]

please remind me, how are "they" suggesting we get the acurate vision of zoom, without the "binocular" transition?

You can't, that's the point!

 

[r5cya]

You can't, that's the point!

thanks. i hope they can get used to it then. because having to have a "transition" to get to a real life type of vision, "zoom", is not going to go away. (Maybe in classic. not realism)

 

[Atomskytten]

please remind me, how are "they" suggesting we get the acurate vision of zoom, without the "binocular" transition?

There is a pretty straightforward way of doing that where an area in the center of the screen is either constantly magnified or if toggleable if the player so desire and that method have been used in games more than 10 years ago where it worked quite well. Mechwarrior 3 for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=t2F8wqZkf7M#t=35s

The magnification is toggleable in this game as you can see and the player have the benefit of the full unzoomed F.O.V. and zoom at the firing arc at the same time. It was and is an effective method of firing at long range targets while maintaining situational awareness - even better than the situational awareness obtained in RO2. There should be no reason why this method should not work in RO2 or other first person shooters as well.

Hope this answers your question.

 

[Proud_God]

That is pretty straightforward way of doing that where an area in the center of the screen is either constantly magnified or if toggleable if the player so desire and that method have been used in games more than 10 years ago where it worked quite well. Mechwarrior 3 for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=t2F8wqZkf7M#t=35s

The magnification is toggleable in this game as you can see and the player have the benefit of the full unzoomed F.O.V. and zoom at the firing arc at the same time. It was and is an effective method of firing at long range targets while maintaining situational awareness - even better than the situational awareness obtained in RO2. There should be no reason why this method should not work in RO2 or other first person shooters as well.

Hope this answers your question.

That is very interesting imo, and I have been thinking about this for some time in the context of RO2 as well. Zoom would become less of a tool you would use to scan the area, and more a tool for taking long range shots, without the issues of narrow FoV. Would love to experiment with that.

 

[Mekhazzio]

please remind me, how are "they" suggesting we get the acurate vision of zoom, without the "binocular" transition?

You can't, that's the point!

You can fudge it, by trying to provide the same information in a different way. A favorite of flight sims 20 years ago (and still around in modern ones) was colored pips and floating text labels. Of course, that was a solution for an empty sky, in a ground game, you'd get the spotting but would still be leaving out terrain detail and aiming accuracy...and I doubt anyone would argue that's a less immersion-breaking solution than zoom.

an area in the center of the screen is either constantly magnified or if toggleable

Ew.
A) That's still zoom, so it still wouldn't pacify the people complaining about a transition.
B) TANSTAAFL. That method creates a "donut" of blocked view. You keep the edges, but lose everything around the aimpoint. I suspect most people prefer having the latter. Did you ever see the release version G41 scope? It was basically this, and it got a lot of hate.
C) This method has a much higher performance cost than zooming the entire view due to two different rendering cameras running at once. Noticed how scoped weapons hit your framerate? Same thing here.

 

[Proud_God]

You can fudge it, by trying to provide the same information in a different way. A favorite of flight sims 20 years ago (and still around in modern ones) was colored pips and floating text labels. Of course, that was a solution for an empty sky, in a ground game, you'd get the spotting but would still be leaving out terrain detail and aiming accuracy...and I doubt anyone would argue that's a less immersion-breaking solution than zoom.
Ew.
A) That's still zoom, so it still wouldn't pacify the people complaining about a transition.
B) TANSTAAFL. That method creates a "donut" of blocked view. You keep the edges, but lose everything around the aimpoint. I suspect most people prefer having the latter. Did you ever see the release version G41 scope? It was basically this, and it got a lot of hate.
C) This method has a much higher performance cost than zooming the entire view due to two different rendering cameras running at once. Noticed how scoped weapons hit your framerate? Same thing here.

Yes, I doubt it would be practical. Also it might work for games with a crosshair like Mech Warrior, but in RO2, your gun would be 'broken' by the magnifer. And yet...

 

[Barleyman]

Remember I am not a zoom-hater I think it improves games like RO2. But I consider it a necessary evil to achieve more realistic gunplay (untill better hardware maybe?)
When people talk about zoom being like binoculars, you have to understand they are not talking about magnification levels being like IRL binoculars (because as we all know, they are much smaller).

Nobody claimed you hate un-zoom, I just don't agree with the assesment most people having a problem with it understand the reason. We have had "binocular eagle-eye vision"-argument in this very thread.

In any case, the problem is not going to go away until we can all add 2 more monitors for peripheral vision plus jack up DPI a fair bit. The latter seems unlikely as it has little return of investment for vast majority of uses and users but cost goes up a lot while the yield plummets. Never mind the GPU processing hit of pushing 4 to 9 times the pixels per screen. I'd hate to use the word "never" but I just don't see it happening anytime soon. Display tech moves in a glacial pace compared to, say, processing power.

We've gone from 1024x768 displays to 1920x1080 in two decades, big whoop.
I got 1920x1200 myself instead, those vertical pixels matter more than most people would think.. Already such a minor improvement pushes the display to "enthusiastic" niche. At least IPS is slowly replacing TN.

You CAN do high-DPI display like Ipad 3 has but yield would be horrible in large sizes and the benefits for most things people use computers for just aren't there.

 

[>< f4ct0r...13]

Leave zoom out of classic. Realism can have as much zoom as it wants, as it's already completely sacked in the authenticity department.

 

[Kleist]

Leave zoom out of classic. Realism can have as much zoom as it wants, as it's already completely sacked in the authenticity department.

Yeah we need to try this out.

Would be nice if server admins can use the no-zoom settings as a official mutator, or something like that. So people don

 

[PhoenixDragon]

Leave zoom out of classic. Realism can have as much zoom as it wants, as it's already completely sacked in the authenticity department.

Because being able to see any details of a person at 150m, in the open, is so un-authentic?

 

[r5cya]

Because being able to see any details of a person at 150m, in the open, is so un-authentic?

here's a soloution to the zoom proble. just pretend you're like me. my vision is to the point that i can't make out details at 150 meters. then i put the glasses on and i can.
now everyone who hates the transition, could just pretend they put their glasses on.

 

[PhoenixDragon]

here's a soloution to the zoom proble. just pretend you're like me. my vision is to the point that i can't make out details at 150 meters. then i put the glasses on and i can.
now everyone who hates the transition, could just pretend they put their glasses on.

Heh, there is that, yeah. I think I can see better IRL without my contacts than we can in-game without zooming :>

 

[Proud_God]

here's a soloution to the zoom proble. just pretend you're like me. my vision is to the point that i can't make out details at 150 meters. then i put the glasses on and i can.
now everyone who hates the transition, could just pretend they put their glasses on.

That's it! And in Classic the glasses are built onto the guns!
r5cya, always bringing the most unexpected solutions